So far Trump's European trip has been pretty underwhelming. Talking up big at the NATO conference but not putting any teeth into his arguments. Embarrassing May then back-tracking wildly, accusing Germany of being dependent on Russian gas reserves (good point, btw - the logical conclusion being to find alternatives, which would please Putin inordinately), and now off to see Putin in Helsinki. All in all a lot of wind, very confused and no clear line - maybe he really is just doing this gig for the fun of it and has no program whatsoever. 

 kcar wrote: 
Excellent post kcar

Kurtster, I am getting really tired of this me against the rest drivel.   The greatest thing about this place is the diversity of opinions here and the reasoned discussions behind them. We have a huge spectrum of different political philosophies and on the whole a pretty high level of discourse. But your whining about everyone vilifying you because they are following some lame party line set decades ago by a party that most of the people here don't even support does us as a wider group a disservice. If you feel painted into a corner it's because you put yourself there.  

Vladimir Putin is holding Trump hostage...somehow. 



Trump persists in his push for friendly ties with Putin despite Russia indictments

Trump asked Russians to get Clinton emails. They immediately started trying.

After being told of Russia indictments, Trump still aspired to be friends with Putin

 kurtster wrote: 
Wow. You are so lost. Trump is exploiting the economic and social anxiety in this country for his own benefit. He is doing NOTHING to bring Americans together. He is constantly saying vicious, unpleasant, divisive things. Trump is all about Trump and the glorification of Trump. If you think Trump gives a damn about people like you as anyone but a captive audience that should adore him, you are being badly suckered. 

" But the accusations of racism, xenophobia, fill in the blank continue to this day.  The left has been pounding its opposition incessantly ever since Jimmy Carter came out on a Today Show interview and stated that the biggest reason anyone would disagree with Obama on anything was because they were racist. And it has continued for the following 8 years.  And now we are still the same type of person if we support Trump.  "

That is a gross and simplistic exaggeration. "The left" is a not a monolithic hive-mind of individuals all believing the same thing. There is a wide spectrum of beliefs amongst left-leaning Americans on just about every issue. Diversity of opinion is one of the strengths and weaknesses of the Democratic party. And although the GOP did help get major civil rights legislation passed in the 60s, that was because in part the GOP was a different party back then, as we have discussed. The GOP since Reagan has been hostile to civil rights issues (and not just issues focused primarily on African-Americans). With your sweeping generalizations about "the left", you're exhibiting the same kind of intolerance that you accuse "the left" of. 


BTW: Jimmy Carter DID NOT say what you claimed he said. YOU POSTED A 29-second clip and you couldn't paraphrase it accurately. Here is what Carter said during the clip:  "An overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man...And I think that it's bubbled up to the surface because of a belief among many white people, not just in the South but around the country, that African-Americans are not qualified to lead this great country."   


YOU CLAIMED that Carter said something to the effect of "the biggest reason anyone would disagree with Obama on anything was because they were racist." Not even close to the same thing. Carter is one person in the Democratic party. He is not its spokesman or even a major thought leader for it. Again, there is a wide spectrum of beliefs in the party. 


But let me point you to this Politico.com excerpt: 


Millions of ordinary white citizens and right-wing critics didn’t cotton to our first black president’s chutzpah in capturing the highest office in the land—and they have been unleashing venom ever since. Signs at early protests spoke volumes: “Obama’s Plan: White Slavery” and “The American Taxpayers Are the Jews for Obama’s Ovens.” Some played on racist stereotypes: “Obama: What You Talkin’ About, Willis? Spend My Money.” Others tagged him “Traitor to the Constitution” and “Sambo,” or played on his ancestral homeland: “Ken-ya Trust Obama?”


This last message was, of course, a hallmark of the birthers, who formalized racist attacks into a movement by claiming that Obama, despite his Hawaiian birth certificate, was born in Kenya—or that he was really a citizen of Indonesia, or that he had dual British and American citizenship at birth. The sick attempt to paint Obama as un-American—a closet socialist, a secret Muslim and a hater of democracy, no less—didn’t stop there, echoing over the years in the feverish rantings of figures like Dinesh D’Souza, who claimed Obama was motivated by “an inherited rage” against American wealth and power from his anti-colonialist Kenyan father. On TV, Glenn Beck asserted that Obama had “a deep-seated hatred for white people,” while Rush Limbaugh spewed a steady stream of invective on his radio show, from playing a songdubbed “Barack the Magic Negro” to claiming that Obama wanted Americans to get Ebola as payback for slavery. The most infamous birther, Donald Trump, questioned, without basis, not just Obama’s birth certificate, but his college transcript and whether he had truly deserved a spot at Harvard Law School.


Help me out here, Kurt: should we view the GOP as hostile to African-Americans when we read the fact-free and hostile views of one conservative figure? What about two pundits? What about three? I vigorously disagree that "the left" sees all Republicans as racist, but you have to admit that major conservative voices have said racist things. 

"The democratic party has made it perfectly clear that they wish people like me would just die and go away.  They don't even want to try and win us over.  We are not worthy of the air we breathe. That is the message sent."

And yet the Democratic party had significant support amongst people like you in the 2008 and 2012 elections. The Democratic party has tried to make health care affordable for people like you, has tried to expand economic opportunities for people like you, has fought to promote a progressive income tax schedule for people like you. Ohio was a huge battleground state in the last election, and it's been heavily contested in many past elections. I assure that OH and places like it still matter very much to the Democratic party, not just for its own success but because places like OH are areas where the party can show that it wants government to work for the average person, and not just the very rich.  


Kurt, please do tell us what the Republican party has done for people like you. Are you making $670,000 or more? 'Cause those folks are getting 80%+ of the benefits from Trump's tax cut. You tell us that you're at or near the poverty line: did the GOP try to stabilize the ACA so that it could help folks at your income level or did they try to gut it? Trump is still trying to destroy the ACA through denial of payments to insurance compensation corridors to insurance providers who had to pay out larger than expected amounts for sicker customers. He's also cut payments to groups trying to inform people about health insurance options. 

OH, AND HEY: how's Trump big infrastructure plan coming along? The one that was going to help people and regions who weren't enjoying significant economic recovery?

What about those tariffs, Kurt? Maybe you've not been keeping up with that issue, but the tariffs are going to cost Americans more jobs than they create, and likely raise consumer prices on some products. 

"Obama did nothing to calms things done, just further exploit Carter's pronouncement and play martyr and sore winner."


What a tired load of horsesh**. Show me where Obama claimed that opposition to him was primarily based on racism. Go read Obama's "More Perfect Union Speech" and tell me that he played martyr or felt sorry for himself because of racism in America. 


Here is a transcript of his speech:   https://constitutioncenter.org/amoreperfectunion/
Here is a summary of the speech:    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union_(speech)#Speech



"Those who blame Trump for all the polarizing have long forgotten Carter's words that set this current round into motion, 10 years ago.  Trump is what you get after someone like Obama."

Hostility from both political parties and their voters existed long before Carter. Trump doesn't have to be polarizing. He's not compensating for excessive PC or pro-black statements and policies from Obama. He is a demagogue whose power comes from whipping up hatred, anger and intolerance. He is all about naming enemies for his base and whipping up anger towards those groups—immigrants, "the elites", minorities, groups supporting economic and social justice. That's how Trump got into power and that's how he'll try to stay in power. Trump is a vicious, divisive bigot. 


Does that make you and other Trump supporters bigots? No, but many people who don't support Trump—Republicans as well as Democrats—don't understand your support for a man who clearly does not have your interests at heart. 

 aflanigan wrote: 
So I call people here demeaning things all the time is what you're saying.  

IIRC, I go out of my way to avoid anything personal in my comments.  I'm my response to RD, I only said I don't believe you and why.

Twelve GRU officers indicted by the justice department, and Donnie is meeting with Putin in a day or two. This is fine.

 kurtster wrote: 
Respect and reciprocity go hand in hand. Sorry you can't seem to see that.

 black321 wrote: 
It appears the title of that YouTube video is somewhat deceptive, but that happens often with YouTube videos.  Anyhow, Carter also said this in an interview last fall:

"...I wondered how the starchy Carter, who put out a White House edict that nobody could fly first class, felt about the louche Trump White House, where conflict of interest has been replaced by confluence of interest.

'I think the media have been harder on Trump than any other president certainly that I’ve known about,' Carter replied. 'I think they feel free to claim that Trump is mentally deranged and everything else without hesitation.'...

...Carter is also not as bothered as some by Trump’s Putin bromance. 'At the Carter Center,” he said, “we deal with Putin and the Russians quite frequently concerning Syria.'”...

 R_P wrote:



 

 kurtster wrote:

 rtster wrote: 
again, he didnt say all opponents, just the intense demonstrations...pointing to the demonstrations against Obama, with the obvious racist undertones.   

 black321 wrote: 
I was going to put this with my post but decided not to.  But glad I did not close the window.  I can find more such by Carter.  It is not the only time he has said this.

 aflanigan wrote: 
No, because few have ever believed me.  It has been going on for me here for 10 years.  Just treating him as I have been treated.

 kurtster wrote: 
So you expect everyone to accept your denials at face value regarding hating Obama, yet are unwilling to extend the same courtesy regarding people who dislike Trump's policies.

See a double standard here?

 kurtster wrote: 
Kurt, you might have had a point, but then went off to Mars with Carter comments.  Carter was referring to a specific group of radical demonstrators, not any political opponent of Obama.

"When a radical fringe element of demonstrators and others begin to attack the president of the United States as an animal or as a reincarnation of Adolf Hitler or when they wave signs in the air that said we should have buried Obama with Kennedy, those kinds of things are beyond the bounds," the Democrat who served from 1977-1981 told students at Emory University.

"I think people who are guilty of that kind of personal attack against Obama have been influenced to a major degree by a belief that he should not be president because he happens to be African American.

"It's a racist attitude, and my hope is and my expectation is that in the future both Democratic leaders and Republican leaders will take the initiative in condemning that kind of unprecedented attack on the president of the United States," Carter said.

 

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
I do not believe you.  Because of the way you condemn his supporters the same as you condemn him.

Most here have accused me of hating Obama since day one, which I have steadfastly denied.  I hate no one.  I had problems with his policies and tried to stick to just that.  But the accusations of racism, xenophobia, fill in the blank continue to this day.  The left has been pounding its opposition incessantly ever since Jimmy Carter came out on a Today Show interview and stated that the biggest reason anyone would disagree with Obama on anything was because they were racist. And it has continued for the following 8 years.  And now we are still the same type of person if we support Trump.  

And people still wonder why anyone supports Trump.  The democratic party has made it perfectly clear that they wish people like me would just die and go away.  They don't even want to try and win us over.  We are not worthy of the air we breathe. That is the message sent.  Big tent my ass.  Inclusion my ass.  And now we hate children, too.

Those who blame Trump for all the polarizing have long forgotten Carter's words that set this current round into motion, 10 years ago.  Trump is what you get after someone like Obama.  Obama did nothing to calms things done, just further exploit Carter's pronouncement and play martyr and sore winner.

And just because, the democrats just really floored me yesterday when they gave Agent Strzok a huge ovation, wished him hugs, kisses and even a Purple Heart for his bravery during his testimony, ignoring all the things said in his texts, because they agree with Strzok and see him as their hero and cultural warrior.  And I Strzok mentioned here earlier without any disagreement with the things he said, just how it was understandable given the circumstances.
I let this sit for a long time before hitting submit.  Yep, I mean every word of it.

 black321 wrote: 
My suggestion? Take a page out of youth soccer and have Obama award him a ”Presidential Participation” trophy at the end of his term. He’ll be so tickled he will probably build a custom case to display it.