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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 37, 38, 39  Next
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NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 8:27am



 SeriousLee wrote:

Interesting. I did not know that.
 
"All the energy in oil, gas, and coal originally came from the sun, captured through photosynthesis. In the same way that we burn wood to release energy that trees capture from the sun, we burn fossil fuels to release the energy that ancient plants captured from the sun."  (http://techalive.mtu.edu/meec/module19/Page4.htm)

 

Seriously?  In our country they stopped teaching physical geography at some stage, looks like NZ wasn't the only country to do so. Well pardon me if I came across all haughty taughty.. I thought everyone knew that.
SeriousLee

SeriousLee Avatar

Location: Dans l'milieu d'deux milles livres


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 8:20am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

So you're saying that petrochemicals, et al, are indirect solar power ?
 
 
Kurtster, let's just stop now. you make me into a worse person than I want to be.

 Go check out where oil ultimately comes from.

 
Interesting. I did not know that.
 
"All the energy in oil, gas, and coal originally came from the sun, captured through photosynthesis. In the same way that we burn wood to release energy that trees capture from the sun, we burn fossil fuels to release the energy that ancient plants captured from the sun."  (http://techalive.mtu.edu/meec/module19/Page4.htm)

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 8:12am



 kurtster wrote:

So you're saying that petrochemicals, et al, are indirect solar power ?


 
 
Kurtster, let's just stop now. you make me into a worse person than I want to be.

 Go check out where oil ultimately comes from.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 8:08am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

What in the hell are you talking about ?

I thought that you said that, 90% of the world's energy is sourced directly or indirectly from the sun.

 

oh dearie.. what powers the water cycle? what powers the wind? 

 
So you're saying that petrochemicals, et al, are indirect solar power ?


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 7:26am



 kurtster wrote:

What in the hell are you talking about ?

I thought that you said that, 90% of the world's energy is sourced directly or indirectly from the sun.

 

oh dearie.. what powers the water cycle? what powers the wind? 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 7:13am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
 

double fail on your part:
a) I rounded to the nearest blockhead,
look at 2014 compared to 2015, nuclear accounts for roughly 10% in  2014 and roughly 5% in 2015 - I was actually being generous.

b) you are forgetting hydro

 
What in the hell are you talking about ?

I thought that you said that, 90% of the world's energy is sourced directly or indirectly from the sun.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:55am



 kurtster wrote:
 

double fail on your part:
a) I rounded to the nearest blockhead, ten percent.
look at 2014 compared to 2015, nuclear accounts for roughly 10% in  2014 and roughly 5% in 2015 - I was actually being generous.

b) you are forgetting hydro
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:50am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

Show me that source, please.
 
my pleasure

 
Fail.
 with fossil fuels supplying 86% of the world's energy:
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:37am



 kurtster wrote:

Show me that source, please.
 
my pleasure


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:35am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

So the sun made Uranium and the resulting nuclear radiation / energy ?

And geothermal is solar powered ?

Did AOC tell you this ?  The science party, hah !

Energy is conserved.  It cannot be created nor destroyed.  It can only be converted into other forms.  

As usual, I could be wrong.  I did get my education in public schools.

Ra, Ra, Ra !!!
 

says the man who believes in chem trails..  but point taken, a mere 90% of the world's energy is sourced directly or indirectly from the sun.

 
Show me that source, please.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:30am



 kurtster wrote:

So the sun made Uranium and the resulting nuclear radiation / energy ?

And geothermal is solar powered ?

Did AOC tell you this ?  The science party, hah !

Energy is conserved.  It cannot be created nor destroyed.  It can only be converted into other forms.  

As usual, I could be wrong.  I did get my education in public schools.

Ra, Ra, Ra !!!


 

says the man who believes in chem trails..  but point taken, a mere 90% of the world's energy is sourced directly or indirectly from the sun.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 7, 2019 - 6:05am

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Solar and wind generated power are ultimately the only sustainable sources. ALL the energy on this planet came/comes from the sun. We need to stop mining the stored solar energy and start using the solar energy that is dumped on the planet on a daily - sustainable - basis.

 
So the sun made Uranium and the resulting nuclear radiation / energy ?

And geothermal is solar powered ?

Did AOC tell you this ?  The science party, hah !

Energy is conserved.  It cannot be created nor destroyed.  It can only be converted into other forms.  

As usual, I could be wrong.  I did get my education in public schools.

Ra, Ra, Ra !!!


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 6, 2019 - 7:11am

Solar and wind generated power are ultimately the only sustainable sources. ALL the energy on this planet came/comes from the sun. We need to stop mining the stored solar energy and start using the solar energy that is dumped on the planet on a daily - sustainable - basis.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2019 - 6:39am

It's not their land. And certainly not their oil. 

The oil industry is only more competitive because they are basically selling stolen goods.

If it is not sustainable it is stealing from the common good. End of discussion.
no kittens were harmed in the making of this statement.

kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2019 - 5:21am

 Lazy8 wrote:
black321 wrote:
Who gives a s#$t about whether its a tax break, lease discount, subsidy....these all impact the cost, which is ultimately all that is important.  

It matters so we can have an honest discussion about the topic.

If, say, wind power were a completely economically viable proposition all on its own—that is, the value of the power generated exceeded the cost of the labor, land, and resources required to generate it—governments would be looking for a way to tax it. Not because windmills have externalities that need to be compensated for, not because windmills are a burden on the public treasury, but because there's money there that the state isn't getting a piece of. They want a cut. Period.

The word subsidy is used (even when it isn't appropriate) because it's emotionally charged. It implies other people are being taxed to pay for something—that money is coming out of their pockets to prop up something that can't support itself. In some cases that is completely accurate, in some cases it's simply false.

We won't make progress on issues if we don't face them honestly.

Wind farms pay a $1/MWh tax in Wyoming. That's in large part because coal, a much bigger employer than wind, makes the state of Wyoming a lot of money in taxes and thus has a lot of political pull. They see it as only fair.

No other state taxes wind power directly. Is that a subsidy? No?

If Wyoming cut that tax to $.687/MWh would that be a subsidy? If it raised it to $1.178 would that mean that it was being subsidized, but isn't any longer? What if that tax could have been raised to $1.1839, but wasn't—is the difference a subsidy?

When Amazon threatened to open a headquarters in Brooklyn the city of New York offered it $3.4B in tax abatement—taxes it promised not to collect—to make it worthwhile to move there. There was outrage! How dare they, giving Amazon all that money!

So Amazon pulled out of the deal. Did the city of New York save itself $3.4B? No, the deal was a net gain for NYC and now it won't realize that gain. The $3.4B was never coming to NYC and now the jobs and paychecks and building rentals and restaurant meals won't either.

This is what happens when the discussion is dishonest. That's why it matters.

 
Terminology does matter. 

The best example I can think of is when discussing the federal budget, it is common for the framing of a reduction of an automatic increase to be called a budget cut.  The budget is still being increased, just not as much.  An increase is an increase, yet in political speak, it becomes a cut because it is not a full increase.  The federal government assumes that the budget increase is automatic regardless of need instead of using a zero based system where a function is analyzed and say an adjustment for increased efficiency would offset the need for an increase is ignored.  This is the primary difference between how the government operates vs a private enterprise.

The only way now that a budget item will not get an automatic increase is if the previously allocated monies are not all spent, and even in that case is still unlikely.  This method only causes increased waste and inefficiency where administrators seek out ways to spend all "their" money (our money) regardless of need or merit to insure the next year's automatic increase.  This method also assures that there will never be another surplus of government funds.  And insures the need for continually higher taxes to pay for increased automatic spending.



westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 5, 2019 - 3:28pm

Jesuz jumpin' catfish Lazy8.

This is by far the worst post of yours I have read on RP.  "Honesty"?   Gimme a break.


 Lazy8 wrote:
black321 wrote:
Who gives a s#$t about whether its a tax break, lease discount, subsidy....these all impact the cost, which is ultimately all that is important.  

It matters so we can have an honest discussion about the topic.

If, say, wind power were a completely economically viable proposition all on its own—that is, the value of the power generated exceeded the cost of the labor, land, and resources required to generate it—governments would be looking for a way to tax it. Not because windmills have externalities that need to be compensated for, not because windmills are a burden on the public treasury, but because there's money there that the state isn't getting a piece of. They want a cut. Period.

The word subsidy is used (even when it isn't appropriate) because it's emotionally charged. It implies other people are being taxed to pay for something—that money is coming out of their pockets to prop up something that can't support itself. In some cases that is completely accurate, in some cases it's simply false.

We won't make progress on issues if we don't face them honestly.

Wind farms pay a $1/MWh tax in Wyoming. That's in large part because coal, a much bigger employer than wind, makes the state of Wyoming a lot of money in taxes and thus has a lot of political pull. They see it as only fair.

No other state taxes wind power directly. Is that a subsidy? No?

If Wyoming cut that tax to $.687/MWh would that be a subsidy? If it raised it to $1.178 would that mean that it was being subsidized, but isn't any longer? What if that tax could have been raised to $1.1839, but wasn't—is the difference a subsidy?

When Amazon threatened to open a headquarters in Brooklyn the city of New York offered it $3.4B in tax abatement—taxes it promised not to collect—to make it worthwhile to move there. There was outrage! How dare they, giving Amazon all that money!

So Amazon pulled out of the deal. Did the city of New York save itself $3.4B? No, the deal was a net gain for NYC and now it won't realize that gain. The $3.4B was never coming to NYC and now the jobs and paychecks and building rentals and restaurant meals won't either.

This is what happens when the discussion is dishonest. That's why it matters.
 


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 5, 2019 - 1:54pm

 islander wrote:
But I do see an issue and I'm willing to take some steps (even if they are sideways or even occasionally backward) looking for compromise and forward motion. Because if nothing changes and the status quo continues, when the pressure finally breaks, and people get really fed up, you will have people with...

... pitchforks and rechargeable-battery-powered torches!
JrzyTmata

JrzyTmata Avatar



Posted: Apr 5, 2019 - 1:46pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
I was using your rules, see merriam-webster (they still get to do definitions right?):



2a(1): to promote the interests or cause of



b(1): ASSIST, HELP

You were murdering kittens.
 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2019 - 1:42pm

islander wrote:
I was using your rules, see merriam-webster (they still get to do definitions right?):



2a(1): to promote the interests or cause of



b(1): ASSIST, HELP

You were murdering kittens.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2019 - 1:22pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
 islander wrote:
Okay, so it's just the definition. Let's use a different word.  Support. The fossil fuel industry gets far more support than the alternative fuel industry. And as you noted, because they are singled out in many instances for this support while their competitors are not (or even actively interfered with), then this is an unfair advantage and should be rectified. Again, I don't see that support going away while the industry has a model in place where they can continue to use there massive profits to pay off law makers to get subsidi support from the tax paying public.

How about we stop torturing the language and just describe reality? No, you don't get to redefine the word "support" either.

Fossil fuel industries are net taxpayers. The alternative fuel industry (and the only things I know of that qualify as "alternative fuels" are biofuels) are heavily subsidized and even mandated in downstream markets.

Go ahead and bring up some instance where competitors to the fossil fuel industry are being held back and interfered with. I promise to be outraged, but I ain't holding my breath.

This feels a lot like the gun arguments. You don't think there is any legitimate regulation there or taxation here. You don't see a problem with status quo in either situation, or at least not one where any of the proposed solutions is to your liking, so you'll sit back and wait until someone manages to craft a proposal to your liking.  Once again, I like guns and my house has 1000HP of diesel engines, so I'm not radical left that is calling for much sterner measures. But I do see an issue and I'm willing to take some steps (even if they are sideways or even occasionally backward) looking for compromise and forward motion. Because if nothing changes and the status quo continues, when the pressure finally breaks, and people get really fed up, you will have people with really whacky ideas implementing policies that will really muck up the works.  It's already building out there in future land. And I can move my house when things get too bad, you're just going to have to live with the kitten murderers.

I'll make my own argument, thanks. And there are other places to argue about gun control.
 

I was using your rules, see merriam-webster (they still get to do definitions right?):



2a(1): to promote the interests or cause of



b(1): ASSIST, HELP

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