I need look no further than the IRS and Lois Lerner and how they affected the outcome of the 2012 elections as the first solid example of the current and most dubious manifestation. Lazy has provided other examples below that are actually more benign.
By his own admission, he never saw Trump as POTUS. He saw him as a criminal and liar and treated him that way. We heard that Comey always wrote memos to himself, until we find out that is not true, he only started doing it with Trump. Because he thought of him as a criminal first and only a criminal. He leaked like a sieve. Rubio was right, everything got leaked except that Trump was not being investigated.
Going back to my opening point about the IRS, IIRC, you were never outraged by it or believed that they had done anything wrong nor was their any underlying unspoken directives, nor did you subscribe that the White House participated in any direction at any level. Funny how everyone walked, not one person was fired, even with the deliberate destruction and obfuscation of evidence.
Now we have the current member Reality Winner or whatever she calls herself who released classified information, not for altruistic reasons, but to bring down Trump as has been well documented on her social media posts. Look at the fight over trying to change rules so that Federal Employees can actually be fired as with the Veterans Administration. This is a manifestation of the Deep State trying to protect itself.
You and everyone else can believe that there is no such thing as the Deep State. I guess we'll have to disagree and you will call me paranoid and crazy. No worries, I'm used to it. The more things change, the more they remain the same, so its been said.
"You and everyone else can believe that there is no such thing as the Deep State. I guess we'll have to disagree and you will call me paranoid and crazy."
Hey, Spicey is right there with you:
Should we call this a vast left-wing conspiracy? Or maybe Comey is just trying to document improper, unethical and possibly illegal statements made by Trump. Comey was convinced that Trump was obstructing justice and leaked the memos to create a call for a special prosecutor. Frankly, I'm relieved that Mueller is in place because I don't trust Republicans in Congress to investigate the matter thoroughly.
The investigations into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia are not the Deep State trying to sabotage Trump. If this were some Deep State conspiracy, it would not be playing out in public on C-Span and the Washington Post in real time. Donnie is screwing up all on his own without anyone's help.The man clearly cannot shut up and stop sabotaging himself. If he had any idea of what "obstruction of justice" can mean, he would never have talked to the FBI Director, the DNI and the NSA Director about killing the investigation into Mike Flynn. Do you hear Republicans in Congress talking conspiracy against Trump or stating that we don't need these investigations? I don't. The things that we know about what Trump has said and done regarding those investigations into collusion with the Russian government are far worse than Clinton lying about Monica Lewinsky.
Trump is narcissistic, incompetent and mentally ill. That should be obvious to everyone at this point. Trump cannot get out an executive order on travel restrictions to save his life, mainly because he keeps trumpeting a flagrant bias against Muslims. Trumpcare is a screaming disaster that would throw 23-24 million off insurance coverage. The tax-cut "plan" that Trump's pushing makes no sense.
Those policy proposals were supposed to be well thought-out and shepherded through Congress, but they're absolute jokes. It's not surprising that Trump's stupidity and rashness prevented him from checking about what he could safely say to Comey, Rogers and Coats. If he can't succeed at the big projects, he's surely not going to confer with lawyers about whether he can get Comey et al. to lay off Flynn.
Don has brought this investigative mess on himself. Our government is supposed to respond to Trump's behavior at least roughly as it is now. I'm pretty sure you closely followed Watergate controversy as that came into the public eye. I'm with Comey when he says, "Lordy, I hope there are tapes."
And that's why his lawyer was listening to the testimony with him. Too bad for the patrons of the DC bar that was going to give a free round of drinks each time he tweeted during the hearing. Hmm, maybe they knew something.
Then we're even more sequestered from what's going on. With the admonition to not listen to any news that's not Fox & Friends, and the erosion of the press briefings, how do we know what's going on there? The Tweets are the most real and honest indicator, direct to the public, of the state of our Presidency.
This is the political/governmental version of a bogeyman, a specter that cannot be adequately disproven because it is akin to proving a negative.
So we have the specter of this covert group of professional government types who wield power from within the nooks and crannies of the federal government without accountability and disproportionate to their station in the government.
This is the Trump schtick. I am being opposed by sinister forces, largely unknown to the public, because I am seeking to disrupt their monopoly, to expose these proverbial cockroaches by bringing them into the light. I am the people's champion and anyone opposed to me or my agenda most assuredly is part of this conspiracy.
I need look no further than the IRS and Lois Lerner and how they affected the outcome of the 2012 elections as the first solid example of the current and most dubious manifestation. Lazy has provided other examples below that are actually more benign.
By his own admission, he never saw Trump as POTUS. He saw him as a criminal and liar and treated him that way. We heard that Comey always wrote memos to himself, until we find out that is not true, he only started doing it with Trump. Because he thought of him as a criminal first and only a criminal. He leaked like a sieve. Rubio was right, everything got leaked except that Trump was not being investigated.
Going back to my opening point about the IRS, IIRC, you were never outraged by it or believed that they had done anything wrong nor was their any underlying unspoken directives, nor did you subscribe that the White House participated in any direction at any level. Funny how everyone walked, not one person was fired, even with the deliberate destruction and obfuscation of evidence.
Now we have the current member Reality Winner or whatever she calls herself who released classified information, not for altruistic reasons, but to bring down Trump as has been well documented on her social media posts. Look at the fight over trying to change rules so that Federal Employees can actually be fired as with the Veterans Administration. This is a manifestation of the Deep State trying to protect itself.
You and everyone else can believe that there is no such thing as the Deep State. I guess we'll have to disagree and you will call me paranoid and crazy. No worries, I'm used to it. The more things change, the more they remain the same, so its been said.
Covert agencies conducting spying/intelligence gathering putatively in the name of defending the Constitution have been with us for decades. The growth of this branch of govt. post 9/11 has been reported on and is concerning/potentially alarming.
But the "Deep State" nonsense is classic black helicopter stuff.
It is...and it isn't.
There is a huge pool of career government employees, and among them are many agendas aside from those of whichever faction just won the white house/legislature. This serves as an enduring source of continuity, competence, grievance, and bases of power. You need examples? Oh yes you do!
The recent underground efforts by EPA, Park Service, Forest Service, NOAA, NASA, and other agency employees to challenge the incoming administration on climate change.
The efforts within the Border Patrol to support Trump's immigration proposals, both during and after the election.
The factions within the military who endeavor to protect missions or weapons systems that come under budgetary attack: the B1 bomber, to name a particularly ancient example; the Osprey VTOL transport, F-35 fighter, and A-10 ground attack airplanes to name more-recent (but still aerospace-related) examples.
Former Director Comey's testimony is a good example of the standard of independence our executive branch agencies are supposed to strive for. That independence from political control is admirable, not something to be feared for its own sake, but it comes with risks as well.
When the government at any level misbehaves it must be answerable via elections. If top of the executive power structure changes hands but nothing else changes the problem may be structural, which requires legislative or judicial relief.We have mechanisms to bring those fiefdoms to heel but the fiefdoms exist.
This is the political/governmental version of a bogeyman, a specter that cannot be adequately disproven because it is akin to proving a negative.
So we have the specter of this covert group of professional government types who wield power from within the nooks and crannies of the federal government without accountability and disproportionate to their station in the government.
This is the Trump schtick. I am being opposed by sinister forces, largely unknown to the public, because I am seeking to disrupt their monopoly, to expose these proverbial cockroaches by bringing them into the light. I am the people's champion and anyone opposed to me or my agenda most assuredly is part of this conspiracy.
I dont believe in some organized effort either...on the other hand, we do have an aggregate of individuals focused on their own self-interests, and increasingly acting without consideration that the other side has a valid point, let alone worthy of the air they breathe...so when a common enemy pops up (like Trump), the ugliness of it all comes floating to the top.
Are you talking about the government or the electorate?
maybe deep state is the wrong word/label (i rarely listen to political radio)
i think i got the term from bill moyers (heck it could have been richard - can't remember)
i'm talking about the tools via three letter agencies
FRONTLINE goes behind the headlines to reveal the dramatic inside story of the U.S. government’s massive and controversial secret surveillance program–and the lengths they went to trying to keep it hidden from the public. Part one goes inside Washington to piece together the secret political history of “The Program,” which began in the wake of Sept. 11 and continues today — even after the revelations of its existence by Edward Snowden. Part two explores the secret relationship between Silicon Valley and the National Security Agency: How have the government and tech companies worked together to gather and warehouse your data?
I saw part of the Frontline series and will watch the rest of it soon via Roku or online - some of their programs get a little too intense for late at night (or I get too sleepy) so I stream them later. The term "deep state" has become a catch phrase for the current administration and its adherents of late, which is likely why it was being discussed in this thread instead of the CIA/FBI/NRA, etc. threads.
Those are articles are more about the CIA, which has essentially been engaging in such practices since its inception; they're not about the "cabal" of entrenched bureaucrats whom Bannon and Trump would have us believe are conspiring against them. I guess it depends on the user of the term "deep state" and its context. A "shadow government" derived from the intelligence community is something different than is usually being yelled about on right-wing talk radio. There is also a Frontline piece on Steve Bannon.
maybe deep state is the wrong word/label (i rarely listen to political radio)
i think i got the term from bill moyers (heck it could have been richard - can't remember)
i'm talking about the tools via three letter agencies
FRONTLINE goes behind the headlines to reveal the dramatic inside story of the U.S. government’s massive and controversial secret surveillance program–and the lengths they went to trying to keep it hidden from the public. Part one goes inside Washington to piece together the secret political history of “The Program,” which began in the wake of Sept. 11 and continues today — even after the revelations of its existence by Edward Snowden. Part two explores the secret relationship between Silicon Valley and the National Security Agency: How have the government and tech companies worked together to gather and warehouse your data?
Covert agencies conducting spying/intelligence gathering putatively in the name of defending the Constitution have been with us for decades. The growth of this branch of govt. post 9/11 has been reported on and is concerning/potentially alarming.
But the "Deep State" nonsense is classic black helicopter stuff.
Those are articles are more about the CIA, which has essentially been engaging in such practices since its inception; they're not about the "cabal" of entrenched bureaucrats whom Bannon and Trump would have us believe are conspiring against them. I guess it depends on the user of the term "deep state" and its context. A "shadow government" derived from the intelligence community is something different than is usually being yelled about on right-wing talk radio. There is also a Frontline piece on Steve Bannon.
