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peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:57pm

 Beaker wrote:
Dude,  why are you re-visiting the long dead and done past

You're correct, why bring up the Bush years? That administration never told a big lie...those weapons of mass destruction were found....right??

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:52pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.

 
Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:48pm

 musik_knut wrote:


 Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens..

 

Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:41pm

 islander wrote:

So it's okay to out secret agents if they are married to partisans?

 

Who said that? Oh, you think that was said. Nevermind.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:40pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


That's ok- so long as you start putting US citizens and those arrested on US soil in Guantanamo there will be far fewer accusations of double standards.  Probably more of human rights issues but, hey ho at least there'll be some consistency.

 

Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:38pm

 musik_knut wrote:

Nope. Did not forget that. I did find it curious that Mr. Armitage was never charged. Do keep in mind that Joe Wilson is a partisan Democrat. Just sayin'...
 
So it's okay to out secret agents if they are married to partisans?
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:35pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Our system is just fine, thank you. The detainees were placed in Gitmo because there was no other viable place for them *and yup, viable means political*. A Military Tribunal, and they have been used before in the US, would suffice.

 

That's ok- so long as you start putting US citizens and those arrested on US soil in Guantanamo there will be far fewer accusations of double standards.  Probably more of human rights issues but, hey ho at least there'll be some consistency.


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:34pm

 peter_james_bond wrote:


Are you forgetting that Scooter Libby, Cheney's Cheif of Staff,  was the only person charged in this affair? He's a quote from Joseph Wilson, Valerie's husband from an interview with Democracy Now "And so, we have filed suit against Vice President Cheney, Mr. Libby, Mr. Rove and Mr. Armitage. Those are the ones that we know were actively leaking, betraying Valerie’s identity to members of the press."

 


Nope. Did not forget that. I did find it curious that Mr. Armitage was never charged. Do keep in mind that Joe Wilson is a partisan Democrat. Just sayin'...
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:33pm

 Beaker wrote:



Though some heads need to roll too —- allowing that kind of unrestricted access to a relatively low level civilian means there's more to be fixed than one detail.  Of course the apparent fact that this tool smuggled it all out over 8 months on a CDRW also gives an IT security guy quite a bit of pause.

A message needs to be sent.  And the way to do that is take out Assange and his followers by any means necessary.  If the current US administration is too chickenshit to do that, then I'm sure there's plenty of others who have little concern about removing Assange and his enterprise from among the living.
 
Yeah, kill kill kill! That's the way to sort this out because history proves that it works, right?

Yeah, not killing someone instead of maybe TALKING TO THEM is like, soft man. If you want to be hard you must kill.

What a joke. 

peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:28pm

 musik_knut wrote:
So, Richard Armitage, the one who confessed to revealing Valarie Plame, was lying? Or is Armitage and Cheney the same person? 

Are you forgetting that Scooter Libby, Cheney's Cheif of Staff,  was the only person charged in this affair? He's a quote from Joseph Wilson, Valerie's husband from an interview with Democracy Now "And so, we have filed suit against Vice President Cheney, Mr. Libby, Mr. Rove and Mr. Armitage. Those are the ones that we know were actively leaking, betraying Valerie’s identity to members of the press."
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:18pm

 Beaker wrote:

If so, then you've effectively abdicated your right to criticize it. 

If you're not part of the solution ...
 

I don't buy that either.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:17pm

 Beaker wrote:

If so, then you've effectively abdicated your right to criticize it. 

If you're not part of the solution ...
 

Yup...don't vote, don't bitch.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:14pm

 Beaker wrote: 
Your link doesn't seem to have any problem with posting stuff from wikileaks. There might be a problem somewhere, but you gotta admit a lot of it is fascinating.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:13pm

 Beaker wrote:

So Obama uttered obvious lies in order to win the presidency?  Is that how you see it?

Did you vote for Barry, or Palin and the old white dude? 
 

I haven't voted in decades dude.  I refuse to participate a system so blatantly corrupt.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:11pm

 melissab wrote:
move on - these people really should have a talks behind their backs forum. Then we'd all be better off.

 

There was considerable 'talking behind their backs'. Are we now better off knowing that?
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:09pm

<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed_show_v2/300/2010/11/29/story/us_facing_global_diplomatic_crisis_following"><>

< src="http://www.democracynow.org/embed_show_v2/300/2010/11/29/story/us_facing_global_diplomatic_crisis_following" type="text/javascript"><
<><br /><br /><br /><br />
// ><>

rt,
Looks like a case of the hiccups...
mk
melissab

melissab Avatar

Location: Green Country
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:08pm

move on - these people really should have a talks behind their backs forum. Then we'd all be better off.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:08pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


If you need to fix your system then fix it.  Putting people in Guantanamo because you won't get the "right" answer in a court is not and never will be the solution

 

Our system is just fine, thank you. The detainees were placed in Gitmo because there was no other viable place for them *and yup, viable means political*. A Military Tribunal, and they have been used before in the US, would suffice.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:06pm

 peter_james_bond wrote:

Where's your proof that WikiLeaks has released information that has gotten people killed? Robert Gates said a review of a previous large release of information from WikiLeaks "has not revealed any sensitive intelligence sources and methods compromised by the disclosure"

WikiLeaks does go to some lengths to remove names and sensitive information (as do the newspapers that have the documents) from the leaked documents. They would appear to have more ethics than Dick Cheney who exposed a CIA operative Valerie Plame to get back at her husband who had exposed a serious lie put forth by the Bush administration.


 

So, Richard Armitage, the one who confessed to revealing Valarie Plame, was lying? Or is Armitage and Cheney the same person?
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:05pm

 musik_knut wrote:


The US offered 'fundamental right' of legal representation to Ahmed Ghailani, the mad bomber behind the simultaneous attacks on US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Many of us, knowing how convoluted the US Justice system can be, how demanding it is of evidence and so forth, knew that removing a Gitmo detainee from Gitmo and not using a Military Tribunal, would result in Mr. Ghailani escaping the more damning charges. 291 innocent souls were lost due to his actions yet in a Federal Court, he was found guilty only of committing conspiracy to damage property. I don't think most of the world outside the US understands our system, yet they bray on as if they do and we don't.
Many of us in the US understand the mindset of Attorneys such as Lynne Stewart, defender of the blind Egyptian Sheik who orchestrated the first attacks on the Twin Towers: she passed on messages from the Sheik to his equally radical supporters and then committed perjury when denying those actions. Most of the lawyers in the US who foam on about how radicals held at Gitmo must have a day in Court, are of that same liberal mindset.
If Khalid Sheik Mohammed, self-confessed mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks *supported by data on his computers and other electronic means*, comes to a Federal Court, he will likely walk when the Court is fully instructed on interrogation methods used while being held at Gitmo. Wouldn't that be a fine day...he walks, 3,000 are dead due to his actions.
This administration, led by President Obama and the Attorney General, appear to want settings for radicals that will likely see a re-do of the nonsense findings in the case of Mr. Ghailani. Meanwhile, Team Obama promises that KSM will never be a free man. What if a Court says different? Working the system for the perpetrators of death and destruction invites such findings. Some of us, in the US, understand that. Many, outside the US, don't.

 

If you need to fix your system then fix it.  Putting people in Guantanamo because you won't get the "right" answer in a court is not and never will be the solution


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