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Index »
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Trump
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kcar


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kurtster

Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 4:48pm |
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pigtail wrote: Um no.......You are assuming all of us are resentful because he is rich. I could care less how well off he and his family are. Please don't discount that fact that his daddy made the money, not him. Also, what says that the amount of money you make, make you a success in life? If anyone is the epitome of that myth, its Trump. Trump is NOT living my fantasy life. He is an abomination of exactly what is wrong with morality, judgement and is unfortunately in a position to represent me due to his position in the country. I have no problem with him taking his riches and doing what he wishes to do, lawfully.
Just chipping away at the myths one at a time. Going from memory, upon graduation from Wharton, his father loaned him $1 or $10 mil to get started and he paid the amount back. He got a head start, but made the most of an opportunity. Come the end of the 1980's IIRC he was down to under a $100 million. Since then he has bounced back to $3 billion (at least). He made that money. His daddy din't give it to him. That is a major accomplishment. At least in my book. You don't recover like that by being stupid. He did that in real estate, not Wall Street. So regardless of everything else, his daddy just gave him a head start. The rest he did. I doubt this knowledge will change anyone's opinion of him, but at least be aware of the real circumstances of his wealth and how he got it.
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Red_Dragon

Location: Gilead 
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 4:22pm |
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Red_Dragon

Location: Gilead 
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 4:20pm |
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Lazy8 wrote:Don't let the perfectly awful be the enemy of the imperfectly awful. I honestly can't decide which is the frying pan and which the fire.
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islander

Location: West coast somewhere Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 4:07pm |
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Lazy8 wrote:Don't let the perfectly awful be the enemy of the imperfectly awful. Hmmm... I'll take awful and incompetent at enacting a horrible agenda over Holier than me and and likely to legislate it that way.
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aflanigan

Location: At Sea Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 2:58pm |
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Geez, what is this, the Lazy8 tongue bath forum?? (He does have sparkly eyes, though) p.s. My kids wouldn't put me in a political reeducation camp, but if I get too drooly and raving they might try to save $ by keeping me penned in the back yard.
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maryte

Location: Blinding You With Library Science! Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 2:02pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: Beanie wrote:BTW. F*cking brilliant. Really. Shucks, but while my inner smartass can't help but snark like that my emerging politician feels like it's too clever by a quarter or so. A dog whistle to people who get the reference and a dig at people who don't. Those two battle all the time. Usually the snark wins. Which is why we love you. Or maybe that's just me.
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Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:57pm |
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Beanie wrote:BTW. F*cking brilliant. Really. Shucks, but while my inner smartass can't help but snark like that my emerging politician feels like it's too clever by a quarter or so. A dog whistle to people who get the reference and a dig at people who don't. Those two battle all the time. Usually the snark wins.
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Beanie

Location: under the jellicle moon Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:52pm |
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Red_Dragon wrote: But... Pence
Well, yeah. There is that. So ideally, you wait until after the 2018 election, so you can flip the Senate and neutralize him. But I don't know if we will survive that long. Might have to take our chances with him having all of Congress for 8 months or so...
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Beanie

Location: under the jellicle moon Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:50pm |
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Lazy8 wrote:
I also want to point out that almost none of the Trump voters I know live in dystopian trailer park ghettos, wallowing in despair and opioid addiction—most of those folks don't vote for anybody. They have reasonably comfortable lives for the most part, and they care about their country. My trucker friend is making a decent living, but he's constantly having to deal with new burdens imposed on him and he's scrambling to keep from sliding backward rather than to get ahead. Yeah, that's a sample size of one, but if I tell you about the other hundred or so people I know who voted for MAGAmemnon I'd have to tell you an equally long story about each, and their unique problems. Problems that only look like nails if they aren't yours. BTW. F*cking brilliant. Really.
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Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:47pm |
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Red_Dragon wrote:But... Pence Don't let the perfectly awful be the enemy of the imperfectly awful.
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Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:45pm |
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aflanigan wrote:Let's hope they don't find out too much about our political opinions, or they might be the ones who put us behind the fence. p.s. I love the "MAGAmemnon" moniker. May I steal it with attribution? Let's try to stop the powers that be from putting thoughtcrimes on the books so both of us can sleep easier. And have at it, attribution or no.
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Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:43pm |
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aflanigan wrote:To a certain extent, yes. But as this article points out, there is a substantial amount of political math involved in the calculus of impeachment (is that a mixed metaphor?). If Trump's numbers were to slide down to the neighborhood of Nixon's popularity just prior to resigning, the odds are probably greater for his removal from office if the GOP leadership in Congress believes they see the writing on the wall. It is unlikely that Trump's popularity would go below 30% if he keeps the loyalty of his base; hence, the answer people (especially die hard members of his base of support) provide to the question of "do you support Trump" is potentially relevant. The answer to the question means a lot to a congressman with his finger to the wind. To the person answering the question? Not so much.
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aflanigan

Location: At Sea Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:15pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: My free time is largely gone. I'm neglecting more-enjoyable pursuits (like arguing on the internet and riding motorcycles) but I have to face those grandkids someday. And I don't want to do it thru a barbed wire fence.
Let's hope they don't find out too much about our political opinions, or they might be the ones who put us behind the fence. p.s. I love the "MAGAmemnon" moniker. May I steal it with attribution?
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aflanigan

Location: At Sea Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:12pm |
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Lazy8 wrote:
He's the president. Support, at this point, is irrelevant. To a certain extent, yes. But as this article points out, there is a substantial amount of political math involved in the calculus of impeachment (is that a mixed metaphor?). If Trump's numbers were to slide down to the neighborhood of Nixon's popularity just prior to resigning, the odds are probably greater for his removal from office if the GOP leadership in Congress believes they see the writing on the wall. It is unlikely that Trump's popularity would go below 30% if he keeps the loyalty of his base; hence, the answer people (especially die hard members of his base of support) provide to the question of "do you support Trump" is potentially relevant.
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Red_Dragon

Location: Gilead 
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:10pm |
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Beanie wrote:Yay! We agree!  AND I think he needs to be impeached. But... Pence
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Beanie

Location: under the jellicle moon Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 1:08pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: Beanie wrote:So given that he's clearly NOT helping ANYone but himself...not the trailer park folks, not the struggling farmer, not the barely-afloat trucker, not the single working mom in the city, not the small business owner...NO ONE, what do YOU propose we do? Is he effective? Is he forwarding an agenda that benefits ANY of the assuredly-good folks you talk to? If the answer is "yes; he's making the quality of life better for all these good folks over here that you and your little liberal bubble don't see", then OK. But I don't see it.
So lacking that, is there a better alternative to "impeach him and kick ourselves in the ass for electing someone this destructive; let's all see if we can do a better job of this whole representative democracy thing from now on". Because I don't see a better alternative. He shows no sign of regaining any semblance of mental health or productivity, attempting to unite a desperately broken congress or even putting a reasonable and achievable policy agenda forward. And given that, it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.
So what do you propose?
From my POV, the only hope right now is that the collective disdain for Trump MIGHT actually get congress to get their heads out of their nethers and start working in a bipartisan way. MIGHT. God help us otherwise. We've all had to answer that question, haven't we? Can't speak for anyone but myself, but when my grandkids ask me what I did about it I didn't want my answer to be "I carried a sign" or "I rocked a hashtag." I want to do something real, something effective. Here's what that looks like so far: - Funding legal challenges to policies that violate the law and/or constitution
- Funding and/or volunteering for organizations that do what I think needs doing, especially those things under threat by the administration
- Organizing political opposition
The easy things—like documenting his misdeeds so they can't be ignored—are already well-covered. That amounts to complaining. It won't get anyone out of jail, it won't stop a bullet, it won't stop a cruise missile. At least not right away. I mean if that's all you can do then do it, but if we have a choice between exhausting ourselves with pointless protest or putting shoulders to the wheel I'm going to try and make a positive, lasting change. And...it's exhausting. My free time is largely gone. I'm neglecting more-enjoyable pursuits (like arguing on the internet and riding motorcycles) but I have to face those grandkids someday. And I don't want to do it thru a barbed wire fence. Yay! We agree!  AND I think he needs to be impeached.
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Lazy8

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:53pm |
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Beanie wrote:So given that he's clearly NOT helping ANYone but himself...not the trailer park folks, not the struggling farmer, not the barely-afloat trucker, not the single working mom in the city, not the small business owner...NO ONE, what do YOU propose we do? Is he effective? Is he forwarding an agenda that benefits ANY of the assuredly-good folks you talk to? If the answer is "yes; he's making the quality of life better for all these good folks over here that you and your little liberal bubble don't see", then OK. But I don't see it.
So lacking that, is there a better alternative to "impeach him and kick ourselves in the ass for electing someone this destructive; let's all see if we can do a better job of this whole representative democracy thing from now on". Because I don't see a better alternative. He shows no sign of regaining any semblance of mental health or productivity, attempting to unite a desperately broken congress or even putting a reasonable and achievable policy agenda forward. And given that, it's just going to keep getting worse and worse.
So what do you propose?
From my POV, the only hope right now is that the collective disdain for Trump MIGHT actually get congress to get their heads out of their nethers and start working in a bipartisan way. MIGHT. God help us otherwise. We've all had to answer that question, haven't we? Can't speak for anyone but myself, but when my grandkids ask me what I did about it I didn't want my answer to be "I carried a sign" or "I rocked a hashtag." I want to do something real, something effective. Here's what that looks like so far: - Funding legal challenges to policies that violate the law and/or constitution
- Funding and/or volunteering for organizations that do what I think needs doing, especially those things under threat by the administration
- Organizing political opposition
The easy things—like documenting his misdeeds so they can't be ignored—are already well-covered. That amounts to complaining. It won't get anyone out of jail, it won't stop a bullet, it won't stop a cruise missile. At least not right away. I mean if that's all you can do then do it, but if we have a choice between exhausting ourselves with pointless protest or putting shoulders to the wheel I'm going to try and make a positive, lasting change. And...it's exhausting. My free time is largely gone. I'm neglecting more-enjoyable pursuits (like arguing on the internet and riding motorcycles) but I have to face those grandkids someday. And I don't want to do it thru a barbed wire fence.
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Beanie

Location: under the jellicle moon Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:24pm |
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steeler wrote:I don't get it, either. I have read through the interesting discussion on this thread today, and, like Beanie, I have read columns like those of Clive Crook and have had numerous discussions on the same subject, in person and on the Internet, with both Trump supporters and those who are becoming more and more distressed by the Trump presidency. I have friends and relatives who voted for Trump, and I have had discussions with them. A few points I wish to make: What I do not get is that a Trump voter/supporter is doubling down on his or her support of Trump because of his or her perception that he or she —and those like him or her — is being disrespected by (1) the "liberal media"; (2) liberal "elites," especially the "coastal elites;" and, generally, (3) those in the "establishment." There is irony here in that it appears that these kind of Trump supporters are frustrated by their belief that their views are being reduced to a monolith, yet they view those so reducing them as being part of monoliths. I get that no one wants his or her views, or his or her vote, to be summarily dismissed and assailed in personal terms. No one wants to be labeled as "racist" or "stupid" because of his or her views, or how he or she votes. That I get. But the charge here is that the liberal media and the elites are uniformly doing just that instead of engaging these Trump supporters in dialogue to try to understand their views and positions. That they are not listening to the Trump supporters; that they are being condescending, purporting to know better. I certainly see some of that. But I see more attempts at engaging. This listening thing is a 2-way street. I do not see that many Trump supporters willing to engage in dialogue – in person or on the Internet. Instead, criticisms of Trump and his policies are more and more being dismissed as part of a monolithic response: they are just opposed to anything Trump does. The media is engaging in “fake news” to try to discredit Trump and impose its own agenda. So are the “elites” and the “establishment.” In sum, there is no point in listening to their criticisms. So who is not engaging? Frankly, that long has been a problem in this country, the lack of engagement on issues of importance. We simply are not very good at it, and it has gnawed at our democracy for a long time now. But to charge that this is the province of one faction, or one side of the political spectrum? Please. Who were the ones chanting “lock her up, lock her up” at Trump rallies? Were they implying that those who voted for Hillary were stupidly voting for a criminal who long has had perpetrating evil on her mind and on her agenda? What I also am hearing is that for a good chunk of these Trump supporters Trump himself is irrelevant. My support/defense of him is increasing because I’ll be damned if I am going to let them tell me what I should think and do. I’ll show them! But show them what, exactly? This smacks of cutting off my nose to spite my face. Think about it – the President is irrelevant to my support of him. I am supporting something larger than him. I am sending a message to those who refuse to engage me, refuse to listen to me, summarily dismiss me and my views. Under those circumstances – assuming them to be widely present — how will that message be received? One thing is abundantly clear to me in all of this: Trump engages in propaganda on a daily basis; it is his stock in trade. He has thrown gas on the fire that has us questioning each other and all of our institutions. I fear the consequences down the road, well past the time Trump has left office. He is not irrelevant. Yes, we have checks and balances wisely built into our constitutional system, but that does not render any President irrelevant. The bully pulpit alone is an immense power. It can be used to pit us against one another or to draw us together – or anything in between. Yes, yes and exactly. THAT is why impeachment is an imperative. If we are going to avert two generations of damage to this nation, his censure, his fall, his rebuke and rejection have to be complete. Look, I think the entire nation gets it. People want to feel like they're valued for who they are, warts and all. They need to regain dignity and respect that was lost when the economy evolved in a different direction. They don't want food stamps, they want to be paid a living wage. There is 30 years of damaging neo-con propaganda to undo...then the hard work of reforming the minimum wage and health care systems, and the biggest freaking listening tour in history to come in order to give everybody a chance. But the healing can't start until he's gone.
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Beanie

Location: under the jellicle moon Gender:  
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Posted:
Aug 29, 2017 - 12:10pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: Beanie wrote:Well, and I guess that's my point. I *DO* talk with people who voted for Trump. And they all say the same thing..."Well but Hilary Clinton..." and "Well, but THEY (the ubiquitous "they") ignore us and don't listen". OK, yeah, I get it, I tell them. You need to be heard. But THEN what??? Like, exactly HOW are Trump supporters better off today than yesterday, except that now they have someone who they can blame OUT LOUD for the fact that society is changing and evolving and that scares them??? To a person, they have made the same argument..."well, but someone has to do something for us, the insurance companies/ the factories/ the "system" is destroying me." And they can't, ot refuse to, or at least DON'T understand that his so-called "policies" not only don't solve those problems but actually will leave them WORSE OFF. than before he got here. I mean, I freaking wrote an article about this a year and a half ago. http://beaniegrrl.blogspot.com/2016/03/its-not-about-nail.htmlIt's not that I don't understand that they feel left behind. I just don't understand why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that this man is nothing but a continuous series of smoke/mirrors/more smoke/more mirrors that they continue to stand by him! Even when it's clear that he's a racist, a bigot, a misogynist, a xenophobe and unrepentantly self-interested, they still support him. Even when it's clear that they are getting painted with his brush. I'm just shaking my head, I guess. I had hoped perhaps that folks would have opened their eyes by now. Hell, if it's just a matter of listening and saying "you poor bastard", have them call me. I'll listen. And I won't steal their wallets while I'm there. I think you're asking Trump supporters the wrong question. What does "Do you still support Trump" mean? Are you sorry you voted for him? Do you wish you had a do-over on the election? Do you want him impeached, and the federal government ground to a halt for months while Congress tries to get a do-over on the election? He's the president. Support, at this point, is irrelevant. OK, I don't support him—he's still president. You can't have a do-over on the election. And if we did have a do-over, with the choice being Hillary or Trump, they'd still choose Trump. I know very few people—even those who voted for him—who like him. They make Scott Adams-like rationalizations about him: the things I disagree with are just negotiating tactics, you don't hire a nice guy for a lawyer when you're in a legal fight, etc. They have to live with their choice, but they made that choice and their preference won't be relevant for another 3 years. As for nails: of course it's about the nail! After all, I've got a hammer, so your problem is a nail. And I've got a hammer right here, let me help you with that problem of yours that you clearly don't understand as well as I do. See how well that sells? You want to force their problems into your solutions, solutions that haven't changed in decades—and it's not like you haven't had a chance to try them. Along comes a huckster telling them that the last solution didn't perform as advertised, but he'll do something different. Different may not be better, but the same hasn't done much for them. They don't have a clear basis to make that call on, but the guy selling different is allegedly fabulously successful, so he must know something they don't. I also want to point out that almost none of the Trump voters I know live in dystopian trailer park ghettos, wallowing in despair and opioid addiction—most of those folks don't vote for anybody. They have reasonably comfortable lives for the most part, and they care about their country. My trucker friend is making a decent living, but he's constantly having to deal with new burdens imposed on him and he's scrambling to keep from sliding backward rather than to get ahead. Yeah, that's a sample size of one, but if I tell you about the other hundred or so people I know who voted for MAGAmemnon I'd have to tell you an equally long story about each, and their unique problems. Problems that only look like nails if they aren't yours. Fair enough. So given that he's clearly NOT helping ANYone but himself...not the trailer park folks, not the struggling farmer, not the barely-afloat trucker, not the single working mom in the city, not the small business owner...NO ONE, what do YOU propose we do? Is he achieving ANYthing? Is he forwarding an agenda that benefits ANY of the assuredly-good folks you talk to? If the answer is "yes; he's making the quality of life better for all these good folks over here that you and your little liberal bubble don't see", then OK. But I don't see it. In fact, the government is already at a halt. So lacking that, is there a better alternative to "impeach him and kick ourselves in the ass for electing someone this destructive; let's all see if we can do a better job of this whole representative democracy thing from now on". Because I don't see a better alternative. He shows no sign of regaining any semblance of mental health or productivity, attempting to unite a desperately broken congress or even putting a reasonable and achievable policy agenda forward. And given that, it's just going to keep getting worse and worse. So what do you propose? From my POV, the only hope right now is that the collective disdain for Trump MIGHT actually get congress to get their heads out of their nethers and start working in a bipartisan way. MIGHT. God help us otherwise. Edit: And if he's impeached, it would, of course, be Pence...who frankly is a cold-hearted SOB, but is sane. Which probably makes him even more dangerous. The only hope is for a flip of at least the Senate in 2018 to balance his "screw the poor, the disabled, the minorities and the gays" agenda. Look, Marty, you're a good guy and I respect you. You make some good points. But this man in the White House is going to make things worse for every single one of us except Trump and his cronies...and then maybe eve not his cronies.
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