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Ohmsen

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Location: Valhalla
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 10:35am

Fruit flies like a banana! ~ Groucho Marx.
https://punditfromanotherplanet.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/vanilla-in-manilla.jpg


sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 10:32am

 black321 wrote:


 steeler wrote:
I saw Romnet’s speech from the floor live (happenstance) and watched it again later. I also have read it a few times. If he was faking it, he is a damn good actor or charlatan, or both. His reasoning made sense to me. His emotions seemed real. I was moved (and most of the time I am a card-carrying cynic). Now he did reference the possibility of a “rebuke” of history, so it would seem he was contemplating how his vote would be viewed through that lens. Perhaps securing his place in history was motivating him, but that would be an odd criticism in this context. In the shorter term, we know this vote is going to bring a torrential shitstorm down upon him. Difficult for me to believe he is willing to subject himself to that just to get back at Trump in a personal feud. I see him here as being more patriotic than petty.
 

“In politics, sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.” – Groucho Marx.
  {#Lol}

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 10:11am



 steeler wrote:
I saw Romnet’s speech from the floor live (happenstance) and watched it again later. I also have read it a few times. If he was faking it, he is a damn good actor or charlatan, or both. His reasoning made sense to me. His emotions seemed real. I was moved (and most of the time I am a card-carrying cynic). Now he did reference the possibility of a “rebuke” of history, so it would seem he was contemplating how his vote would be viewed through that lens. Perhaps securing his place in history was motivating him, but that would be an odd criticism in this context. In the shorter term, we know this vote is going to bring a torrential shitstorm down upon him. Difficult for me to believe he is willing to subject himself to that just to get back at Trump in a personal feud. I see him here as being more patriotic than petty.
 

“In politics, sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.” – Groucho Marx.


rgio

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Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 9:56am



 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  
 
I'll second that.  

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 9:54am

 steeler wrote:
I saw Romnet’s speech from the floor live (happenstance) and watched it again later. I also have read it a few times. If he was faking it, he is a damn good actor or charlatan, or both. His reasoning made sense to me. His emotions seemed real. I was moved (and most of the time I am a card-carrying cynic). Now he did reference the possibility of a “rebuke” of history, so it would seem he was contemplating how his vote would be viewed through that lens. Perhaps securing his place in history was motivating him, but that would be an odd criticism in this context. In the shorter term, we know this vote is going to bring a torrential shitstorm down upon him. Difficult for me to believe he is willing to subject himself to that just to get back at Trump in a personal feud. I see him here as being more patriotic than petty.
 
Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 9:29am

I saw Romnet’s speech from the floor live (happenstance) and watched it again later. I also have read it a few times. If he was faking it, he is a damn good actor or charlatan, or both. His reasoning made sense to me. His emotions seemed real. I was moved (and most of the time I am a card-carrying cynic). Now he did reference the possibility of a “rebuke” of history, so it would seem he was contemplating how his vote would be viewed through that lens. Perhaps securing his place in history was motivating him, but that would be an odd criticism in this context. In the shorter term, we know this vote is going to bring a torrential shitstorm down upon him. Difficult for me to believe he is willing to subject himself to that just to get back at Trump in a personal feud. I see him here as being more patriotic than petty.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 7:20am



 black321 wrote:


 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney,.... Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
 

NB Romney was Gov. of some state on the eastern seaboard, but now serves Utah.
 
it was early, lack of caffeine.  

 

:-) Thanks for the reminder... *shuffles off to the kitchen to finish the pot and wait for the carpool*
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
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Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 7:18am



 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney,.... Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
 

NB Romney was Gov. of some state on the eastern seaboard, but now serves Utah.
 
it was early, lack of caffeine.  

ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
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Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 7:15am



 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney,.... Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
 

NB Romney was Gov. of some state on the eastern seaboard, but now serves Utah.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
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Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:40am

RE. Islander  , the first part on partisanship...right, that's the point. So being an opinion/partisan, it should pass some litmus test to proceed. Is there a case from this one incident to get the GOP and the public in general behind impeachment?  Can you take his prior behavior into consideration? With that said, and considering as we know from the start, the GOP were not likely to agree, was going through the process anyway the right thing? And if it was, did the democrats do it correctly, or convincingly? 

As an aside, I think the defense that this should be left to the voters is a bit week...harks back to  the Mcconnell / Garland trick.
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
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Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:28am

 rgio wrote:


 

I was never a huge fan of Romney, but you can't possibly watch his speech yesterday and believe he didn't struggle with the decision.  He was nervous.  He was emotional.   It wasn't political, it was personal.  He mentioned his kids and their children as part of his decision process.  He knows how history will explain these times... 
 
Well you certainly got that point right.{#Lol}
islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:26am



 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney, rather than his oath to God or his conscience, shouldnt have been his oath to the constitution that guided him in his decision?  That's what Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
Not being an expert on the subject myself, but I always questioned the constitutional basis  for the impeachment. Though like most legal matters, it could be argued one way or the other...meaning, ultimately it was a partisan process.

 

And there is the issue - it's always opinion, so it will always be partisan. Even the 'expert' interpretations of the constitution will always just be interpretations. The constitution itself was a compromise among men, so it didn't represent anyone's true full opinion. 

When this all got started, I read this from here: https://www.constitution.org/cmt/high_crimes.htm



The question of impeachment turns on the meaning of the phrase in the Constitution at Art. II Sec. 4, "Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors". I have carefully researched the origin of the phrase "high crimes and misdemeanors" and its meaning to the Framers, and found that the key to understanding it is the word "high". It does not mean "more serious". It refers to those punishable offenses that only apply to high persons, that is, to public officials, those who, because of their official status, are under special obligations that ordinary persons are not under, and which could not be meaningfully applied or justly punished if committed by ordinary persons.

Under the English common law tradition, crimes were defined through a legacy of court proceedings and decisions that punished offenses not because they were prohibited by statutes, but because they offended the sense of justice of the people and the court. Whether an offense could qualify as punishable depended largely on the obligations of the offender, and the obligations of a person holding a high position meant that some actions, or inactions, could be punishable if he did them, even though they would not be if done by an ordinary person.

Offenses of this kind survive today in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It recognizes as punishable offenses such things as perjury of oath, refusal to obey orders, abuse of authority, dereliction of duty, failure to supervise, moral turpitude, and conduct unbecoming. These would not be offenses if committed by a civilian with no official position, but they are offenses which bear on the subject's fitness for the duties he holds, which he is bound by oath or affirmation to perform.


That all rings pretty true to me. And under any number of standards listed here, I see much of trump's behaviors in this and other incidents to be impeachable.

At a base level, his focus exclusively on his base, and his active intentional attempts to 'trigger' or harm his opponents is pretty drastically different and worse than other presidents.  Regardless of policy disagreements I think most other presidents have sincerely wanted to help the country as a whole. I don't get that impression from this guy, and that makes him unfit.  I don't think it's impeachable by itself,  but the emotions that got him there and the unwillingness to check him for actions that do seem to be impeachable and is definitely worthy of rebuke and restraint worry me. Our biggest threats are still outside, but we have opened the door and done much of their work for them. 
rgio

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Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:18am



 Proclivities wrote:
Yes, I usually get a little uneasy when someone say "God told them" to do something instead of saying "my conscience" or something.  Whatever...
 
So now Republicans are attacking one of the more religious guys on their team?  As a recovering Republican and Catholic, I'm still amazed at the fluidity shown by the "religious" right.  People defending Trump willingly mention Romney and Trump in the same sentence with religion?  Welcome to Bizzaro world.

I was never a huge fan of Romney, but you can't possibly watch his speech yesterday and believe he didn't struggle with the decision.  He was nervous.  He was emotional.   It wasn't political, it was personal.  He mentioned his kids and their children as part of his decision process.  He knows how history will explain these times... 
Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:16am



 steeler wrote:

 
Romney said he voted his conscience.

 
Yes, it wasn't just a "God told me" statement he made.  I meant that those sort of statements are what makes me uneasy, not his statement specifically.

black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:16am



 steeler wrote:


 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney, rather than his oath to God or his conscience, shouldnt have been his oath to the constitution that guided him in his decision?  That's what Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
Not being an expert on the subject myself, but I always questioned the constitutional basis  for the impeachment. Though like most legal matters, it could be argued one way or the other...meaning, ultimately it was a partisan process.
 
This is the oath:


I solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be,) that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of , now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: so help me God.

And, again, this is what Romney said in his statement:

But my promise before God to apply impartial justice required that I put my personal feelings and biases aside. Were I to ignore the evidence that has been presented, and disregard what I believe my oath and the Constitution demands of me for the sake of a partisan end, it would, I fear, expose my character to history’s rebuke and the censure of my own conscience.
 
got it. sorry, i didnt do my homework.

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:08am



 black321 wrote:
Re. Romney, rather than his oath to God or his conscience, shouldnt have been his oath to the constitution that guided him in his decision?  That's what Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
Not being an expert on the subject myself, but I always questioned the constitutional basis  for the impeachment. Though like most legal matters, it could be argued one way or the other...meaning, ultimately it was a partisan process.
 
This is the oath:


I solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be,) that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of , now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: so help me God.

And, again, this is what Romney said in his statement:

But my promise before God to apply impartial justice required that I put my personal feelings and biases aside. Were I to ignore the evidence that has been presented, and disregard what I believe my oath and the Constitution demands of me for the sake of a partisan end, it would, I fear, expose my character to history’s rebuke and the censure of my own conscience.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 6:00am

Re. Romney, rather than his oath to God or his conscience, shouldnt have been his oath to the constitution that guided him in his decision?  That's what Collins (considered a possible yes vote), the senator to the north of him, did.
Not being an expert on the subject myself, but I always questioned the constitutional basis  for the impeachment. Though like most legal matters, it could be argued one way or the other...meaning, ultimately it was a partisan process.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 5:55am



 Proclivities wrote:


 kurtster wrote:



I'll just throw this in on my way to bed as I've been up all night ripping vinyl ...

Romney is to the repubs as Hillary is to the dems, a sore loser who will not go away and is going to do all they can to make everyone else miserable.

Add this to Romney ... anyone who says that God told them to do something specific ... well, that is something special all by itself ...

G'nite or should I say G'day ? ...

 
Yes, I usually get a little uneasy when someone say "God told them" to do something instead of saying "my conscience" or something.  Whatever...

 
Romney said he voted his conscience.

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 5:52am



 kurtster wrote:
Add this to Romney ... anyone who says that God told them to do something specific ... well, that is something special all by itself ...
 
Romney did not say that God told him to vote to convict. What he said was that he took a sworn oath,  before God, to exercise impartial justice and that he took that oath seriously. 

As a Senator-juror, I swore an oath, before God, to exercise “impartial justice.” I am a profoundly religious person. I take an oath before God as enormously consequential.

. . .

But my promise before God to apply impartial justice required that I put my personal feelings and biases aside. Were I to ignore the evidence that has been presented, and disregard what I believe my oath and the Constitution demands of me for the sake of a partisan end, it would, I fear, expose my character to history’s rebuke and the censure of my own conscience.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 5:43am



 sirdroseph wrote:


 steeler wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

No, just a reaction to all of the fawning over Romney like all of a sudden he is now a good guy.

I was looking for a picture with a dog on the roof of a station wagon and found this instead.

None you would ever really consider voting for him for anything.  Y'all would sooner cut off body parts than vote for him.
 

I see you are still painting with that same broad brush.
 

Oh please.   Sometimes the brush paints the spot perfectly.
 
Rarely. And not in this case.

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