sirdroseph wrote: 
Whether a particular person is considered part of the "Republican establishment" is not a  fact that one could look up.

 steeler wrote: 




No, look it up

 kurtster wrote: 
Paul is one who has come out against the Senate plan. Do you view him as part of the Republican establishment that  opposes Trump at every turn? 

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
My first choice was Rand Paul ... he didn't make the cut.

 kurtster wrote: 
Okay, I'll back up a little more: you said, "I knew he was involved with the Mafia, ...  That did not deter me in making my choice out of the binary one offered." But you chose Trump long before it was binary. There were two dozen people thinking about running but even before he announced, you chose the rapey mafia serial liar criminal over any of the other options. Don't try to make it sound like you were forced to hold your nose and vote for him because the only other option was Hillary. 

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
Yeah and you also know what I mean.  

When it came down to how many could actually win, there was only two.

And Ohio was in play ...

 kurtster wrote: 

 
Binary means 2.

 maryte wrote:

 
details, details.

The Centre for Research on Globalization (cited by lowphreak) is a very poor source for anything that rational people might consider factual.

 LowPhreak wrote: 

So the NSA and the Mainstream Media (MSM) are running a propaganda campaign. Against Trump. Because they don't want him to be president. Oh wait he already is.

So...they're running this propaganda campaign...together...against Trump because they want Congress to impeach Trump? Even though that's not going to happen as long as the GOP has enough members in Congress to block impeachment? 

Forgive me if I sound confused. I'm trying to figure out just who's running this Big Top Circus of Skulduggery that you're talking about. And who is the target. And what the goal of this propaganda conspiracy is. 


"There can be any number of reasons why Trump hasn't forced NSA to turn over the DNC and Podesta data, one of which could simply be that they have unsavory info on Trump or those in the admin. that could be leaked; another could be that he fears for his life if he discloses the DNC/Podesta info. It might also lead into the Seth Rich issue." 


Info more unsavory than the "grab 'em by the pussy" remark? Trump's bankruptcies? The Trump University scandal? Or, you speculate that the President of the United States is afraid of getting killed if he forces the release of what really happened to the DNC server and Podesta's emails. Or what happened to Seth Rich. 



Trump is the king of the garbage heap. He won despite (perhaps because of) all sorts of awful info about him coming out. At this point, what sort of info on Trump is going to make his supporters stop supporting him?

And perhaps you've forgotten: Trump ran on the promise of draining the swamp. Of getting rid of federal corruption, skulduggery and government powers that did illegal things and didn't answer to the people. Why wouldn't he just out the NSA for hiding the truth, especially when it would vindicate his claims that he had nothing to do with the Russians during  the campaign and that the Russians didn't hack the DNC server? And if someone sympathetic to the Democratic party or HRC had Seth Rich killed and the NSA somehow had info on that, don't you think Trump would want that made public? And if Trump actually feared for his life from an NSA or CIA hit, don't you think that he'd have that exposed and stopped? It'd be a yuuuge PR win for him: "Trump's so dangerous to Washington fat cats that they tried to have him snuffed, but The Donald beat them!"  

Also: do you seriously think that a federal agency would have the president killed because it feared he was going to shed some sunlight on their activities?

LowPhreak, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but your claims remind me of a large dog running under a big dropcloth in the dark. There's a lot of movement and rustling and confusion in the middle of night, but it doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Your posts have bits that read like something from The Firesign Theater.

It may simply be that the NSA does have a clear understanding of what happened to the DNC servers and Podesta's emails but that it is not going to provide technical proof backing its conclusions because it doesn't want to expose its abilities or sources. Whether their classified knowledge has anything to do with Trump's campaign, I have no idea. Frankly, if the NSA had info linking Trump's campaign to a Russian project to hack into the DNC, I think the agency would have come out with it. 

As for Don Trump jr  and his emails hoping to get incriminating info on HRC from the Russians, I think Trump jr is an idiot who didn't understand relevant federal law. You could say the same about Kushner and many others involved in the Trump campaign and administration. It may be that many of the bad deeds (hell, even crimes) that come to light from the various investigations are just instances of stupidity, willingness to play dirty and a willful ignorance of the law. 
Finally: 

"There were only 4 out of 17 agencies that reluctantly agreed with what is actually a NSA leak, and that based on "best conclusions", not verifiable evidence, and after a charade was presented that ALL agencies agreed, ("widespread consensus") when they actually did not. "

Do you have a link or links to back the claims you make here?

 LowPhreak wrote: 
Your timing is impeccable.  I do agree with your assessment of Trump farther below.  I knew he was no choir boy.  I knew he was involved with the Mafia, but how do you not use massive amounts of concrete and not get involved with Mafia ?  That did not deter me in making my choice out of the binary one offered.   I do know the worlds of construction and the Mafia, independently for different reasons.  I was at one time a Teamster during the era of the Danny Green bombings here in Cleveland.  I will admit that I actually have some respect for the Mafia, based upon what I know.  

I do know that Trump can direct the FBI to investigate anything he wants and am puzzled as to why he hasn't yet, given all that there is.  But we have just installed a new director, whom I know very little about.  So I have to wait and see on that before I conclude that Trump would hang himself if he directed more far reaching investigations.  That and I am convinced that the FBI has been at the very least politicized and no longer capable of conducting impartial investigations of political figures.

Thanks for your input and now back to Russia, Russia, Russia, already in progress ...

 kcar wrote: 
You can look into other NSA whistleblowers such as Thomas Drake, J. Kirk Weibe, Ed Loomis, (all former high ranking NSA personnel) and former Congressional aide in charge of NSA oversight, Diane Roark. All of them have said similar to what Binney has, and all of them have appeared with him in various interviews and discussions and corroborate his info on NSA. Easy to find on YouTube and elsewhere, even PBS did a Frontline episode a few years ago with Weibe and Drake, et al. If you're going to argue with the likes of a Bill Binney, I suggest you pack a big lunch. You'll need it.

If you don't think the public is being snowed, as you put it, by a propaganda campaign after the info I've given and is easily searched elsewhere, then I doubt anything would convince you. There can be any number of reasons why Trump hasn't forced NSA to turn over the DNC and Podesta data, one of which could simply be that they have unsavory info on Trump or those in the admin. that could be leaked; another could be that he fears for his life if he discloses the DNC/Podesta info. It might also lead into the Seth Rich issue.

The NSA knows everything that goes in and out of this country re communications, even though as Binney and the others have said it is illegal and unconstitutional. They certainly have the goods on the Dems and anything Trump has done in the past several years.

There's also more here and here. 

All of which makes your assumptions about the intel agencies wishful thinking at best. There were only 4 out of 17 agencies that reluctantly agreed with what is actually a NSA leak, and that based on "best conclusions", not verifiable evidence, and after a charade was presented that ALL agencies agreed, ("widespread consensus") when they actually did not.

I also have no confidence in Bob Mueller. My problem with Mueller is that after Comey, I don't trust any FBI director at this time (unless he/she were a proven non-partisan, unimpeachable, independent law enforcement officer), especially one that was appointed by GW Bush and the Neo-Cons only a week before 9/11 and never conducted a proper crime scene investigation on it. Just for starters, Mueller allowed the physical evidence of a very important crime scene to be destroyed, such as all of the steel and debris to be carted away immediately and shipped to Asia for melting down, among other egregious actions (or non-actions). That is not a conspiracy "theory", it is a fact.

By that alone Mueller is already disqualified. No, I won't get into the whole 9/11 can of worms but that is one example of why Mueller cannot be trusted here. He's just the guy you want to get a desired result, as he proved 15 years ago.

 LowPhreak wrote: 

I remember your references to Binney and his claims about the NSA's total access to the DNC's servers and Podesta's emails. I'm not disputing his claim (IIRC I watched a video on YouTube of Binney making that claim, and another of a FOX News show making a passing reference to Binney's claim), but I don't recall hearing or seeing anyone else backing Binney up. 


"However, many are unaware that Trump as President has the power to order any information declassified, and to share it with whoever he wants. So Trump can order the declassification of all information which the NSA has on the Democratic party (DNC and Podesta) emails."



Given that the investigations into Russia's involvement in our election have

1. bogged the Trump administration down,

2. opened public discussion about charges related to obstruction of justice and conspiracy pointed at Don and Don, jr., and

3. eroded public trust in Trump,

it's clearly in the best interests of an innocent Donald Trump to declassify evidence of hacking into the DNC's servers. And yet Trump has made no such move or explained why he hasn't. That doesn't automatically make him guilty of anything, but I don't think Americans are being snowed by an "MSM propaganda campaign."

Our intelligence agencies concluded that the Russian government, all the way up to Putin, was intent on disrupting our election. Given your intelligence background, perhaps you paid closer attention to opinions within the intelligence community that dissented from that conclusion. I don't recall hearing about significant disagreements. IIRC there was widespread consensus on the matter. There was no Dick Cheney or Doug Feith pushing the NSA or other agencies towards a desired conclusion. 

That opinion from our intelligence community about the intentions and actions of the Russian government came forth well before the more recent story of Don, jr. meeting with a Russian lawyer promising damaging information about HRC. It's pretty clear to me that the emails released by Trump, jr. are only the beginning of a story about Russian tampering and Trump-campaign collusion. There may be nothing more to that story, but let's wait and see: Bob Mueller's investigation has just begun, and people in Trump's administration leak information like a colander. I see that emailed reachout to Don jr. as just as another way for the Russian government to disrupt our election. 

1. Given Trump's failure to unmuzzle the NSA in such fashion as to allow the agency to show who/what hacked the DNC servers,

2. Trump's rash attempts to get Comey's investigation of Mike Flynn's possible involvement with Russian operatives quashed,

3. the emails pointing to Trump jr's attempt to collude with Russians,

4. and the long string of lies from Kushner, Trump, Trump jr et al. about communications with Russians,

I very much doubt that this whole matter is much ado about nothing. 

 islander wrote: 
There is certainly more than one side to it, but both sides are in it for U.S. world hegemony. One is the Clinton/Dem Party/Neo-Liberals with their friends in the NSA and other intel agencies, who want to make Russia a vassal state, as they've done to so many others. The other is the Trump gang and GOP/Neo-Cons who see China as the main impediment first.

 LowPhreak wrote: 
Reading all this, it's like you think there are more than two sides to the issue(s). 

< adds LowPhreak to the list of people I could have a beer with >

 VV wrote: 
I'll give a couple of examples of former intel people that probably know a helluva lot more about this than anyone on RP forums. I say this as a former U.S. Army Intel Analyst myself, which I left in 1981. (BTW, spare me the mindless "thank you for your service" jingoism. It doesn't mean a thing in this day of American rogue state antics and war crimes that the people regurgitating such faux-patriotism have ignored.)

You want to "support our troops"? Number One: get them to hell out of the Middle East conflicts. 16 years is quite enough. Next, rehire the 50,000 personnel that the VA is short on, and fund it properly — take it out of the Pentagon budget, and stop giving money to Lockheed-Martin, Raytheon, and KBR, et al. Only then will those slogans mean a goddamned thing.

First, I'd like to agree with what Craig Murray the former Brit intel officer and ambassador said,

"I do not support Donald Trump. I do support truth. There is much about Trump that I dislike intensely. Neither do I support the neo-liberal political establishment in the USA. The latter’s control of the mainstream media, and cunning manipulation of identity politics, seeks to portray the neo-liberal establishment as the heroes of decent values against Trump. Sadly, the idea that the neo-liberal establishment embodies decent values is completely untrue."

...that that is also my position. Trump is a disgusting embarrassment to the U.S. and IMO is only in this for his and his family's enrichment and aggrandizement. He's a huckster from NY that has been in bed with the Mafia for decades, and has a long record of ne'er do well there (which itself begs the question of why didn't the MSM 'swiftboat' him on that during the campaign?). The Clintons and establishment Democrats are no better, both are corrupt to the core. BOTH parties are merely two sides of the same oligarchy, and this whole kerfluffle is but an internecine fight between them for ultimate control of the direction of U.S. hegemony.

The intel agencies have not publicly shared any credible and verifiable evidence one way or the other about Russian hacking of the Democratic email. That is a fact.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2017/07/russiagate-stink-without-secret.html

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/11/us-insiders-not-russia-leaked-clinton-emails.html

There are appropriate links in both of those articles. However, many are unaware that Trump as President has the power to order any information declassified, and to share it with whoever he wants. So Trump can order the declassification of all information which the NSA has on the Democratic party (DNC and Podesta) emails. The man who created the NSA’s global electronic data-gathering system, William Binney, told Washington’s Blog that if the DNC and Podesta were hacked, the NSA would already have the data in their files proving who did it.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/12/tell-russia-hacked-election.html

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/12/creator-nsas-global-surveillance-system-calls-b-s-russian-hacking-report.html

Therefore, if Trump is innocent on this issue, his best chance at avoiding impeachment is order the NSA to declassify its data on the “hacking” of the DNC’s servers and Podesta emails. His enemies would be much better off pursuing the Qatar issue as I mentioned a couple of pages ago, as I certainly would if I were in a position to make it front and center.

What's upsetting is that otherwise sensible people are buying this whole MSM propaganda campaign - without any critical thinking or due investigation - while nearly ignoring other more important problems facing the country.

 oldviolin wrote: 
I just tuned in and the raft said OV had posted to this thread. I thought, "This I gotta see." You did not disappoint. 

 oldviolin wrote: 
< like >

 Prodigal_SOB wrote: 
In '75 I was sent to Ft.Ord California to among other things set for deployment to Viet Nam, but being that the withdrawal had already begun I served my time there wilting in limbo and chasing up and down Highway 1 on my motorcycle looking for the next adventure. At the end of '76 I and my motorcycle were shipped off to Germany to fight the cold war. Good thing I had hot blood; or was it? I did manage to ride that motorcycle down a section of the ancient Roman road through a field of tall grass, refreshing in verdant youth. What does this have to do with Trump? Not a damned thing. What is lowly will be lofted...that which sinks to remain there...war and all the ancient pavement man has constructed to arrive...

 aflanigan wrote: 

  Back in the good old cold war days when people would tell me that we and the Russians each had enough bombs to blow up the entire planet twelve times over I would always tell them "Yes, but look at who we're putting in charge of it."   I figured that around a quarter of us were going to survive.  After working for DoD for more than twenty years I raised it to at least a third.  It's always been a very comforting thought.