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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » WikiLeaks Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 53, 54, 55, 56  Next
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musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:15pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.
 

You and many others, without offering proof, have already decided what goes on or went on behind closed doors.
Innocent? Some want them to have a day in Court yet they are innocent? Why bother with Court? You and others find them innocent and then demand of the US that they be subject to a Court finding. Which is it? Innocent or as yet not determined by a Court? It cannot be both.



EDIT: And many of those released were later involved in acts of terrorism. Oh, those innocent angels. How the left weeps for them...
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:11pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.

Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 
You are talking about SOME detainees here. There were (and are) many innocent people being held in that draconian place. Shackled in chains, blindfolded, handcuffed and that's just to move tem around. It's barbaric man! If that's what they do in the open goodness knows what goes on behind closed doors.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:05pm

 geordiezimmerman wrote:

Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.
 

Extreme torture? BULLSHIT. Drink more European flavored Kool-Aid...  Innocent? Like KSM? Or the twisted mind behind the Bali bombings? Or the 'oh how I love the US Judicial system' Mr. Ghailani, the angel of death who sent 291 innocent souls to their maker? Forget the deaths, he's guilty of destroying a building. And that probably satisfies a good number of left wing asswipes, the ones who clamor for detainees to be tried in a US Court.



Not starting anything on WWII. I have always admired the British determination to not buckle under heavy attack. I always admired and was stirred by the words of Mr. Churchill *too bad Mr. Obama has less of a liking for Mr. Churchill*   ...but Kosovo comes to mind... The US is damned if we do, damned if we don't.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
And yet another non-sequitur from you. 

Why do you hate America?
 
{#Rolleyes} Good Lord....

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:
 J.E. Dyer on media glee wrote:

A free press has often meant an adversarial press, and that in itself is not inherently bad. But an adversarial posture is justified by the constructiveness of its goals. There is a noticeably sophomoric element in the mainstream media’s cooperation with WikiLeaks: an indiscriminate enthusiasm for anything that’s being kept secret by the authorities, regardless of its objective value as information.

…The worth of the latest WikiLeaks dump is greater than zero — and greater even than its value in notifying us about Qaddafi’s voluptuous Ukrainian nurse. Its true value lies in confirming what hawks and conservatives have been saying about global security issues. China’s role in missile transfers from North Korea to Iran; Syria’s determined arming of Hezbollah; Iran’s use of Red Crescent vehicles to deliver weapons to terrorists; Obama’s strong-arming of foreign governments to accept prisoners from Guantanamo — these are things many news organizations are reporting prominently only because they have been made known through a WikiLeaks dump. In the end, WikiLeaks’s most enduring consequences may be the unintended ones.


 

 
OK, this is painful- I agree with you. Although my conclusions would differ- many of those in the US embassies have a hawkish perspective on events and that came across.  Nothing exciting was said and I can't imagine that any government with a decent intelligent service would be surprised by any of the revelations.  Some of it came across as pretty unprofessional and funnily enough you'd struggle to find so many awkward emails at the multinational firm I work for because we are always conscious of the potential for them being used in a court case etc.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 1:00pm

 Beaker wrote:

Why do you hate America?

 

{#Roflol}
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:58pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)

 

Not every detainee in Gitmo was picked up in Afghanistan. KSM comes to mind. And the masterminds behind some of the more horrifying attacks, not in Afganistan, are held in Gitmo. Mr. Ghailani, the Embassy bomber, was not picked up in Afghanistan. Seems to be a hole in the knowledge about the nature of the Gitmo detainees, as if all were battlefield warriors. As for The Geneva Convention, which universally recognized uniform did any of the detainees wear? What recognized sovereign State did they take up arms for? That language comes early in The Geneva Convention. Oh, sorry. Geneva Convention language does not cover the detainees.
President Obama is grappling with many of the same thorny issues Mr. Bush had to deal with. It was easy for Candidate Obama to make statements on Gitmo. Actually doing something is far more difficult than political jaw boning in a campaign.
Those in support of terrorists were picked up in Afghanistan. As I understand it, that violates US Law and policy.
peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:57pm

 Beaker wrote:
Dude,  why are you re-visiting the long dead and done past

You're correct, why bring up the Bush years? That administration never told a big lie...those weapons of mass destruction were found....right??

geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:52pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.

 
Utter bullshit. Have you seen the state of some of the folks, innocent folks at that, since they have been released after years of extreme torture in that place? Or are you just choosing to ignore those?

Don't even get me started on the 'If it wasn't for the U.S in WWII you'd be screwed' argument.

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:48pm

 musik_knut wrote:


 Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens..

 

Exactly what crimes against US citizens were people committing when fighting in Afghanistan?  Not that I am suggesting they are in the pink fluffy rabbit slippers camp but your logic perplexes me. 
I would go with either:

a) they are prisoners of war in which case the Geneva convention applies

or

b) they have committed a crime in which case the US justice system applies and bring them to trial

/obviously events have overtaken Bush and Cheney and Obama is sort of at (b)


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:41pm

 islander wrote:

So it's okay to out secret agents if they are married to partisans?

 

Who said that? Oh, you think that was said. Nevermind.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:40pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


That's ok- so long as you start putting US citizens and those arrested on US soil in Guantanamo there will be far fewer accusations of double standards.  Probably more of human rights issues but, hey ho at least there'll be some consistency.

 

Utter nonsense. And a fundamental failure to understand the reasons, correct in my opinion and that of many others, why Gitmo was chosen to hold radical Muslims who had committed crimes against US Citizens. For Europe or Europeans to endlessly find reason to fault the US over this or that is something I find insignificant. Next time you folks need us, you'll hold our jacket while we do your heavy lifting...and that is a true consistency.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:38pm

 musik_knut wrote:

Nope. Did not forget that. I did find it curious that Mr. Armitage was never charged. Do keep in mind that Joe Wilson is a partisan Democrat. Just sayin'...
 
So it's okay to out secret agents if they are married to partisans?
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:35pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Our system is just fine, thank you. The detainees were placed in Gitmo because there was no other viable place for them *and yup, viable means political*. A Military Tribunal, and they have been used before in the US, would suffice.

 

That's ok- so long as you start putting US citizens and those arrested on US soil in Guantanamo there will be far fewer accusations of double standards.  Probably more of human rights issues but, hey ho at least there'll be some consistency.


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:34pm

 peter_james_bond wrote:


Are you forgetting that Scooter Libby, Cheney's Cheif of Staff,  was the only person charged in this affair? He's a quote from Joseph Wilson, Valerie's husband from an interview with Democracy Now "And so, we have filed suit against Vice President Cheney, Mr. Libby, Mr. Rove and Mr. Armitage. Those are the ones that we know were actively leaking, betraying Valerie’s identity to members of the press."

 


Nope. Did not forget that. I did find it curious that Mr. Armitage was never charged. Do keep in mind that Joe Wilson is a partisan Democrat. Just sayin'...
geordiezimmerman

geordiezimmerman Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:33pm

 Beaker wrote:



Though some heads need to roll too —- allowing that kind of unrestricted access to a relatively low level civilian means there's more to be fixed than one detail.  Of course the apparent fact that this tool smuggled it all out over 8 months on a CDRW also gives an IT security guy quite a bit of pause.

A message needs to be sent.  And the way to do that is take out Assange and his followers by any means necessary.  If the current US administration is too chickenshit to do that, then I'm sure there's plenty of others who have little concern about removing Assange and his enterprise from among the living.
 
Yeah, kill kill kill! That's the way to sort this out because history proves that it works, right?

Yeah, not killing someone instead of maybe TALKING TO THEM is like, soft man. If you want to be hard you must kill.

What a joke. 

peter_james_bond

peter_james_bond Avatar

Location: West Of The Burg
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:28pm

 musik_knut wrote:
So, Richard Armitage, the one who confessed to revealing Valarie Plame, was lying? Or is Armitage and Cheney the same person? 

Are you forgetting that Scooter Libby, Cheney's Cheif of Staff,  was the only person charged in this affair? He's a quote from Joseph Wilson, Valerie's husband from an interview with Democracy Now "And so, we have filed suit against Vice President Cheney, Mr. Libby, Mr. Rove and Mr. Armitage. Those are the ones that we know were actively leaking, betraying Valerie’s identity to members of the press."
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:18pm

 Beaker wrote:

If so, then you've effectively abdicated your right to criticize it. 

If you're not part of the solution ...
 

I don't buy that either.
musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:17pm

 Beaker wrote:

If so, then you've effectively abdicated your right to criticize it. 

If you're not part of the solution ...
 

Yup...don't vote, don't bitch.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 30, 2010 - 12:14pm

 Beaker wrote: 
Your link doesn't seem to have any problem with posting stuff from wikileaks. There might be a problem somewhere, but you gotta admit a lot of it is fascinating.

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