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steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 3, 2024 - 4:55am

 kurtster wrote:
And I thought that I addressed what "wokeism" is in my first response  . . .

Why do you keep disregarding everything in my post except the reference to wokeism? The context is in the first three sentences.


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 2, 2024 - 9:31pm

 steeler wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Then why did you bring it up ?  I'm confused at what your point was.

The reason I brought it up was as an example of how issues are aggregated to fall under an overriding agenda. This is what I wrote in my initial post:
Unfortunately, talking through issues, much less debating them, is mostly equivalent to a lost art. Too often, a position on an issue is considered a puzzle piece, seen as part of an all-encompassing agenda. The necessity of constructing — and maintaining — these monoliths undermines not only reasoned discussion on issues, but democracy itself. We now see presidential candidates campaigning against “wokeism.” I don’t even know what that means, but it draws applause and stirs emotions. None of this bodes well.
 
And I thought that I addressed what "wokeism" is in my first response.

Since you don't know what something means that makes it imaginary and unreal ?

Is "wokeism" to you an example of something not real then ?  An example of something made up purely to stir people up into becoming emotional and to stop thinking ?

FWIW, here is what I would call an example of "wokeism" in action.  I was going to include it in a response to Beaker's comment about how to find common ground.  That got waylaid by last weekend and a browser update that deleted a response under construction.

Are you already aware of this incident or is this something new to you ?

Elderly volunteer, 90, claims she was forced out of MS Society job for asking about pronoun usage

People are losing their jobs and positions over this stuff.  You still think this is just some imaginary thing or trivial thing ?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 2, 2024 - 6:14pm

 kurtster wrote:

Then why did you bring it up ?  I'm confused at what your point was.

The reason I brought it up was as an example of how issues are aggregated to fall under an overriding agenda. This is what I wrote in my initial post:


Unfortunately, talking through issues, much less debating them, is mostly equivalent to a lost art. Too often, a position on an issue is considered a puzzle piece, seen as part of an all-encompassing agenda. The necessity of constructing — and maintaining — these monoliths undermines not only reasoned discussion on issues, but democracy itself. We now see presidential candidates campaigning against “wokeism.” I don’t even know what that means, but it draws applause and stirs emotions. None of this bodes well.


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 2, 2024 - 5:59pm

 steeler wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
. . . The happy holidays thing. Having worked retail forever, this is real and not just thin air. . . .

I do not attach any significance to the “happy holidays thing.” 
 
Then why did you bring it up ?  I'm confused at what your point was.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Mar 2, 2024 - 4:40pm

Just saw this hot take on Twitter and thought it resonated: 

Trump: "What Biden is doing to me is illegal!" 

Also Trump: "Nothing a President does is illegal!" 

Sorta feels like that junior high school joke—a piece of paper with "How do you keep an id iot occupied? Flip over to see answer"  written on both sides
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 2, 2024 - 3:12pm

 kurtster wrote:
. . . The happy holidays thing. Having worked retail forever, this is real and not just thin air. . . .

I do not attach any significance to the “happy holidays thing.” I do not believe there is any deep meaning to be ascribed to it. Frankly, I think it is a silly “issue.” What it shows, if anything, is the depth of the cultural polarization that afflicts our society, a divide so deep that it leads people to assert that Starbucks engaged in a “war on Christmas” because it changed the design and imagery of its holiday cups. The phrase “spoiling for a fight” comes to mind.


kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 11:00pm

 steeler wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Just passing thru right now. Consider wokeism the 21st Century version of political correctness.  That is how I am taking it.  Language manipulation in order to control and stifle debates. Just yesterday the Biden team introduced the term "Newcomers" to replace the term "migrants" which replaced lord knows what before all the names that replaced the codified term  "illegal aliens". Just by producing this new term of "Newcomers" indicates to me that Biden has no intentions of actually changing anything regarding the border and security. All those migrant shelters popping up in Sanctuary Cities will now be called Newcomer Centers.  A far less objectionable and intentionally misleading name to use in discussions when residents where these entities are being established object to them.  Who could be against a Newcomer Center ?  Only racists, bigots and xenophobes ... Language manipulation, the means to the ends. imho, I find it hard to believe that someone who splits hairs and deals in semantics for a living would not have figured this out by now.  that or you're just another frog in that proverbial pot ...
You have passed over the first half of my post, which conveyed my point, to focus instead on a reference to wokeism in the second half. Your prerogative, but it is my prerogative to point out that you have not addressed the point of my post. I would suggest that your post tends to prove my point as you seemingly prefer to address issues on the margins.

The manipulation of language can have an impact. Great oratory and propaganda (not always mutually exclusive) have proven that throughout history. That said, debates about whether there is a devious agenda lurking when someone or some entity wishes a person “happy holidays” instead of “merry Christmas” demonstrate how issues can be manufactured out of thin air.

Discussion about the use of language pertaining to an issue is more often than not skirting discussion of the issue itself. It typically assumes an agenda, much as you and others in the GOP have done in expressing anger at the White House for its use in a statement of the word “newcomers” instead of “migrants” or “illegal aliens.” Clearly, the current problems at the border are not going to be solved by referring to those crossing it as “illegal aliens.” (An aside: The reality is that those who illegally cross the border are not here illegally once they ask for asylum, which is what the overwhelming majority of those crossing the southern border do. At that point, under current law, their legal status is to be determined. If their petition for asylum is granted, they are here legally.) The use of “wokeism” and “political correctness” are umbrella terms used as pejoratives to aggregate disparate issues as being part of one overarching agenda to which those using the terms are opposed. As I stated in my post, this creates a monolith, one to which sinister motives can be ascribed, like a bogeyman. One who starts with the assumption that the person expressing an opposing viewpoint is part of, or supportive of, an evil cabal is unlikely to see any point in engaging in a reasoned and civil debate on an issue. Hearing talk of “alternative facts” and declarations that “truth is not truth” should stand as warnings that we (the greater “we,” not you and I) are descending down this rabbit hole of disingenuous debate.
 
Ok.  The first part then.

The happy holidays thing.  Having worked retail forever, this is real and not just thin air.

The take away is there is pressure to self censor so as not to risk offending someone else.  It prevents meaningful interactions from happening the longer and deeper the affects of self censoring proceed.  Not only does communication break down but people think like everyone is walking on eggshells and become even more hesitant to interact.  This is beyond common sense filters.

Selling stuff requires you to walk up to perfect strangers and initiate conversations to help someone get what they want or think they want.  All the time.  I have experienced the changes in real time over many decades.  Discovering and dealing with a customers expectations and needs requires at least a base level of interpersonal human interaction without off putting or offending the customer.  It becomes safer to stay in the lane than to risk offense and possibly losing a sale. And even your job.  And that lane gets narrower and narrower every day.  The interactions becomes extremely literal and pedantic.  Joe Friday like.  You always wonder how to greet people and begin. It is ok for the customer to offend you but you cannot offend the customer.   And it's these interactions that people take home with them and base future behaviour on.

I guess if this resultant behaviour of the public is intended then one must ask who are the ones doing the steering and why.  Or is society just evolving this way on its own ?  Me, I'm with the former.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to anyone.  These are just observations over a very long time span.

ymwv
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 2:23pm

 kurtster wrote:

Just passing thru right now.

Consider wokeism the 21st Century version of political correctness.  That is how I am taking it.  Language manipulation in order to control and stifle debates.

Just yesterday the Biden team introduced the term "Newcomers" to replace the term "migrants" which replaced lord knows what before all the names that replaced the codified term  "illegal aliens".

Just by producing this new term of "Newcomers" indicates to me that Biden has no intentions of actually changing anything regarding the border and security.

All those migrant shelters popping up in Sanctuary Cities will now be called Newcomer Centers.  A far less objectionable and intentionally misleading name to use in discussions when residents where these entities are being established object to them.  Who could be against a Newcomer Center ?  Only racists, bigots and xenophobes ...

Language manipulation, the means to the ends.

imho, I find it hard to believe that someone who splits hairs and deals in semantics for a living would not have figured this out by now.  that or you're just another frog in that proverbial pot ...


You have passed over the first half of my post, which conveyed my point, to focus instead on a reference to wokeism in the second half. Your prerogative, but it is my prerogative to point out that you have not addressed the point of my post. I would suggest that your post tends to prove my point as you seemingly prefer to address issues on the margins.

The manipulation of language can have an impact. Great oratory and propaganda (not always mutually exclusive) have proven that throughout history. That said, debates about whether there is a devious agenda lurking when someone or some entity wishes a person “happy holidays” instead of “merry Christmas” demonstrate how issues can be manufactured out of thin air.

Discussion about the use of language pertaining to an issue is more often than not skirting discussion of the issue itself. It typically assumes an agenda, much as you and others in the GOP have done in expressing anger at the White House for its use in a statement of the word “newcomers” instead of “migrants” or “illegal aliens.” Clearly, the current problems at the border are not going to be solved by referring to those crossing it as “illegal aliens.” (An aside: The reality is that those who illegally cross the border are not here illegally once they ask for asylum, which is what the overwhelming majority of those crossing the southern border do. At that point, under current law, their legal status is to be determined. If their petition for asylum is granted, they are here legally.)

The use of “wokeism” and “political correctness” are umbrella terms used as pejoratives to aggregate disparate issues as being part of one overarching agenda to which those using the terms are opposed. As I stated in my post, this creates a monolith, one to which sinister motives can be ascribed, like a bogeyman. One who starts with the assumption that the person expressing an opposing viewpoint is part of, or supportive of, an evil cabal is unlikely to see any point in engaging in a reasoned and civil debate on an issue.

Hearing talk of “alternative facts” and declarations that “truth is not truth” should stand as warnings that we (the greater “we,” not you and I) are descending down this rabbit hole of disingenuous debate.
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 11:55am

 R_P wrote:


R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 11:38am

Biden Physician Mistakenly Performs Autopsy For First 10 Minutes Of Physical

oldviolin

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Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 11:12am

 kcar wrote:

George Orwell might raise an eyebrow at your line of logic, but we are far ways away from 
"1984's" Newspeak. 

Most of us here are concerned with the destruction of democracy by a man desperate to avoid jail and a party that will throw away principle to gain power. 

You are worried about a maybesomeday fantasy scenario that falls apart when faced with the slightest pushback or obstacle. 

AFAICT you are so hostile to change—political, economic, social, cultural—that you're reflexively phobic. And you would throw away democracy in exchange for security and stasis. Unfortunately you live in a country where change in all these fields is a constant.



Actually we live in a country immersed in the political and social quagmire afforded by some cosmic Peter Principle leadership.. Just my opinion. But, what do I know? Experience is only a spectrum.



kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 11:06am

 kurtster wrote:

Just passing thru right now.

Consider wokeism the 21st Century version of political correctness.  That is how I am taking it.  Language manipulation in order to control and stifle debates.

Just yesterday the Biden team introduced the term "Newcomers" to replace the term "migrants" which replaced lord knows what before all the names that replaced the codified term  "illegal aliens".

Just by producing this new term of "Newcomers" indicates to me that Biden has no intentions of actually changing anything regarding the border and security.

All those migrant shelters popping up in Sanctuary Cities will now be called Newcomer Centers.  A far less objectionable and intentionally misleading name to use in discussions when residents where these entities are being established object to them.  Who could be against a Newcomer Center ?  Only racists, bigots and xenophobes ...

Language manipulation, the means to the ends.

imho, I find it hard to believe that someone who splits hairs and deals in semantics for a living would not have figured this out by now.  that or you're just another frog in that proverbial pot ...

George Orwell might raise an eyebrow at your line of logic, but we are far ways away from 
"1984's" Newspeak. 

Most of us here are concerned with the destruction of democracy by a man desperate to avoid jail and a party that will throw away principle to gain power. 

You are worried about a maybesomeday fantasy scenario that falls apart when faced with the slightest pushback or obstacle. 

AFAICT you are so hostile to change—political, economic, social, cultural—that you're reflexively phobic. And you would throw away democracy in exchange for security and stasis. Unfortunately you live in a country where change in all these fields is a constant.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 9:38am

 steeler wrote:
. We now see presidential candidates campaigning against “wokeism.” I don’t even know what that means, but it draws applause and stirs emotions. None of this bodes well.
 
Just passing thru right now.

Consider wokeism the 21st Century version of political correctness.  That is how I am taking it.  Language manipulation in order to control and stifle debates.

Just yesterday the Biden team introduced the term "Newcomers" to replace the term "migrants" which replaced lord knows what before all the names that replaced the codified term  "illegal aliens".

Just by producing this new term of "Newcomers" indicates to me that Biden has no intentions of actually changing anything regarding the border and security.

All those migrant shelters popping up in Sanctuary Cities will now be called Newcomer Centers.  A far less objectionable and intentionally misleading name to use in discussions when residents where these entities are being established object to them.  Who could be against a Newcomer Center ?  Only racists, bigots and xenophobes ...

Language manipulation, the means to the ends.

imho, I find it hard to believe that someone who splits hairs and deals in semantics for a living would not have figured this out by now.  that or you're just another frog in that proverbial pot ...
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 8:13am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
. . .
 Like any other intellectual fad, CRT and wokeism have a bit of good and bad about them. The best countermeasure is to actually sit down and discuss the issues in good faith and prepare to be challenged and to challenge back in return. This is a good thing. It is part and parcel of a vibrant democracy. . . .


Indeed.

Unfortunately, talking through issues, much less debating them, is mostly equivalent to a lost art. Too often, a position on an issue is considered a puzzle piece, seen as part of an all-encompassing agenda. The necessity of constructing — and maintaining — these monoliths undermines not only reasoned discussion on issues, but democracy itself. We now see presidential candidates campaigning against “wokeism.” I don’t even know what that means, but it draws applause and stirs emotions. None of this bodes well.

islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 7:33am

 VV wrote:


Really? This is what concerns you? Inaccurate IA generated images? You're correct... it's a tiny little thing and (as such) wouldn't make most people's radars.

It was stupid to post it and stupid to argue over it.
 
You might want to rethink your priorities. Or just go chase more rabbits.



A disingenuous debater will release a herd of rabbits for you to chase when they have nothing solid to put out.
islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 7:32am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

3. Finally, as soon as one enters that Faustian agreement to use force and twist the rule of war to get what you want, you have automatically lost the very thing you think you want to protect. 
IMO, there is nothing on Earth that justifies ripping the U.S. Constitution to shreds. A functioning pluralistic society is hard enough to create at the best of times and the U.S. is an absolute beacon to the rest of the world about how to get it right. Why destroy it so wantonly?










When you (barely) win the popular vote once in the last 36 years there isn't a lot left to maintain control. Fortunately, the left so far has been unwilling to go full McConnell in their responses to that fuckwit, but if they do the right will come unglued. I'm not sure what the outcome will be when only one party shows restraint. And I really don't like that what looked like a strong system has been shown to really rely on everyone simply operating in good faith when one side really isn't operating in good faith.

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 7:24am

 kurtster wrote:
Oh and I suppose you are calling me racist once again for posting the AI generated pic of G Washington.

Well it is from your woke, racist buddies at Google. I guess that you and the other regulars here are not even aware of this little, tiny thing.

This article is a week old already, but the issue at hand is even older having been in development and fully vetted and approved long before its release.

Here let me offer you some assistance ...

Google pauses ‘absurdly woke’ Gemini AI chatbot’s image tool after backlash over historically inaccurate pictures


Really? This is what concerns you? Inaccurate IA generated images? You're correct... it's a tiny little thing and (as such) wouldn't make most people's radars.

It was stupid to post it and stupid to argue over it.
 
You might want to rethink your priorities. Or just go chase more rabbits.

Beaker

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Location: Your safe space


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 7:17am

 kcar wrote:

Google is not trying to pass off images generated by Gemini as factually or historically accurate. The company has provided numerous caveats that Gemini is in beta. It cautions users to check search results provided by its AI chatbots against other resources.

That includes search results for historical information. I asked Gemini (I think it was still part of Bard at the time) when the US population hit 100 million. Gemini provided an answer in understandable English but hedged its answer with claims that this was a difficult question to answer. The answer it did provide was wildly inaccurate. 

Michael Cohen could also warn you against regarding AI=generated material as reliable or accurate. IIRC his lawyers provided a response to a judge's request for opinions in a case. They relied on AI (I think it was ChatGPT) and largely copied and pasted case law precedents into their arguments submitted to the court. The cases cited did not exist. 

If anything, AI has a tendency towards bias against minorities. For instance, AI facial recognition has long had a much lower rate of success when trying to match images of people of color to databases of recognized individuals. AI chatbots have also "hallucinated" and reached racist conclusions about certain groups, conclusions that were not backed up by evidence. 

The entire field of AI is advancing rapidly. Some of the results and conclusions AI programs are not readily understood by humans, to the point that the European Union has demanded that tech companies work to provide "xAI" or Explainable AI to guard against the spread of unexamined biases and inaccurate information. 



The above could have been written by an AI-chatbot apologist.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 1, 2024 - 12:12am

 kurtster wrote:


I still don't get what upsets the MAGA crowd so much about their current lot that they are willing to risk a functioning political system for it. They live in one of the richest countries in the world. They have access to the best healthcare in the world (albeit the most expensive). They are well fed, well housed and not facing any existential crisis. What exactly is their problem?

So, speaking of echo chambers. Here's my selbstgespräch on a Friday morning: 

1. MAGA think it is the left wing radicals / proponents of CRT and woke urban intellectuals who are the real threat to a functioning system. Because they can't say that without being criticised for being racist, they project their fears onto softer targets, like illegal immigration and border security.
2. Because they fear that left-wing radicals control the Democrat party and that demographic trends favour other groups than WASPs, MAGA supporters fear they will never have their voice heard again.
3. Therefore they think that taking control of the government by force is justified "to save it", or at the least, they are willing to turn a blind eye to any transgressions by their avowed leader in order for WASPs/Christian nationalists to remain in power.

or something along those lines. Assuming that is halfway correct, this is what I would like to say:

1. Left-wing radicals are just one voice among many. They don't control anything, but they have influence. But that is true of every other political force out there.
2. By the same token, just because the WASP demographic is slowly losing its grip on majority rule, this doesn't assign them to the dustbin of history. Their voice will still be the dominant one out there and continue to have massive influence. Further, I personally believe plurality and diversity are things to be aimed for. They make us all stronger and better as individuals. That might sound like some corporate newspeak, but I actually think it is true. Like any other intellectual fad, CRT and wokeism have a bit of good and bad about them. The best countermeasure is to actually sit down and discuss the issues in good faith and prepare to be challenged and to challenge back in return. This is a good thing. It is part and parcel of a vibrant democracy.
3. Finally, as soon as one enters that Faustian agreement to use force and twist the rule of war to get what you want, you have automatically lost the very thing you think you want to protect. 
IMO, there is nothing on Earth that justifies ripping the U.S. Constitution to shreds. A functioning pluralistic society is hard enough to create at the best of times and the U.S. is an absolute beacon to the rest of the world about how to get it right. Why destroy it so wantonly?

(FWIW, I would also aim these arguments at left-wing radicals who seek to install some kind of autocratic government, of which there have been plenty over the years.)

So, when Biden says (about MAGA transgressions like Jan.6 or kids in cages), "that is not America", I think he is right. America is something bigger and better than all the diverse groups that make it up. Long may it last.







kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 29, 2024 - 10:54pm

Google is not trying to pass off images generated by Gemini as factually or historically accurate. The company has provided numerous caveats that Gemini is in beta. It cautions users to check search results provided by its AI chatbots against other resources.

That includes search results for historical information. I asked Gemini (I think it was still part of Bard at the time) when the US population hit 100 million. Gemini provided an answer in understandable English but hedged its answer with claims that this was a difficult question to answer. The answer it did provide was wildly inaccurate. 

Michael Cohen could also warn you against regarding AI=generated material as reliable or accurate. IIRC his lawyers provided a response to a judge's request for opinions in a case. They relied on AI (I think it was ChatGPT) and largely copied and pasted case law precedents into their arguments submitted to the court. The cases cited did not exist. 

If anything, AI has a tendency towards bias against minorities. For instance, AI facial recognition has long had a much lower rate of success when trying to match images of people of color to databases of recognized individuals. AI chatbots have also "hallucinated" and reached racist conclusions about certain groups, conclusions that were not backed up by evidence. 

The entire field of AI is advancing rapidly. Some of the results and conclusions AI programs are not readily understood by humans, to the point that the European Union has demanded that tech companies work to provide "xAI" or Explainable AI to guard against the spread of unexamined biases and inaccurate information. 
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