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rotekz

rotekz Avatar



Posted: May 27, 2016 - 2:18pm

Clinton Cash being read out at the Trump rally.

 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 27, 2016 - 2:07pm

 kurtster wrote:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Wilson was a governor before being POTUS.  Hoover as you pointed out had prior gov service as well.  Eisenhower does fit the definition of a non politician, but is a one off when its all said in done.  That and his military experience made him uniquely qualified to give it a good go.  He was courted by both parties to run and ended up deciding to be a repub.  Perot didn't do it.

At this point in time, we won't know until we get there.  Its easy to predict the worst possible outcome and dismiss on that basis.  I see a government so dysfunctional that I am willing to throw sand in the gears and go for an overhaul.  Anyone else will be business as usual and more of the same.  



 

 
Wilson had only two years as Governor and was campaigning for President during those two years. I wouldn't call him a politician before he got to the White House. 

Prior to his presidency, Hoover was an appointee to positions in the government—in other words, an administrator/bureaucrat and not a politician.  

I don't see any benefit flowing from electing a non-politician. If you or I became President, we'd still have to work within the confines of the Washington system. A non-politician as President still has to work with all the elected politicians of Congress and the state governments. You could be Moses with the tablets from God and you'd still have to act like a politician to get anything done. One man isn't going to change the overall way of how Washington works.

"I see a government so dysfunctional that I am willing to throw sand in the gears and go for an overhaul." 

 
Remember the times when the federal government shut down due to fights over the budget? Nothing got done, not even little stuff like opening parks. "Throwing sand in the gears" would lead to that paralysis, but it would be like that all the time. 

And Trump is not going to throw sand in the gears. At his best, Trump would issue some executive orders and possibly cobble together some bills with the help of Congressional Republicans. They would struggle to become law in the face of Democratic opposition. Trump would definitely try to work within the existing political system, though.

At his worst, Trump would resemble Jimmy Carter—a man unprepared for the job, faced with a dissolving Democratic caucus and rising Republican opposition, and grappling with intractable problems like stagflation, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, oil price shocks,  the decline of major domestic industries like auto manufacturing and steel production, etc.

Or Trump might resemble GW Bush, the guy who let 9/11 happen, who lied to Americans and got us into a war we never had to fight while he let our hold over Afghanistan slip, who botched the relief of New Orleans after Katrina and who pretty much hid under tables while Secretary of the Treasury Hank Paulson, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Barack Obama prevented the collapse of the American economy.  

Bad, BAD things happen when inexperienced or unprepared individuals become President. A businessman or a soldier or an engineer doesn't have some wonderful, majick ability to get things done that politicians lack. 

Would you want a lifelong professor of English, lacking any experience in construction and development, to head up a large-scale construction project like a skyscraper or sprawling real estate development? That's the equivalent of having Trump become President. 

As I've written before, Trump has had success in large-scale projects that might help him as President. But he's also had huge disasters and lately he keeps displaying massive ignorance on major issues. He's less than six months from the election and he hasn't absorbed the required knowledge or hired the expert advisors to guide him. 

If you were asked to work on a construction project and found the level of unpreparedness and rash behavior that Trump has displayed, Kurtster, I'm pretty sure you would run from that project as fast as you could. 

Good talking with you as always. {#Cheers} 
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 2:04pm

<Sorry. That's what happens when you start sharing computers.>
aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 1:58pm

 kurtster wrote:
 No more repeats in a family.  Haven't we learned this yet ?  Bad juju.  

 
That seems like a rather arbitrary basis on which to disqualify political candidates. We might as well disqualify people whose social security numbers contain three sixes.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 1:43pm

 Steely_D wrote:

I think we can accomplish that in different ways. For instance, electing Huntsman would've cleared the deck/flushed the toilet in a good way. He had good experience, was picked by Obama to be ambassador to China, was Republican.

...

So, it's not necessary to swing so wildly off course as to pick someone incompetent. Simply picking better from the competent people should be enough. That means not letting the media pick for us, which is what it just did. 

 
That was then, he's not a choice now.  Not enough people wanted him then, and he wasn't willing to go again.

Gotta work with the ones we have to choose from.  Someone is going to be the 45th POTUS and its a very short list.  Bush and Clinton weren't gonna work for me at any level.  Bush is gone.  No more repeats in a family.  Haven't we learned this yet ?  Bad juju.  
KurtfromLaQuinta

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Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 11:30am

 Steely_D wrote:

I think we can accomplish that in different ways. For instance, electing Huntsman would've cleared the deck/flushed the toilet in a good way. He had good experience, was picked by Obama to be ambassador to China, was Republican.



 
Hey. I'm game.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 10:55am

 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

At this point in time, we won't know until we get there.  Its easy to predict the worst possible outcome and dismiss on that basis.  I see a government so dysfunctional that I am willing to throw sand in the gears and go for an overhaul.  Anyone else will be business as usual and more of the same.  



 

 Flush the toilet.

 
Trump is more of a burn the house down though. It may accomplish some of the same in the end, but there will be other collateral damage. Unfortunately, those who may be hurt worst are those least able to take the hit.
KurtfromLaQuinta

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Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 10:19am

 kurtster wrote:

At this point in time, we won't know until we get there.  Its easy to predict the worst possible outcome and dismiss on that basis.  I see a government so dysfunctional that I am willing to throw sand in the gears and go for an overhaul.  Anyone else will be business as usual and more of the same.  



 

 Flush the toilet.


aflanigan

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Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 9:16am

 kurtster wrote:
  Just calling em as I see em.  My hide is thick and scarred from over the many years here.  I have cut my presence here way back cuz I have little new to add to anything I've already said in these follytics threads.  More rebuttals than anything else.

 
And as buddy already pointed out, a proper rebuttal should address the topic at hand.

 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 27, 2016 - 7:24am

 kcar wrote:


Normally, I wouldn't expect a real estate developer like Trump to have a strong grasp of energy or global warming issues. But he should have gotten up to speed on these and other issues a long, long time ago. To win votes Trump is making promises, without regard to the facts or the chances of keeping those promises. Politicians do that during the primary season. 

But coupled with the fact that this guy has never held office, doesn't know how to forge coalitions in politics, repeatedly shows major ignorance about issues, and generally seems to be on an ego trip, he's clearly a disaster waiting to happen. There's a reason that the leaders of other nations are frightened and shocked  that Trump could win: Trump is totally unprepared, narcissistic and incapable of changing his mind. 

Finally, you wrote about trying a businessman as President or trying others besides politicians. We've already broken that ceiling. 

Woodrow Wilson was an academic before he became governor of NJ for two years and then President. Herbert Hoover as a very successful mining engineer for private and foreign public firms, a famous and very successful administrator of humanitarian efforts during and after WWI, and a political appointee (Head of US Food Administration as well as Sec. of Commerce) before he became President. Dwight Eisenhower was a career army officer, Supreme Allied Commander in Europe,  Governor of the US Occupation Zone in Germany and Army Chief of Staff before he became President. Ross Perot was given serious consideration as a non-politician candidate in '92 and '96.

 
Thanks for your thoughts.

Wilson was a governor before being POTUS.  Hoover as you pointed out had prior gov service as well.  Eisenhower does fit the definition of a non politician, but is a one off when its all said in done.  That and his military experience made him uniquely qualified to give it a good go.  He was courted by both parties to run and ended up deciding to be a repub.  Perot didn't do it.

At this point in time, we won't know until we get there.  Its easy to predict the worst possible outcome and dismiss on that basis.  I see a government so dysfunctional that I am willing to throw sand in the gears and go for an overhaul.  Anyone else will be business as usual and more of the same.  



 
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 26, 2016 - 10:47pm

 kurtster wrote:

And Trump has already recovered.  I see Cruz as the worst possible of the two.

No doubt Trump has an ego and confidence that enables him to push boundaries.  That's how you get things done in real estate development.  The egos to be found with developers and architects is not much different from those of actors, doctors, lawyers, politicians and preachers.  That's my view on that.  

Building something from nothing is a ballet.  The amount of coordination, timing, estimation of materials and bidding, organizing contractors, cash flow and dealing with politicians at the local, county, state and federal level, by way of zoning issues, infrastructure improvements, environmental issues and property taxation is enormous.  Then try doing all that in a foreign country, over and over again.  But I know of this and wonder what the general public knows about any of this.  I'd like to think that its common knowledge, but I suspect not.

...

I want to break this glass ceiling that says only politicians can govern this country.  Who says a business man can't run this country ?  We'll never know until we try.  We have checks and balances that keep us on the rails as a country.  They should still work even if Trump is elected.

peace out ... 

 
Thanks for writing about your experiences and your dad's. It's always interesting to read about other people's lives and you have some great points about Trump's life. 

Trump is not a dumb man. He's had some real success with real estate projects along with some major disasters. He likely has deep experience with planning and executing detailed projects that he's been involved with and he has a knack at getting people to go along with him.

However, those abilities haven't really shown up in this campaign. His policies come across as hastily thought up and divorced from political, legal or financial and practical realities.  

This article about Trump's plans concerning energy production and global warming really point that out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/27/us/politics/donald-trump-global-warming-energy-policy.html 

“Many of his proposals thus far don’t seem to appreciate the complex forces that drive the energy system,” said Richard G. Newell, an energy economist at Duke University who has closely followed Mr. Trump’s remarks.

...

A central question confronting the next president will be how to address climate change. Mr. Trump, who has repeatedly denied the established science that climate change is caused by humans, vowed in his speech to undo many of Mr. Obama’s initiatives.

He did not explicitly address the scientific legitimacy of human-caused climate change, but said, “We’re going to deal with real environmental challenges, not the phony ones we’ve been hearing about.”

Mr. Trump said that in his first 100 days in office, he would “rescind” Environmental Protection Agency regulations established under Mr. Obama to curb planet-warming emissions from coal-fired power plants.

...
 
“Regulations that shut down hundreds of coal-fired power plants and block the construction of new ones — how stupid is that?” Mr. Trump said.

However, the next president will not have the legal authority to unilaterally rescind the climate rules, which are now being litigated in federal courts. 

 ...

Other elements of Mr. Trump’s energy proposals appear less viable. As coal mining jobs have declined, Mr. Trump has vowed to fully restore their numbers.

...

It is unclear how Mr. Trump could restore lost jobs in the coal industry. As domestic coal demand has declined, companies have laid off thousands of miners. But economists say that shift is driven by market forces: The natural gas boom led power companies to buy cheaper gas rather than coal.

“Most analysts would say that coal is hurting because natural gas prices have collapsed,” said Robert McNally, the president of the Rapidan Group, an energy consulting firm, and a senior energy official in the George W. Bush administration. “Donald Trump would have to find a way to raise natural gas prices.”


Normally, I wouldn't expect a real estate developer like Trump to have a strong grasp of energy or global warming issues. But he should have gotten up to speed on these and other issues a long, long time ago. To win votes Trump is making promises, without regard to the facts or the chances of keeping those promises. Politicians do that during the primary season. 

But coupled with the fact that this guy has never held office, doesn't know how to forge coalitions in politics, repeatedly shows major ignorance about issues, and generally seems to be on an ego trip, he's clearly a disaster waiting to happen. There's a reason that the leaders of other nations are frightened and shocked  that Trump could win: Trump is totally unprepared, narcissistic and incapable of changing his mind. 

Finally, you wrote about trying a businessman as President or trying others besides politicians. We've already broken that ceiling.

Woodrow Wilson was an academic before he became governor of NJ for two years and then President. Herbert Hoover as a very successful mining engineer for private and foreign public firms, a famous and very successful administrator of humanitarian efforts during and after WWI, and a political appointee (Head of US Food Administration as well as Sec. of Commerce) before he became President. Dwight Eisenhower was a career army officer, Supreme Allied Commander in Europe,  Governor of the US Occupation Zone in Germany and Army Chief of Staff before he became President. Ross Perot was given serious consideration as a non-politician candidate in '92 and '96.

 


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 9:48pm

 Steely_D wrote:

That's as arbitrary of a glass ceiling as Hillary's "first woman" or Obama's "first black" ceilings. They're not a reason to put someone in the White House. I wouldn't vote for any of them (Trump, Hillary, Obama) for those reasons.

 
Clinton and Obama are both professional politicians, despite their other qualities.

The politician only glass ceiling is hardly arbitrary.  It is very definite.

It exists and remains in place out of fear that is deeply ingrained and proved by trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. 
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 8:46pm

 kurtster wrote:
I want to break this glass ceiling that says only politicians can govern this country.  Who says a business man can't run this country ?  We'll never know until we try.  We have checks and balances that keep us on the rails as a country.  They should still work even if Trump is elected.
 
That's as arbitrary of a glass ceiling as Hillary's "first woman" or Obama's "first black" ceilings. They're not a reason to put someone in the White House. I wouldn't vote for any of them (Trump, Hillary, Obama) for those reasons.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 8:22pm

 kcar wrote:


Maybe you're right about real estate developers boasting all the time about how wonderful they are and how everything they do is the biggest and best, but I don't recall any real estate developers equalling Trump's extreme and obnoxious behavior. 

Let's put that aside. Trump isn't running for a development position. He's campaigning to be the most important and powerful politician in our country. Do you think his boasting and abusiveness and refusal to cooperate with his others is going to help him succeed or fail with Congress, the Supreme Court, state governments, and other countries?  

Look at how quickly Ted Cruz alienated fellow members  of his own party serving in Congress. John Boehner called him "Lucifer in the Flesh" and said "I have never worked with a more miserable son of a bitch in my life." Trump is far, far worse than Cruz. Trump as President would poison our relations with just about every other country in the world.  

 
And Trump has already recovered.  I see Cruz as the worst possible of the two.

No doubt Trump has an ego and confidence that enables him to push boundaries.  That's how you get things done in real estate development.  The egos to be found with developers and architects is not much different from those of actors, doctors, lawyers, politicians and preachers.  That's my view on that.  

Building something from nothing is a ballet.  The amount of coordination, timing, estimation of materials and bidding, organizing contractors, cash flow and dealing with politicians at the local, county, state and federal level, by way of zoning issues, infrastructure improvements, environmental issues and property taxation is enormous.  Then try doing all that in a foreign country, over and over again.  But I know of this and wonder what the general public knows about any of this.  I'd like to think that its common knowledge, but I suspect not.

You don't get very many opportunities to screw up and stay in business on the level that Trump deals with.  You can't get very far if you're surrounded by yes men either.  It requires you to listen to all sides and find a way to make all sides happy.  I have watched all this happen throughout my own life growing up.

My Dad was a California licensed architect who went to Cal.  He accomplished many things before he passed.  He was the primary architect and coordinator for Leisure World's expansion in the 60's starting in Walnut Creek, Ca and then moving south to take over Laguna Hills in Orange County and other projects like the one in New Jersey.  He was personally responsible for getting PVC plumbing allowed in the California State building code.  They had to build a house and burn it down to satisfy the fire requirements.  I have a recollection of actually watching the fire.  Next, he went to work for Bechtel (that big nasty contractor) and oversaw their first venture into residential development on the old Warner Brother's Ranch in Calabasas , Ca.  We moved east to Philly in 68 where he worked for Korman Corporation and a stint with HUD, before we moved to Ohio in 71 and he worked on a residential development that lasted some 20 years.  Along the way, he did many other projects, big and small, commercial residential and industrial.  He designed and built the original Dymo Label factory in the SF East Bay back in the very early 60's.  Right around the time that John Glenn took his ride.  We were making ton's of labels that said  A / OK and passing them out and sticking them on anything that didn't move fast enough.  Somewhere I have one of the prototypes of the original metal label maker.

Me, besides having lived through all of that, I have a very current 2007 BBA in Organizational Management that was run like a Masters program, which I came out magna cum laude, if I do say so.  My wife was a licensed general contractor in California and launched her own business here when she moved out her 15 years ago.  I only mention all this to offer that I have some credibility on this.  Its not like I'm an English major preaching how to run a business.  No offense to all the English majors.

This is the filter I use to see past all of his rhetoric and bluster.  And I'm only speaking his about skills as a business man.  The other parts ... everyone can come to their own conclusions.

I want to break this glass ceiling that says only politicians can govern this country.  Who says a business man can't run this country ?  We'll never know until we try.  We have checks and balances that keep us on the rails as a country.  They should still work even if Trump is elected.

peace out ... 


R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 5:31pm

 kcar wrote:
(...) Trump as President would poison our relations with just about every other country in the world. 
 
Obviously speculative, however some people, of a myopic exceptionally unilateral bent, likely couldn't care less. We dictate, you follow. Like telling your neighbour you're building a wall and getting them to pay for it.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 26, 2016 - 5:21pm

 kurtster wrote:

Those remarks are not directed at you.  You generally take me seriously and respectfully as I try and do you.  

Just to offer a thought on the bolded.  Trump comes from the world of real estate.  Its an entirely different animal than any other kind of business.  His demeanor is what is required to get it done in that world.  You must constantly sell yourself to convince others (like banks and financiers) that you have a real vision, the required resources to get it done and the will to get it done, just to get things off of blueprints and actual shovels in the ground.  I grew up in that world and that's some of why I cut him slack on a lot of his stuff.

 

 

Maybe you're right about real estate developers boasting all the time about how wonderful they are and how everything they do is the biggest and best, but I don't recall any real estate developers equalling Trump's extreme and obnoxious behavior. 

Let's put that aside. Trump isn't running for a development position. He's campaigning to be the most important and powerful politician in our country. Do you think his boasting and abusiveness and refusal to cooperate with his others is going to help him succeed or fail with Congress, the Supreme Court, state governments, and other countries?  

Look at how quickly Ted Cruz alienated fellow members  of his own party serving in Congress. John Boehner called him "Lucifer in the Flesh" and said "I have never worked with a more miserable son of a bitch in my life." Trump is far, far worse than Cruz. Trump as President would poison our relations with just about every other country in the world.  
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 5:09pm

 kcar wrote:

I don't recall questioning your character or intelligence. As far as I can tell, your preference for Trump is based at least partly on your personal experiences with illegal immigration. I think Bernie is also speaking to Americans' personal experiences with expensive health care and college education. My guess is that voters will support the candidate who talks about their problems directly.
 
I put the same questions to supporters of Trump and Sanders: how are your candidate's promises supposed to become law or policy? Given the realities of Washington, what are the chances that those promises become reality? How much are they really going to cost? Aren't you worried that your candidate can't or won't provide you with details of implementation that make sense? 

Clinton's promises deserve the same scrutiny and skepticism. All three candidates are promising big changes to America. Responsible voters are going to demand all the details and assess whether a candidate is actually going to get anything done.

I dislike Trump because he promises the moon but can't explain how he's going to make his promises reality. Many of his promises don't work even as theory. Some of his ideas (like the ones on global warming) would get him a failing grade on a high school quiz on current events.

The main reason I dislike Trump is that he never stops bragging and insulting. Most of us have come across someone like that in our lives—mostly in junior high or high school—and we don't want to have anything to do with that person.

The Trump I see talks mostly about the Magnificence of Trump. Most politicians have healthy egos but are basically driven to help others. Trump just wants to glorify Trump.  

 
Those remarks are not directed at you.  You generally take me seriously and respectfully as I try and do you.  

Just to offer a thought on the bolded.  Trump comes from the world of real estate.  Its an entirely different animal than any other kind of business.  His demeanor is what is required to get it done in that world.  You must constantly sell yourself to convince others (like banks and financiers) that you have a real vision, the required resources to get it done and the will to get it done, just to get things off of blueprints and actual shovels in the ground.  I grew up in that world and that's some of why I cut him slack on a lot of his stuff.

 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 5:00pm

 aflanigan wrote:

I think maybe you need a break. You decide out of the blue to answer a post that was not even directed to you with a red herring, and then get all defensive when your attempt at misdirection is called out by buddy.

I don't apply the labels you mention to you or any other posters. I focus on the alleged qualifications of Trump, and on my opinion of the statements people make on his behalf. I try to avoid ad hominem attacks. 

If you truly are sick of it all, why do you engage? And are you really entitled to play the martyr card? I can't speak for others, but myself, I still believe that we can have civil discourse on any topic.  Perhaps there is a specific person here who has called you "stupid", "racist", "xenophobic", "homophobic", "bigoted", etc., and if so, they shouldn't (I think speech or behavior that has these characteristics, particularly that of a candidate for office, deserves to be called out). But painting everyone who disagrees with you with the same broad stereotype based on ad hominem attacks and labels that you're likely to see on 4chan is not going to gain you any sympathy from those you are trying to persuade.

 
Pot kettle black ...

I have no problems with buddy and I think he knows how to read me without any explanations.

Martyr, really ?  You've got to be kidding.  Just calling em as I see em.  My hide is thick and scarred from over the many years here.  I have cut my presence here way back cuz I have little new to add to anything I've already said in these follytics threads.  More rebuttals than anything else.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 3:14pm

 kcar wrote:
The main reason I dislike Trump is that he never stops bragging and insulting. Most of us have come across someone like that in our lives—mostly in junior high or high school—and we don't want to have anything to do with that person.

The Trump I see is all about Donald Trump. Most politicians have healthy egos but are basically driven to help others. Trump just wants to glorify Trump.  
 
I have the same general approach when I look at hiring people. Some of what I judge them on is their knowledge background: are they incompetent or at least trained? But that alone isn't the only criterion.
Once I know they're trained in the scope of what I expect them to do, I wonder about their character. Will they get along with their colleagues? Will they form alliances or create drama?

Applying that to the Presidency, Trump is clearly incompetent in the ways of how all of our government works, since he's never held public office ever.
But, is it made up for by his ability to form alliances that create an upward moving team? There are certainly factions that will align behind him, but not the nation. 
DaveInSaoMiguel

DaveInSaoMiguel Avatar

Location: No longer in a hovel in effluent Damnville, VA
Gender: Male


Posted: May 26, 2016 - 3:13pm


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