[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

Trump - kurtster - Jan 15, 2021 - 10:02pm
 
Breaking News - ScottN - Jan 15, 2021 - 8:53pm
 
2020 Elections - haresfur - Jan 15, 2021 - 8:44pm
 
Baby words that stuck in your family - Manbird - Jan 15, 2021 - 8:06pm
 
COVID-19 - haresfur - Jan 15, 2021 - 3:17pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - ColdMiser - Jan 15, 2021 - 2:44pm
 
Things You Thought Today - Isabeau - Jan 15, 2021 - 2:30pm
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Jan 15, 2021 - 2:29pm
 
Our tolerance for opposing views - Isabeau - Jan 15, 2021 - 2:14pm
 
What is the meaning of this? - Isabeau - Jan 15, 2021 - 2:00pm
 
Climate Change - R_P - Jan 15, 2021 - 12:47pm
 
Flim Festivals on Now - rhahl - Jan 15, 2021 - 10:37am
 
Vocabulary Quiz - rhahl - Jan 15, 2021 - 10:22am
 
what the hell, miamizsun? - oldviolin - Jan 15, 2021 - 10:20am
 
What the hell OV? - miamizsun - Jan 15, 2021 - 9:51am
 
Physics questions - oldviolin - Jan 15, 2021 - 8:56am
 
Classical Music - rhahl - Jan 15, 2021 - 6:48am
 
Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? - miamizsun - Jan 15, 2021 - 6:10am
 
RightWingNutZ - Red_Dragon - Jan 15, 2021 - 5:55am
 
Back to the 10's - rhahl - Jan 15, 2021 - 5:37am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - sunybuny - Jan 15, 2021 - 5:22am
 
Museum Of Bad Album Covers - Proclivities - Jan 15, 2021 - 4:58am
 
Twitter's finest moment - Jiggz - Jan 15, 2021 - 1:28am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - oldviolin - Jan 14, 2021 - 8:14pm
 
What The Hell Buddy? - oldviolin - Jan 14, 2021 - 8:09pm
 
In My Room - oldviolin - Jan 14, 2021 - 7:58pm
 
Trump Lies - R_P - Jan 14, 2021 - 7:42pm
 
Looting & vandalism isn't protest - R_P - Jan 14, 2021 - 5:25pm
 
Insane-looking Lawyers - rhahl - Jan 14, 2021 - 4:14pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 14, 2021 - 2:54pm
 
Joe Biden - black321 - Jan 14, 2021 - 2:07pm
 
Race in America - sirdroseph - Jan 14, 2021 - 12:32pm
 
New Music - R_P - Jan 14, 2021 - 12:11pm
 
hallucinogenic drugs - sirdroseph - Jan 14, 2021 - 11:09am
 
Back to the 90's - rgio - Jan 14, 2021 - 7:47am
 
Concept Albums - oldviolin - Jan 14, 2021 - 7:34am
 
Democratic Party - kurtster - Jan 14, 2021 - 6:17am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Jan 14, 2021 - 5:31am
 
Capital Punishment - R_P - Jan 13, 2021 - 8:54pm
 
Biden Crime Family - westslope - Jan 13, 2021 - 6:59pm
 
2 questions. - miamizsun - Jan 13, 2021 - 5:30pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - haresfur - Jan 13, 2021 - 5:12pm
 
Impeachment Time: - R_P - Jan 13, 2021 - 2:49pm
 
Back to the 60's - kcar - Jan 13, 2021 - 2:45pm
 
Oh, The Stupidity - R_P - Jan 13, 2021 - 2:16pm
 
Know your memes - black321 - Jan 13, 2021 - 12:02pm
 
Republican Party - miamizsun - Jan 13, 2021 - 10:53am
 
The Global War on Terror - westslope - Jan 13, 2021 - 9:36am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - Jan 13, 2021 - 8:11am
 
Great guitar faces - yuel - Jan 13, 2021 - 6:37am
 
DQ (as in 'Daily Quote') - miamizsun - Jan 13, 2021 - 4:41am
 
• • • Poopoo • • • - miamizsun - Jan 13, 2021 - 4:15am
 
Social Media Are Changing Everything - Red_Dragon - Jan 12, 2021 - 7:00pm
 
Those Lovable Policemen - haresfur - Jan 12, 2021 - 5:26pm
 
The death penalty on trial? - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 4:41pm
 
Live Music - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 3:39pm
 
The Obituary Page - rhahl - Jan 12, 2021 - 2:04pm
 
Military Matters - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 2:00pm
 
Dear Retail Fashion Industry - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 1:30pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - R_P - Jan 12, 2021 - 10:30am
 
HALF A WORLD - oldviolin - Jan 12, 2021 - 10:22am
 
Net Neutrality - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:55am
 
FOUR WORDS - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:43am
 
TWO WORDS - oldviolin - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:40am
 
ONE WORD - oldviolin - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:38am
 
THREE WORDS - oldviolin - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:38am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:18am
 
The Dragons' Roost - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 9:07am
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - GeneP59 - Jan 12, 2021 - 8:31am
 
Crazy conspiracy theories - Ohmsen - Jan 12, 2021 - 7:20am
 
Philosophy, anyone? - miamizsun - Jan 12, 2021 - 4:30am
 
What you need to know - No Jokes - rhahl - Jan 12, 2021 - 3:47am
 
Boogie-woogie music, milord. - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jan 11, 2021 - 8:08pm
 
Pickin' & Grinnin' - rhahl - Jan 11, 2021 - 4:51pm
 
Pretty Darn Good Bass Lines - among the best.... - miamizsun - Jan 11, 2021 - 2:24pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Trump Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 965, 966, 967  Next
Post to this Topic
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 10:02pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
Seems to me the grievances have been expanded exponentially (see, e.g., my prior post about common “enemies”).

I am aware that conservatives long have complained about the liberal influence of the media, academia, and Hollywood.  I believe those complaints to be overblown. Conservatives make up roughly half  of the population. How have they managed to escape the mind-control of these influences?

I'm trying to point out aspects of the debate you seem to have missed. If you're determined to miss them then I guess you can carry on addressing the problem you see rather than the problem we have.
 
+1
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 9:02pm

steeler wrote:
Seems to me the grievances have been expanded exponentially (see, e.g., my prior post about common “enemies”).

I am aware that conservatives long have complained about the liberal influence of the media, academia, and Hollywood.  I believe those complaints to be overblown. Conservatives make up roughly half  of the population. How have they managed to escape the mind-control of these influences?

I'm trying to point out aspects of the debate you seem to have missed. If you're determined to miss them then I guess you can carry on addressing the problem you see rather than the problem we have.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 8:46pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
haresfur wrote:
Fair enough. Except from what I see those questions are often asked rhetorically to put forward answers that are mostly bull. Or certainly with no intention of listening to answers that go against preconceived notions.

If you can't answer it it wasn't a rhetorical question, was it?
 
huh?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 8:24pm

haresfur wrote:
Fair enough. Except from what I see those questions are often asked rhetorically to put forward answers that are mostly bull. Or certainly with no intention of listening to answers that go against preconceived notions.

If you can't answer it it wasn't a rhetorical question, was it?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 4:58pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

What I'm trying to get at is that among the disaffected attracted to Trump there is a sense that those who drive the media (and thus a lot of the culture) have a patronizing disdain for them, and that they're not wrong. Trump managed to turn that cultural grievance into a political one.

If you find this as dangerous as I do then I suggest we find a way to treat the causes rather than doubling down on that disdain.
 
Seems to me the grievances have been expanded exponentially (see, e.g., my prior post about common “enemies”).

I am aware that conservatives long have complained about the liberal influence of the media, academia, and Hollywood.  I believe those complaints to be overblown. Conservatives make up roughly half  of the population. How have they managed to escape the mind-control of these influences?

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 3:51pm

Trump's Supporters' Main Problem was Never The Economy
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 3:51pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
haresfur wrote:
Yeah, I admit I don't get it. What right questions, exactly?

What is the impact of immigration on wages and employment, especially among unskilled laborers?
Why does the US spend so much defending other countries, and who are we defending them from?
Are we over-regulating or under-regulating businesses and the media?
Who benefits from economic and regulatory interventions, and who should benefit?
How is our culture changing, and who should be in charge of that change?
Are our interests safe from foreign powers, both militarily and economically?

Some of these questions have answers, and they will probably surprise those asking them. Some don't have good answers; that is, we have policies and programs in place that aren't benefiting those intended.
 


Fair enough. Except from what I see those questions are often asked rhetorically to put forward answers that are mostly bull. Or certainly with no intention of listening to answers that go against preconceived notions.
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 3:25pm



 steeler wrote:


 black321 wrote:
the elite is the messaging, right?
Isn't that part of the deep state/kabal?
class warfare and all that...working class hasn't really progressed, despite the cars, phones, tvs, boats, vacations...

I've always been confused by the whole elite argument...i'm ok with leaders, business/political, being the "elite"
 

Propaganda works by whipping up a frenzy about common enemies, including perceived ones that may not actually exist. In this Internet age, conspiracy theories have added currency. So, yeah, Trump has been all about messaging and a lot of that messaging is to whip up frenzies about enemies, be they  members of the “swamp,” the “deep state,” the political “establishment,” the “Fake News media,” “Antifa,” the “coastal elites,” “radical left Democrats,”or “caravans” of criminals coming across our border with Mexico. And those are just targets of his off the top of my head. 
 
I think that utilizing "rational" arguments with a great deal of the die-hard Trump faithful is probably a worthless endeavor. It's not the currency that they are trading in. The appeal of Trump to them is more emotional and visceral. Heck, to some of them his appeal is simply that they have never seen anyone like him before. It's more of a WWE type fandom/cult-of-personality... in the one corner you have Trump and his "take no prisoners street-fighter style" and in the other corner you have the "deep staters and political elites" that have been feasting on the souls of the lower middle class for years. In their world Trump is an idol who can do no wrong (whatever missteps he has made it is because he's been forced to make them) and woe be it to any outsider who questions the decisions/actions of "their guy". Logic doesn't resonate with these people. They are willing to believe all of his lies and look the other way regardless of his transgressions because having a "unconventional president" in power is worth whatever collateral damage he may cause. There is no transgression too great that he can engage in that will let them waiver in their emotional support of him.

I don't know how you find common ground in this scenario and perhaps it isn't worth trying. I think his mouth and actions on the outside of the White House will continue to get him into trouble and perhaps greater trouble without his cabinet there to cover for him. I think he's going to flame-out spectacularly in post-presidency.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 1:59pm



 haresfur wrote:


 black321 wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

What I'm trying to get at is that among the disaffected attracted to Trump there is a sense that those who drive the media (and thus a lot of the culture) have a patronizing disdain for them, and that they're not wrong. Trump managed to turn that cultural grievance into a political one.

If you find this as dangerous as I do then I suggest we find a way to treat the causes rather than doubling down on that disdain.
 

which comes back to a point i've made:
many people who support trump are asking some of the right questions,
but trump is/was the wrong answer.
 
Yeah, I admit I don't get it. What right questions, exactly?

 

believe lazy outlined ones regarding the media
others revolve around the lack of manufacturing jobs in america, trade/manufacturing imbalance with china, allies taking advantage of our military, sending funds overseas, too much taxes and regulations...
 
but you might want to ask an actual trump supporter for their perspective.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 1:53pm

haresfur wrote:
Yeah, I admit I don't get it. What right questions, exactly?

What is the impact of immigration on wages and employment, especially among unskilled laborers?
Why does the US spend so much defending other countries, and who are we defending them from?
Are we over-regulating or under-regulating businesses and the media?
Who benefits from economic and regulatory interventions, and who should benefit?
How is our culture changing, and who should be in charge of that change?
Are our interests safe from foreign powers, both militarily and economically?

Some of these questions have answers, and they will probably surprise those asking them. Some don't have good answers; that is, we have policies and programs in place that aren't benefiting those intended.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 1:35pm



 black321 wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

What I'm trying to get at is that among the disaffected attracted to Trump there is a sense that those who drive the media (and thus a lot of the culture) have a patronizing disdain for them, and that they're not wrong. Trump managed to turn that cultural grievance into a political one.

If you find this as dangerous as I do then I suggest we find a way to treat the causes rather than doubling down on that disdain.
 

which comes back to a point i've made:
many people who support trump are asking some of the right questions,
but trump is/was the wrong answer.
 
Yeah, I admit I don't get it. What right questions, exactly?

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 12:31pm



 black321 wrote:


 steeler wrote:


 black321 wrote:
the elite is the messaging, right?
Isn't that part of the deep state/kabal?
class warfare and all that...working class hasn't really progressed, despite the cars, phones, tvs, boats, vacations...

I've always been confused by the whole elite argument...i'm ok with leaders, business/political, being the "elite"
 

Propaganda works by whipping up a frenzy about common enemies, including perceived ones that may not actually exist. In this Internet age, conspiracy theories have added currency. So, yeah, Trump has been all about messaging and a lot of that messaging is to whip up frenzies about enemies, be they  members of the “swamp,” the “deep state,” the political “establishment,” the “Fake News media,” “Antifa,” the “coastal elites,” “radical left Democrats,”or “caravans” of criminals coming across our border with Mexico. And those are just targets of his off the top of my head. 
 



Yes.
but...on the other hand you have most of the established media guilty of over-reacting to trump and his supporters (not necessarily last week's events).
there was plenty to complain about trump, but too much coverage fell into tabloid territory.

 

Perhaps.  I can tell you this: under “rules” of journalism, you cover the President on a daily basis, his actions and his words. That has always been true. It makes it difficult to make choices not to cover something Trump is doing and saying. Yet we have started seeing that a bit. Now, I am talking about standard news coverage — not the television talk shows. I get that CNN, for example, has become almost all Trump, all the time. That is overkill. When I read, for example, the Washington Post, I see a lot of coverage of Trump and his administration but also a lot of other stories.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 12:21pm



 steeler wrote:


 black321 wrote:
the elite is the messaging, right?
Isn't that part of the deep state/kabal?
class warfare and all that...working class hasn't really progressed, despite the cars, phones, tvs, boats, vacations...

I've always been confused by the whole elite argument...i'm ok with leaders, business/political, being the "elite"
 

Propaganda works by whipping up a frenzy about common enemies, including perceived ones that may not actually exist. In this Internet age, conspiracy theories have added currency. So, yeah, Trump has been all about messaging and a lot of that messaging is to whip up frenzies about enemies, be they  members of the “swamp,” the “deep state,” the political “establishment,” the “Fake News media,” “Antifa,” the “coastal elites,” “radical left Democrats,”or “caravans” of criminals coming across our border with Mexico. And those are just targets of his off the top of my head. 
 



Yes.
but...on the other hand you have most of the established media guilty of over-reacting to trump and his supporters (not necessarily last week's events).
there was plenty to complain about trump, but too much coverage fell into tabloid territory.

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 12:11pm



 black321 wrote:
the elite is the messaging, right?
Isn't that part of the deep state/kabal?
class warfare and all that...working class hasn't really progressed, despite the cars, phones, tvs, boats, vacations...

I've always been confused by the whole elite argument...i'm ok with leaders, business/political, being the "elite"
 

Propaganda works by whipping up a frenzy about common enemies, including perceived ones that may not actually exist. In this Internet age, conspiracy theories have added currency. So, yeah, Trump has been all about messaging and a lot of that messaging is to whip up frenzies about enemies, be they  members of the “swamp,” the “deep state,” the political “establishment,” the “Fake News media,” “Antifa,” the “coastal elites,” “radical left Democrats,”or “caravans” of criminals coming across our border with Mexico. And those are just targets of his off the top of my head. 
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 11:48am

black321 wrote:
which comes back to a point i've made:
many people who support trump are asking some of the right questions,
but trump is/was the wrong answer.

...and I'd like them to get better answers, but the only response they're likely to get from our mainstream culture is how dare you ask that question!
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 11:25am



 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

What I'm trying to get at is that among the disaffected attracted to Trump there is a sense that those who drive the media (and thus a lot of the culture) have a patronizing disdain for them, and that they're not wrong. Trump managed to turn that cultural grievance into a political one.

If you find this as dangerous as I do then I suggest we find a way to treat the causes rather than doubling down on that disdain.
 

which comes back to a point i've made:
many people who support trump are asking some of the right questions,
but trump is/was the wrong answer.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 11:13am

steeler wrote:
I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

What I'm trying to get at is that among the disaffected attracted to Trump there is a sense that those who drive the media (and thus a lot of the culture) have a patronizing disdain for them, and that they're not wrong. Trump managed to turn that cultural grievance into a political one.

If you find this as dangerous as I do then I suggest we find a way to treat the causes rather than doubling down on that disdain.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 10:23am

the elite is the messaging, right?
Isn't that part of the deep state/kabal?
class warfare and all that...working class hasn't really progressed, despite the cars, phones, tvs, boats, vacations...

I've always been confused by the whole elite argument...i'm ok with leaders, business/political, being the "elite"
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 9:36am



 islander wrote:


 oldviolin wrote:
So not only is the existence/election of A Trump, but THE Trump to the exhalted position of President a life lesson for the whole of the American dreamscape in terms of personal accountability, but a behavioral science lesson about sheep and goats. Who knew?
 
Once again, I have no home in this party. I still prefer dogs.

 
Introspective reasoning notwithstanding wisdom nor canine caricature. 

"I don't think either side is anywhere close to respecting each other, and until that happens we are just continuing down the path."

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2021 - 9:26am



 steeler wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
steeler wrote:
All this does not mean a Trump supporter cannot identify concrete policy reasons for their support. Many can and do. I certainly was not implying otherwise. I was just saying that there also are — for some — intangibles. One of those is the one I find curious, which is a notion of Trump standing up for those who feel they have been disrespected themselves and their concerns ignored by the “elites.” It is curious to me, but it does exist. Just the other day, I got into a bit of a disagreement online with a Trump supporter who is a former high school classmate about the January 6 storming of the Capitol and he got miffed and dismissed me with some line about letting me get back to condemning the “deplorables.” I am pretty sure he believes  that is how many Trump opponents view Trump supporters like him. I also am pretty sure he believes that of me as well.

I wasn't there. Maybe he has a point. The term "deplorable" didn't come out if nowhere.

If you read the nation's leading newspapers, watch (most) network news or late-night TV, or pay attention to the incestuous tribe in media elites (that word again!) you will be exposed to a political monoculture. There is an orthodoxy there. When that orthodoxy reaches some consensus woe be unto any who step out of line with it. They aren't making that up, and it is hostile to them.

They are lashing out at it. If you can force yourself, listen to a Trump speech: he will spend a lot of it attacking not just specific enemies but that culture in general, and a lot of people responded to that. Reflexive opposition to the culturally-dominant orthodoxy has itself become an orthodoxy, and our political culture has distilled this mutual hostility into two warring tribes that punish any perceived disloyalty and deviation from their orthodoxies.

If this dismays you—not just the waxing or waning of your tribe's dominance over the culture, but tribalism itself—the first challenge is to recognize it in your own behavior. The next is to build a culture that encourages people to think critically and think for themselves rather than put a finger to the wind to decide what to think. That is going to be a lot harder than it sounds, but it will be infinitely preferable to an endless struggle over which tribe to banish.
 

I am a bit confused because I thought your previous post (and that of black321) was minimizing the role that a fight against the “elites” had among the reasons for support of Trump? Here, you seem to be acknowledging that it plays a significant role?

That is a threshold question. I hope to return to address the rest of the substance of this post.

 

Also interesting to me is how it's always the actions of of the 'elite' that is seen as looking down on others.  Which seems off to me because the very word elite now seems to carry a negative connotation among a whole lot of the population.  At this point, I don't know if there can be reconciliation. I don't think either side is anywhere close to respecting each other, and until that happens we are just continuing down the  path.
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 965, 966, 967  Next