islander wrote: 
The eroding faith in institutions and institutional actors has been apparent — and terribly troubling, to me — for several years. It pre-dates Trump, but he has constantly poured gas on that fire (Fake News!; Witch Hunt! etc).  This, perhaps more than anything else, is that which.he tapped into in his campaign. Unfortunately, my fear is that his legacy will be leaving a nation unmoored from its democratic foundations.  Foundering.  

The questions become:  In whom or what do we believe?  What now are our values?     

 Steely_D wrote: 
Don't forget those nice Nazis too, now.

 islander wrote: 
Exactly the right view here. Listen to FOX, but no other news. The FBI is corrupt. The Russian and North Koreans? Pretty good people, as opposed to those NATO jerks.

Is this what the Republicans wanted?

Thanks Donnie!

 VV wrote: 
I agree with you. But I think we are in a minority. I bet that most on either side will not support any finding that is contrary to their core beliefs.  We are in a precarious place. If we can't have faith in our institutions, then what is our incentive for participating in the republic?  If we lose faith in the republic, how do we divide up the resources and move on to the next thing?  Is it possible to have a societal divorce without a war? How close are we?

 islander wrote: 
of course

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Maybe we should check into the people who are appointing the special counsels?

 steeler wrote: 
The bottom line... as you correctly pointed out... will be that there will be people who will invalidate any negative result coming from Mueller's efforts as having been tainted. 
 
They want to pretend that they will be somewhat objective... but ultimately they won't accept any significant negative results... and they just don't want to be called out on it.
 
No need to fool ourselves otherwise.

FYI, if they find nothing of significance on Trump... then I'm willing to believe that there was nothing to find. I believe that Mueller is heading up a thorough, proper investigation and I'm willing to abide by whatever he finds.
 

 islander wrote: 
We'll need another to investigate that one...

 steeler wrote:
 

I call for a special counsel to investigate the special counsel investigating the special counsel.   It really is the only way we will ever have any faith in the result.

 kurtster wrote: 
Uh-huh.  This is an absurd proposal.  A special counsel to investigate the investigators, which, I presume, means anyone in the FBI or DOJ or maybe even in the judiciary who played any role in the investigation (writ large), and anyone on Special Counsel Mueller's team. Essentially, this is a proposal to review all steps taken and see if this new Special Counsel would come to different conclusions or make different decisions than those who have made them or, in the case of the present Special Counsel, did or will make them. And, of course, it presupposes that the Mueller investigation is fatally tainted.  No need to wait until the findings are issued. 
 
Take, for example, first and foremost, the complaint about the FISA warrant allegedly having been improperly obtained because of improper reliance on the Steele dossier.  I assume this would be some kind of fruit-of-the-poisonous tree type argument, which Trump supporters are hoping could somehow invalidate the entire investigation.  Hint:  It would not. 

The FISA warrant was obtained in October of 2016.  Special Counsel Mueller was appointed in May 2017.

This would have to be one rather large conspiracy involving many actors — all of them tainted, including Mueller himself.

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Yeah, we just got our first notice of price increases due to tariffs.  Here's a rich bit of irony: the only boat we have regularly using the parts that are being tariffed are being sold to the coast guard. This means that the only major customer we have using Chinese parts is ultimately the U.S. Government. We will pass this cost along (as allowed in the contract) and the government will pay an increased price due to their own actions. Ultimately the money will come from the U.S. taxpayer.

The vast majority of our products use parts made in mexico, so no tariffs (yet). But soon I'll probably have to receive them by catapult. 

Thanks Donnie!

 Steely_D wrote:
 
Some might say that if or when the unlimited resources of the  government itself is used by the party in power to gain an advantage over an opposition party, that is crossing a line.  Much different from a still private citizen doing all they can within the law on their own to find an edge.   Using agencies that by charter are not allowed to investigate US citizens, just foreign nationals.  Or say like using the IRS to silence political opposition by rendering their  organizations dysfunctional or  unable to operate at all, ala the Tea Party ...

 kurtster wrote: 
Is it not obvious how different it is when our/your Justice Department investigates someone who might become President - versus a Presidential candidate's son meeting with a foreign government in order to "get dirt" a candidate?

Opinion: How a senior DOJ official helped Dem researchers on Trump-Russia case

By John Solomon
Opinion Contributor

Hundreds of pages of previously unreported emails and memos provide the clearest evidence yet that a research firm, hired by Hillary Clinton’s campaign and the Democratic National Committee (DNC) to find dirt on and defeat Donald Trump, worked early and often with the FBI, a Department of Justice (DOJ) official and the intelligence community during the 2016 presidential election and the early days of Trump's presidency.

Fusion GPS's work and its involvement with several FBI officials have been well reported.

But a close review of these new documents shows just how closely Associate Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr, who reported to Obama-era Deputy AG Sally Yates, maintained contact with Fusion — and, in particular, its primary source, former British spy Christopher Steele — before, during and after the election.

Yates was fired by President Trump over an unrelated political dispute. Ohr was demoted recently.

Ohr’s own notes, emails and text messages show he communicated extensively with Steele and with Fusion GPS founder Glenn Simpson. Those documents have been turned over in recent weeks to investigative bodies in Congress and the DOJ, but not reviewed outside the investigative ranks until now.
...

Steele's FBI relationship had been terminated about three months earlier. The bureau concluded on Nov. 1, 2016, that he leaked information to the news media and was “not suitable for use” as a confidential source, memos show.

The FBI specifically instructed Steele that he could no longer “operate to obtain any intelligence whatsoever on behalf of the FBI,” those memos show.

Yet, Steele asked Ohr in the Jan. 31 text exchange if he could continue to help feed information to the FBI: “Just want to check you are OK, still in the situ and able to help locally as discussed, along with your Bureau colleagues.”

“I’m still here and able to help as discussed,” Ohr texted back. “I’ll let you know if that changes.”

Steele replied, “If you end up out though, I really need another (bureau?) contact point/number who is briefed. We can’t allow our guy to be forced to go back home. It would be disastrous.” Investigators are trying to determine who Steele was referring to.

FBI officials now admit they continued to receive information from Steele through Ohr, identifying more than a half-dozen times its agents interviewed Ohr in late 2016 and 2017, to learn what Steele was saying.

That continued reliance on Steele after his termination is certain to raise interest in Congress about whether the FBI broke its own rules.

But the memos also raise questions about Ohr’s and the Justice Department’s roles in the origins of building a counterintelligence case against the Republican presidential nominee, based heavily on opposition research funded by his rival's campaign, the DNC, and the DNC’s main law firm, Perkins Coie.

much more

 kurtster wrote: 


If Nunes is right in his claim, couldn't Trump declassify those surveillance warrant applications and so reveal the redacted bits? As a favor to himself? And why has it taken Devin so long to come forth with this claim of exculpatory evidence? I'm sorry but I don't have a lot of faith in Devin. He's Trump's loyal lapdog. 


That ultra-liberal Marco Rubio disagrees with your darlin' Devin: 

NUNES: FBI FAILED TO INCLUDE ‘EXCULPATORY’ EVIDENCE IN CARTER PAGE FISAS

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Devin Nunes claimed Monday that the FBI and Justice Department failed to include exculpatory evidence in surveillance warrant applications against former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.
...

Nunes also told Hannity that the committee is interested in learning more about Justice Department official Bruce Ohr’s role in the Trump-Russia investigation.

Ohr, the former associate deputy attorney general, met with Steele before and after the 2016 presidential election. The post-election meetings were held after the FBI ended its relationship with Steele because of the former British spy’s contacts with the media.

As Nunes noted, though the FBI severed ties with Steele, Ohr provided information from his 12 meetings with Steele back to the FBI. Ohr’s wife, Nellie Ohr, also worked during the campaign for Fusion GPS, the opposition research firm that hired Steele in June 2016.

“Bruce Ohr is going to become more and more important in this investigation, and I think people should pay close attention to it,” Nunes told Hannity.

The news about Ohr is very old.  Its been out for over a year now.  And been downplayed in this thread repeatedly.

Yeah, but still no good reasons for a second special counsel to investigate the investigators ...  Uh huh ...

 kcar wrote: