âNatural immunityâ versus the vaccine for COVID-19 Antivaxxers have long appealed to ânatural immunityâ as being somehow inherently superior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is apparently âartificialâ. This is a trope that comes from alternative medicine concepts about purity and contamination that is now endangering us in the age of the pandemic.
The bottom line: Contrary to the narrative being pushed, for COVID-19 ânatural immunityâ is not superior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is less variable and more reliable. Even if it were, yet again, I must emphasize that vaccine-induced immunity has a key advantage over post-infection immunity. It doesnât require you to suffer through the illness and face the risks of severe disease and death from the disease to acquire it.
Dr. Vinay Prasad goes full Godwin over COVID-19 public health measures Dr. Vinay Prasad predicts the end of American democracy (just like Nazi Germany) due to the erosion of rights due to COVID-19 restrictions. It does not go well, thanks to his exaggeration and lack of understanding of history.
I would like to see a blanket ban on vaping and smoking anything while folks operate heavy machinery, in particular automobiles on public roads.
That would go a long ways to making the job of police officers a lot easier but apparently 'freedom' and 'convenience' are much more important here in Barbarian Columbia and the rest of North America. :-(
This is a close parallel to those who say "it's my right to smoke cigarettes." Which is true. Smoke all you want. But when you exhale around me, then you affect me, and then you infringe on my rights. So don't smoke around me and exacerbate my asthma.
Another example of how we have to cooperate in a society? Drink alcohol all you want. I totally don't care. But you shouldn't get behind the wheel of an automobile, because then you endanger others around you.
So avoid this vaccine (although, presumably, you've gotten all the others needed for school) all you want because you're "uncomfortable." Your choice.
But then you're not allowed to infringe on others' rights, so you must be excluded from places where you could be unwittingly spreading a respiratory disease that has killed many many many many many people.
I will proceed with a private health matter when I damn well please thank you and am quite unconcerned with your or anyone else's opinion on what I do with my body.
This is a close parallel to those who say "it's my right to smoke cigarettes." Which is true. Smoke all you want.
But when you exhale around me, then you affect me, and then you infringe on my rights. So don't smoke around me and exacerbate my asthma.
Another example of how we have to cooperate in a society? Drink alcohol all you want. I totally don't care.
But you shouldn't get behind the wheel of an automobile, because then you endanger others around you.
So avoid this vaccine (although, presumably, you've gotten all the others needed for school) all you want because you're "uncomfortable." Your choice.
But then you're not allowed to infringe on others' rights, so you must be excluded from places where you could be unwittingly spreading a respiratory disease that has killed many many many many many people.
We should just refuse hospital admission to anyone who is unvaccinated. That would make things fair and real simple.
Yes. People don't understand the real meaning of "triage."
You see it in war films, where the medic skips over the person who is certainly going to die or use up all the resources, moving on to help the ones who are more likely to survive.
The people dying in the ICUs now are the unvaccinated. They are using up resources that the vaccinated need, since we likely still have the same need to treat heart attacks, strokes, pneumonias, diabetic ketoacidosis, renal failure, etc. If those folks followed the advice of medical experts, they don't deserve to lose access to medical care because someone else listened to the advice of their Aunt Marge who just "isn't sure" what's in those vaccines, which she eats her McDonald's Quarter Pounder and drinks her strawberry shake.
In my opinion the bottom line is that if the people who are willfully not taking the vaccines don't understand the very real consequences that this can have on: themselves and others, on important health-care resources (that are in may situations over-taxed) as well as on being able to mitigate the virus to where we can all get back to some semblance of normal living... then there is no real discussion to be had.
In their mind their stance "trumps" any and all other considerations... if those considerations are even acknowledged at all. The gray area of speculative "possible future problems" of vaccination is given disproportionate weight to the current demonstrated benefits of vaccination.
Even if it's socially irresponsible, I can accept their personal choice (often based on fear and ignorance). However, what I/we don't have to accept is their spreading of misinformation and FUD.
In my opinion the bottom line is that if the people who are willfully not taking the vaccines don't understand the very real consequences that this can have on: themselves and others, on important health-care resources (that are in may situations over-taxed) as well as on being able to mitigate the virus to where we can all get back to some semblance of normal living... then there is no real discussion to be had.
In their mind their stance "trumps" any and all other considerations... if those considerations are even acknowledged at all. The gray area of speculative "possible future problems" of vaccination is given disproportionate weight to the current demonstrated benefits of vaccination.
Your persuasion skills are amazing. Remember it is you all who desperately want something from me, I want nothing from you.
This is where you're wrong. I cannot be made to care about people willfully declining the vaccine because I shouldn't have to persuade anybody to get it. I think the commentary you see here is along the lines of "really?" I mean, your position is ludicrous and you're a smart guy. It's a curiosity.
Very good and if everyone else would hold to that, I would be perfectly content.
Your persuasion skills are amazing. Remember it is you all who desperately want something from me, I want nothing from you.
This is where you're wrong. I cannot be made to care about people willfully declining the vaccine because I shouldn't have to persuade anybody to get it. I think the commentary you see here is along the lines of "really?" I mean, your position is ludicrous and you're a smart guy. It's a curiosity.
It is quite simple really once they develop an effective and safe vaccine that I feel comfortable with, then I will make the personal choice to decide if I want to put that substance in my body. It is a race between that and when the government forces my company against their will to fire me since they have already have in place an excellent plan since we work from home that in order to come back to the office we must supply vaccine proof. This works fine for me as I will wait until an effective suitable vaccine which normally takes years to develop; not one year and then take that when I am comfortable. I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides. There is no convincing me to get vaccinated, this is a non starter. I will proceed with a private health matter when I damn well please thank you and am quite unconcerned with your or anyone else's opinion on what I do with my body. If this makes me selfish and a bad person, that's just your opinion man. If I am forced with threat of unemployment to take a vaccine I am uncomfortable with, it will be with force and coercion and will never forgive all of those who have no issue with that. I am more disappointed in my fellow citizens who are comfortable with the force and coercion than the government that is imposing it. I expect this from governments, not the people. This is so upsetting to me, I really have nothing more to say about the subject. There is nothing more to be said.
The questions of being forced to do something and the actual safety of the thing are separate questions. One can oppose the former while acknowledging the latter. In this sense I am far more radical than you: I don't need an elaborate conspiracy theory (and forgive me, I can't keep track of which you've fallen for) to grant that you should have complete autonomy over your own body.
The involvement of governments is irrelevant to the question of the safety of vaccines. Utterly. It seems to figure mightily in your decision, but you should be honest with yourself hereâyou would oppose a government mandate to breathe. Me breathing (or getting vaxxed and encouraging others to do so) is not acquiescence to an evil totalitarian regime, it's my decision to maximize my time with grandchildren. If governments forbade vaccines I'd break the law to get them for myself and those I care about.
If you're basing your opposition to the current vaccines on how long it took to develop them then you need to examine your libertarian bona fides. The process has historically taken a long time because of bureaucratic foot-dragging by agencies like the FDA. In this case they demonstrated that in stark terms by showing how little of that process actually benefits the public. They streamlined the process to grant approval much quicker than usual because so many lives were being lost to their usual obstruction. We need to generalize this, not fear it as an aberration. This should have been normal all along.
If you're concerned about the technology involved you could learn about itâfrom the people who developed it and studied it for decades before it came to bear on this crisis. People, in short, who actually know what they're talking about. That information has never been more accessible. If you want to know it there is literally no excuse not to know it.
And even before you do you will have the right to determine what happens within your own body. Even an informed decision need not be a rational one, you just need to own it...and its consequences.
You and Kurt keep bringing up natural immunity as if it should change the urgency of the need to immunize people. Sure, they can acquire immunity by getting sick and risking all that comes with it. If you want a safe alternative to vaccines that absolutely is not it. A vaccine that killed anything close to 1% of the people it was given to and makes them sick for weeks even if they recover would be rejected as horribly dangerous. Encouraging that avenue would be irresponsible in the extreme. Do recovered covid patients need vaccines? Not as badly as the unvaxxed, but it will reduce risk of reinfection. You want this to be a simple yes/no? It's biology, it's complicated.
I've heard the numbers of recovered covid patients used as a reason to lift protective measures. Look at the case numbers! It isn't working. Eventually it will but a lot more people will die to get there via artisanal free-range vaccination.
Not that I should talk, but some not so effective arguments below. The way I see it...
The issue of personal freedoms is an important one, that is being (but shouldnât) brushed aside. On the other side of the argument, to the point haresfur made - the anti vax/vax hesitant groups are throwing around too many unsubstantiated questions to, or arguments against vaccinations. So, unfortunately neither side's argument is particularly effective at convincing the other side, and as Lazy noted, the meteorologist keeps reporting, âitâs raining.â mRNA vaccines arenât new, but this is the first time weâve approved them for human use. The âside effectsâ appear to be quite minimal, making the vaccine safe, at least in the short-term. I really donât know of any valid reports, or even clear speculation of possible longer-term effects. There have been mRNA human trials in the pastâ¦no reports from this data? And research shows the vaccine does not linger in the body. So, while there may be l-t âriskâ to mRNA, as far as speculating about what we still donât know, it would appear the risk from Covid significantly outweighs that of the vaccine, and there is still plenty to speculate on what we don't know about Covid (see long covid). So if you are a rational, risk averse person, get vaccinated.
Oh okay den, thanks for your input. It is quite helpful. Your persuasion skills are amazing. Remember it is you all who desperately want something from me, I want nothing from you. And with that I am done with this topic.
sirD, You clearly do not understand the mathematics of the vaccines. If you did, you would already be double-vaxxed. The cost-benefit equations are simple.
You should pay attention to folks like me who tested positive and then gladly had two sequential vaccine injections. And ask yourself why.
You should go with the authority arguments in favour of vaccines. All the experts tell you to get vaxxed. All the pretend-numerate folks in the bleacher seats like this forum are telling you to do the same thing.
Think about it. Are all these people vicious, evil ogres from the race or sectarian group you detest and distrust the most? Unlikely..... Are all these people sociopaths? Unlikely. Does corporate America want to kill off American workers? Unlikely.
As for the 'freedom' rhetoric..... yes, American citizens are absolutely free to be as 'exceptional' as they want to be. Anti-science, anti-data, anti-home grown US expertise (which usually figures amongst the best in the world).
You are 'free' to be callously indifferent to your own health and the health of the people around you.
this type of collaboration is good stuff and i like the idea of tapping into the crowd
interested to see what happens here
Having dealt with the FDA...good luck to them. It takes very very deep pockets to jump thru all those hoops and complete their process. The actual drug development is the easy part.
And once again you fail reading comprehension miserably. But I expect this from you.
As do I:
sirdroseph wrote:
I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides.
The entire post was a melange of regurgitated kurt and talk radio offal; Islander accurately pointed out the only part that rings true.
Oh okay den, thanks for your input. It is quite helpful. Your persuasion skills are amazing. Remember it is you all who desperately want something from me, I want nothing from you. And with that I am done with this topic.
And once again you fail reading comprehension miserably. But I expect this from you.
As do I:
sirdroseph wrote:
I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides.
The entire post was a melange of regurgitated kurt and talk radio offal; Islander accurately pointed out the only part that rings true.
It is quite simple really once they develop an effective and safe vaccine that I feel comfortable with, then I will make the personal choice to decide if I want to put that substance in my body. It is a race between that and when the government forces my company against their will to fire me since they have already have in place an excellent plan since we work from home that in order to come back to the office we must supply vaccine proof. This works fine for me as I will wait until an effective suitable vaccine which normally takes years to develop; not one year and then take that when I am comfortable. I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides. There is no convincing me to get vaccinated, this is a non starter. I will proceed with a private health matter when I damn well please thank you and am quite unconcerned with your or anyone else's opinion on what I do with my body. If this makes me selfish and a bad person, that's just your opinion man. If I am forced with threat of unemployment to take a vaccine I am uncomfortable with, it will be with force and coercion and will never forgive all of those who have no issue with that. I am more disappointed in my fellow citizens who are comfortable with the force and coercion than the government that is imposing it. I expect this from governments, not the people. This is so upsetting to me, I really have nothing more to say about the subject. There is nothing more to be said.
It took a LONG time, but you finally got to the honest answer.
And once again you fail reading comprehension miserably. But I expect this from you.
