[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

J.D. Vance - Red_Dragon - Jul 26, 2024 - 4:40pm
 
Yellowstone is in Wyoming Meetup • Aug. 11 2007 • YEA... - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 26, 2024 - 3:59pm
 
WHY am I so addicted to chocolate??? - Manbird - Jul 26, 2024 - 3:38pm
 
Israel - R_P - Jul 26, 2024 - 3:37pm
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - DrLex - Jul 26, 2024 - 3:02pm
 
Things You Thought Today - GeneP59 - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:33pm
 
Wordle - daily game - geoff_morphini - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:26pm
 
NY Times Strands - geoff_morphini - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:25pm
 
NYTimes Connections - geoff_morphini - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:24pm
 
Russia - a_geek - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:20pm
 
Paris Olympics - RedTopFireBelow - Jul 26, 2024 - 2:16pm
 
July 2024 Photo Theme - Summer - fractalv - Jul 26, 2024 - 8:18am
 
Project 2025 - rgio - Jul 26, 2024 - 5:38am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - Coaxial - Jul 26, 2024 - 5:01am
 
What inspires you? - sirdroseph - Jul 26, 2024 - 4:42am
 
Outstanding Covers - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 10:12pm
 
As California Goes, So Goes The Rest Of The Country - kurtster - Jul 25, 2024 - 9:48pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - haresfur - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:49pm
 
Neoliberalism: what exactly is it? - Steely_D - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:24pm
 
What makes you smile? - Steely_D - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:18pm
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:05pm
 
Poetry - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:50pm
 
Trump - kcar - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:22pm
 
Things that piss me off - Manbird - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:50pm
 
Electronic Music - Manbird - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:45pm
 
What the hell OV? - buddy - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:38pm
 
your music - Manbird - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:37pm
 
Joe Biden - Beaker - Jul 25, 2024 - 5:10pm
 
Photos you have taken of your walks or hikes. - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Jul 25, 2024 - 11:56am
 
USA! USA! USA! - R_P - Jul 25, 2024 - 10:48am
 
The War On You - Isabeau - Jul 25, 2024 - 9:31am
 
The Obituary Page - Antigone - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:43am
 
Get the Quote - black321 - Jul 25, 2024 - 8:06am
 
Today in History - DaveInSaoMiguel - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:44am
 
Rhetorical questions - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:36am
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:30am
 
Message To Lucky - oldviolin - Jul 25, 2024 - 6:22am
 
SCOTUS - Red_Dragon - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:56pm
 
2024 Elections! - black321 - Jul 24, 2024 - 5:56pm
 
Song from the TV series - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 3:49pm
 
songs that ROCK! - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 10:17am
 
Lyrics that are stuck in your head today... - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:39am
 
Song stuck in your head? - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:29am
 
Play the Blues - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:24am
 
Songs with a Groove - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 9:04am
 
Climate Change - R_P - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:54am
 
RightWingNutZ - Steely_D - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:21am
 
favorite love songs - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 8:21am
 
Jam! (why should a song stop) - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:49am
 
Song of the Day - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 7:35am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 24, 2024 - 6:43am
 
Amazing animals! - thisbody - Jul 24, 2024 - 12:47am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:18pm
 
Kamala Harris - haresfur - Jul 23, 2024 - 8:38pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 23, 2024 - 7:34pm
 
Musky Mythology - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 5:32pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - Antigone - Jul 23, 2024 - 3:28pm
 
Animal Resistance - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 1:54pm
 
Race in America - R_P - Jul 23, 2024 - 12:15pm
 
What Makes You Laugh? - geoff_morphini - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:42am
 
New Music - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 23, 2024 - 11:00am
 
Poetry Forum - Isabeau - Jul 23, 2024 - 8:18am
 
Sampled - R_P - Jul 22, 2024 - 6:51pm
 
Live Music - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:29pm
 
• • • What Makes You Happy? • • •  - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:04pm
 
Kamala Harris - kurtster - Jul 22, 2024 - 4:02pm
 
Europe - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:48pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:05pm
 
Got my Goat - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 3:02pm
 
Best wishes - thisbody - Jul 22, 2024 - 2:20pm
 
Jon Stewart interview - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 3:08pm
 
Acoustic Guitar - oldviolin - Jul 21, 2024 - 1:44pm
 
Gardeners Photos - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 7:39am
 
What Are You Going To Do Today? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 21, 2024 - 7:36am
 
The Human Condition - oldviolin - Jul 20, 2024 - 7:44pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » WikiLeaks Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 53, 54, 55, 56, 57  Next
Post to this Topic
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:48pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

Oh come on man, you can't just go round arresting and imprisoning people becuase you 'think' they may be guilty, that's not how justice works and you know it. Here's an example. You are in a gas station and some middle aged white dude holds up that station and shoots the cashier dead. They round up and imprison all middle aged white folk who were there, so that includes you, until a trial can be held, could be maybe 2,3 years? You think that would be fair or not?
 

The Judicial System in the US crawls. Our Constitution spells out the right to a fair and speedy trial. Speedy just never seems to make it to the starting line.
In July, 2007, two full time losers entered a Connecticutt home. Before the night was over, the father had been severly beaten, the mother raped and strangled, both young daughters tied to their beds while gasoline was poured around them *they died of smoke inhalation*. Just a few weeks back, one of the losers, Steven Hayes, was finally sentenced *two weeks or so after a verdict was reached* The other loser, Joshua Komisjarvesky, will now face trial. Speedy? Hardly. But that is how our system operates. And it stinks. Of course, Mr. Hayes, who drew the death penalty, will appeal. The average elapsed time of appeal for a death sentence in the US: 12.2 years.


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:38pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

I disagree with you here. You are not damned if you don't, not always and when you are it's often by the U.S citizens thinking they have this right to go in and be policeman of the world. Also, the places you may go and 'help' out always seem to be places that you can gain something from, i.e oil. It's a sort of payback, we come and help you but we then own that stuff you got. You don't see much help being offered to the folks in Africa who are often slaughtered in their thousands by corrupt governments. Just look at Zimbabwe in recent years? Not much help being done there is there? I think this is where people have a problem, not just with the U.S but here in the UK too. We only seem to head off to help people in those places where we may gain something back, so it's not for some moral reasons like it tries to be reported. I just think people are waking up to the fact sometimes you have to let some people sort their own shit out and sometimes people need to intervene but when to intervene should be based on reasons beyond what's in it for them.
 

Poppycock, I think? I don't think most US Citizens think/believe the US has the right to play global cop. I know I've heard many fellow citizens ask why we are always going here and there. But then, you're not a US Citizen. You just rely on POPPYCOCK. Funny how others from around the world know how US Citizens think, how our systems work yadda yadda yadda. POPPYCOCK.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:33pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Innocent until proved guilty is actually a basic premise of both your justice system and ours. 

 

Yeah, that's why we put people accused of crimes in jail and keep them there (or force them to pay bond) until trial. {#Wink}
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:31pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Just responding to Geordie...he used the word innocent for detainees. How do we know? Yes, they are presumed innocent. But he calls some innocent while others demand trials. If we call them innocent, why go through the Courts? Just release them. And like many before, most will do what they do best: go back to killing innocents in acts of terrorism.

 
Oh come on man, you can't just go round arresting and imprisoning people becuase you 'think' they may be guilty, that's not how justice works and you know it. Here's an example. You are in a gas station and some middle aged white dude holds up that station and shoots the cashier dead. They round up and imprison all middle aged white folk who were there, so that includes you, until a trial can be held, could be maybe 2,3 years? You think that would be fair or not?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:28pm

 cc_rider wrote:
To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.)

Err...before June of 1941 Russia (the Soviet Union at the time) was an ally of Germany, with whom they had just finished carving up Poland. US lend-lease shipments to the USSR started that month, and a US declaration of war came five months later.

If we had entered the war six months earlier we'd have been fighting the Russians. Not sure where this historical tidbit came from, but it doesn't make much sense.

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:27pm

 cc_rider wrote:
On that, most of can agree. It is impossible for the U.S. to perfectly gauge the amount of response required. Any action (or inaction) is guaranteed to draw criticism. Wasn't Clinton condemned for authorizing missile attacks against Saddam? Should we really have chased Osama into the quagmire of Afghanistan? Imagine the outrage if we had NOT sent troops after him. I'm not saying we're in a good place now, I'm only saying we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and nobody, but nobody, has the answers.

To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.) Korea? Vietnam? What should we have done differently? Sure, with hindsight we can see the errors, but at the time, who can say what the correct plan of action is?

 
I disagree with you here. You are not damned if you don't, not always and when you are it's often by the U.S citizens thinking they have this right to go in and be policeman of the world. Also, the places you may go and 'help' out always seem to be places that you can gain something from, i.e oil. It's a sort of payback, we come and help you but we then own that stuff you got. You don't see much help being offered to the folks in Africa who are often slaughtered in their thousands by corrupt governments. Just look at Zimbabwe in recent years? Not much help being done there is there? I think this is where people have a problem, not just with the U.S but here in the UK too. We only seem to head off to help people in those places where we may gain something back, so it's not for some moral reasons like it tries to be reported. I just think people are waking up to the fact sometimes you have to let some people sort their own shit out and sometimes people need to intervene but when to intervene should be based on reasons beyond what's in it for them.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:23pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Innocent until proved guilty is actually a basic premise of both your justice system and ours. 

 

Just responding to Geordie...he used the word innocent for detainees. How do we know? Yes, they are presumed innocent. But he calls some innocent while others demand trials. If we call them innocent, why go through the Courts? Just release them. And like many before, most will do what they do best: go back to killing innocents in acts of terrorism.


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:21pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote: 

And then there's the one dude who received an artifical limb, courtesy of the US Taxpayer...and he went on his merry way and engaged in acts of terrorism after his release. My my...bleeding hearts.
We release innocent folks from US jails all the time. That happens. Our system is not perfect. But those scooped up in Afghanistan were not busted for selling trinkets or tourist maps without a license.


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:19pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.

 

Innocent until proved guilty is actually a basic premise of both your justice system and ours. 


geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:17pm

 musik_knut wrote:


You and many others, without offering proof, have already decided what goes on or went on behind closed doors.
Innocent? Some want them to have a day in Court yet they are innocent? Why bother with Court? You and others find them innocent and then demand of the US that they be subject to a Court finding. Which is it? Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.

 
Well here's one person who was released after 6 years. An innocent man.

Sadly, he came out of there blinded in one eye.

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:17pm

 musik_knut wrote:
Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.

Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.
  On that, most of can agree. It is impossible for the U.S. to perfectly gauge the amount of response required. Any action (or inaction) is guaranteed to draw criticism. Wasn't Clinton condemned for authorizing missile attacks against Saddam? Should we really have chased Osama into the quagmire of Afghanistan? Imagine the outrage if we had NOT sent troops after him. I'm not saying we're in a good place now, I'm only saying we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and nobody, but nobody, has the answers.

To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.) Korea? Vietnam? What should we have done differently? Sure, with hindsight we can see the errors, but at the time, who can say what the correct plan of action is?


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:15pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.
 

You and many others, without offering proof, have already decided what goes on or went on behind closed doors.
Innocent? Some want them to have a day in Court yet they are innocent? Why bother with Court? You and others find them innocent and then demand of the US that they be subject to a Court finding. Which is it? Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.



EDIT: And many of those released were later involved in acts of terrorism. Oh, those innocent angels. How the left weeps for them...
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:11pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.

Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 
You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:05pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.
 

Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.



Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
And yet another non-sequitur from you. 

Why do you hate America?
 
{#Rolleyes} Good Lord....

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
 J.E. Dyer on media glee wrote:

A free press has often meant an adversarial press, and that in itself is not inherently bad. But an adversarial posture is justified by the constructiveness of its goals. There is a noticeably sophomoric element in the mainstream media’s cooperation with WikiLeaks: an indiscriminate enthusiasm for anything that’s being kept secret by the authorities, regardless of its objective value as information.

…The worth of the latest WikiLeaks dump is greater than zero — and greater even than its value in notifying us about Qaddafi’s voluptuous Ukrainian nurse. Its true value lies in confirming what hawks and conservatives have been saying about global security issues. China’s role in missile transfers from North Korea to Iran; Syria’s determined arming of Hezbollah; Iran’s use of Red Crescent vehicles to deliver weapons to terrorists; Obama’s strong-arming of foreign governments to accept prisoners from Guantanamo — these are things many news organizations are reporting prominently only because they have been made known through a WikiLeaks dump. In the end, WikiLeaks’s most enduring consequences may be the unintended ones.


 

 
OK, this is painful- I agree with you. Although my conclusions would differ- many of those in the US embassies have a hawkish perspective on events and that came across.  Nothing exciting was said and I can't imagine that any government with a decent intelligent service would be surprised by any of the revelations.  Some of it came across as pretty unprofessional and funnily enough you'd struggle to find so many awkward emails at the multinational firm I work for because we are always conscious of the potential for them being used in a court case etc.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:

Why do you hate America?

 

{#Roflol}
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:58pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)

 

Not every detainee in Gitmo was picked up in Afghanistan. KSM comes to mind. And the masterminds behind some of the more horrifying attacks, not in Afganistan, are held in Gitmo. Mr. Ghailani, the Embassy bomber, was not picked up in Afghanistan. Seems to be a hole in the knowledge about the nature of the Gitmo detainees, as if all were battlefield warriors. As for The Geneva Convention, which universally recognized uniform did any of the detainees wear? What recognized sovereign State did they take up arms for? That language comes early in The Geneva Convention. Oh, sorry. Geneva Convention language does not cover the detainees.
President Obama is grappling with many of the same thorny issues Mr. Bush had to deal with. It was easy for Candidate Obama to make statements on Gitmo. Actually doing something is far more difficult than political jaw boning in a campaign.
Those in support of terrorists were picked up in Afghanistan. As I understand it, that violates US Law and policy.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:57pm

 Beaker wrote:
Dude,  why are you re-visiting the long dead and done past

You're correct, why bring up the Bush years? That administration never told a big lie...those weapons of mass destruction were found....right??

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:52pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.

 
Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.

Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 53, 54, 55, 56, 57  Next