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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » WikiLeaks Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 53, 54, 55, 56  Next
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geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:31pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Just responding to Geordie...he used the word innocent for detainees. How do we know? Yes, they are presumed innocent. But he calls some innocent while others demand trials. If we call them innocent, why go through the Courts? Just release them. And like many before, most will do what they do best: go back to killing innocents in acts of terrorism.

 
Oh come on man, you can't just go round arresting and imprisoning people becuase you 'think' they may be guilty, that's not how justice works and you know it. Here's an example. You are in a gas station and some middle aged white dude holds up that station and shoots the cashier dead. They round up and imprison all middle aged white folk who were there, so that includes you, until a trial can be held, could be maybe 2,3 years? You think that would be fair or not?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:28pm

 cc_rider wrote:
To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.)

Err...before June of 1941 Russia (the Soviet Union at the time) was an ally of Germany, with whom they had just finished carving up Poland. US lend-lease shipments to the USSR started that month, and a US declaration of war came five months later.

If we had entered the war six months earlier we'd have been fighting the Russians. Not sure where this historical tidbit came from, but it doesn't make much sense.

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:27pm

 cc_rider wrote:
On that, most of can agree. It is impossible for the U.S. to perfectly gauge the amount of response required. Any action (or inaction) is guaranteed to draw criticism. Wasn't Clinton condemned for authorizing missile attacks against Saddam? Should we really have chased Osama into the quagmire of Afghanistan? Imagine the outrage if we had NOT sent troops after him. I'm not saying we're in a good place now, I'm only saying we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and nobody, but nobody, has the answers.

To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.) Korea? Vietnam? What should we have done differently? Sure, with hindsight we can see the errors, but at the time, who can say what the correct plan of action is?

 
I disagree with you here. You are not damned if you don't, not always and when you are it's often by the U.S citizens thinking they have this right to go in and be policeman of the world. Also, the places you may go and 'help' out always seem to be places that you can gain something from, i.e oil. It's a sort of payback, we come and help you but we then own that stuff you got. You don't see much help being offered to the folks in Africa who are often slaughtered in their thousands by corrupt governments. Just look at Zimbabwe in recent years? Not much help being done there is there? I think this is where people have a problem, not just with the U.S but here in the UK too. We only seem to head off to help people in those places where we may gain something back, so it's not for some moral reasons like it tries to be reported. I just think people are waking up to the fact sometimes you have to let some people sort their own shit out and sometimes people need to intervene but when to intervene should be based on reasons beyond what's in it for them.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:23pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Innocent until proved guilty is actually a basic premise of both your justice system and ours. 

 

Just responding to Geordie...he used the word innocent for detainees. How do we know? Yes, they are presumed innocent. But he calls some innocent while others demand trials. If we call them innocent, why go through the Courts? Just release them. And like many before, most will do what they do best: go back to killing innocents in acts of terrorism.


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:21pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote: 

And then there's the one dude who received an artifical limb, courtesy of the US Taxpayer...and he went on his merry way and engaged in acts of terrorism after his release. My my...bleeding hearts.
We release innocent folks from US jails all the time. That happens. Our system is not perfect. But those scooped up in Afghanistan were not busted for selling trinkets or tourist maps without a license.


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:19pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.

 

Innocent until proved guilty is actually a basic premise of both your justice system and ours. 


geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:17pm

 musik_knut wrote:


You and many others, without offering proof, have already decided what goes on or went on behind closed doors.
Innocent? Some want them to have a day in Court yet they are innocent? Why bother with Court? You and others find them innocent and then demand of the US that they be subject to a Court finding. Which is it? Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.

 
Well here's one person who was released after 6 years. An innocent man.

Sadly, he came out of there blinded in one eye.

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:17pm

 musik_knut wrote:
Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.

Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.
  On that, most of can agree. It is impossible for the U.S. to perfectly gauge the amount of response required. Any action (or inaction) is guaranteed to draw criticism. Wasn't Clinton condemned for authorizing missile attacks against Saddam? Should we really have chased Osama into the quagmire of Afghanistan? Imagine the outrage if we had NOT sent troops after him. I'm not saying we're in a good place now, I'm only saying we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, and nobody, but nobody, has the answers.

To this day, Russia STILL holds a grudge against the U.S. for its late entry into WWII (while we're on the subject of WWII.) Korea? Vietnam? What should we have done differently? Sure, with hindsight we can see the errors, but at the time, who can say what the correct plan of action is?


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:15pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.
 

You and many others, without offering proof, have already decided what goes on or went on behind closed doors.
Innocent? Some want them to have a day in Court yet they are innocent? Why bother with Court? You and others find them innocent and then demand of the US that they be subject to a Court finding. Which is it? Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.



EDIT: And many of those released were later involved in acts of terrorism. Oh, those innocent angels. How the left weeps for them...
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:11pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.

Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 
You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:05pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.
 

Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.



Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
And yet another non-sequitur from you. 

Why do you hate America?
 
{#Rolleyes} Good Lord....

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
 J.E. Dyer on media glee wrote:

A free press has often meant an adversarial press, and that in itself is not inherently bad. But an adversarial posture is justified by the constructiveness of its goals. There is a noticeably sophomoric element in the mainstream media’s cooperation with WikiLeaks: an indiscriminate enthusiasm for anything that’s being kept secret by the authorities, regardless of its objective value as information.

…The worth of the latest WikiLeaks dump is greater than zero — and greater even than its value in notifying us about Qaddafi’s voluptuous Ukrainian nurse. Its true value lies in confirming what hawks and conservatives have been saying about global security issues. China’s role in missile transfers from North Korea to Iran; Syria’s determined arming of Hezbollah; Iran’s use of Red Crescent vehicles to deliver weapons to terrorists; Obama’s strong-arming of foreign governments to accept prisoners from Guantanamo — these are things many news organizations are reporting prominently only because they have been made known through a WikiLeaks dump. In the end, WikiLeaks’s most enduring consequences may be the unintended ones.


 

 
OK, this is painful- I agree with you. Although my conclusions would differ- many of those in the US embassies have a hawkish perspective on events and that came across.  Nothing exciting was said and I can't imagine that any government with a decent intelligent service would be surprised by any of the revelations.  Some of it came across as pretty unprofessional and funnily enough you'd struggle to find so many awkward emails at the multinational firm I work for because we are always conscious of the potential for them being used in a court case etc.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Dumbf*ckistan


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:

Why do you hate America?

 

{#Roflol}
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:58pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)

 

Not every detainee in Gitmo was picked up in Afghanistan. KSM comes to mind. And the masterminds behind some of the more horrifying attacks, not in Afganistan, are held in Gitmo. Mr. Ghailani, the Embassy bomber, was not picked up in Afghanistan. Seems to be a hole in the knowledge about the nature of the Gitmo detainees, as if all were battlefield warriors. As for The Geneva Convention, which universally recognized uniform did any of the detainees wear? What recognized sovereign State did they take up arms for? That language comes early in The Geneva Convention. Oh, sorry. Geneva Convention language does not cover the detainees.
President Obama is grappling with many of the same thorny issues Mr. Bush had to deal with. It was easy for Candidate Obama to make statements on Gitmo. Actually doing something is far more difficult than political jaw boning in a campaign.
Those in support of terrorists were picked up in Afghanistan. As I understand it, that violates US Law and policy.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:57pm

 Beaker wrote:
Dude,  why are you re-visiting the long dead and done past

You're correct, why bring up the Bush years? That administration never told a big lie...those weapons of mass destruction were found....right??

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:52pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.

 
Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:48pm

 musik_knut wrote:


 Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens..

 

Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:41pm

 islander wrote:

So it's okay to out secret agents if they are married to partisans?

 

Who said that? Oh, you think that was said. Nevermind.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:40pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


That's ok- so long as you start putting US citizens and those arrested on US soil in Guantanamo there will be far fewer accusations of double standards.  Probably more of human rights issues but, hey ho at least there'll be some consistency.

 

Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.
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