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arsenault

arsenault Avatar

Location: long beach cali USandA
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 10:31pm

 Atman wrote:

Years ago I saw Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, who in my opinion has the most to say about all of this. So, it's not news at all, only a confirmation. In fact, Chomsky is one of those folks who is NEVER on any of the MSM shows. Cause he kicks everybody's ass when it comes to the truth. His whole deal is that we have a corporatist government, not a social democracy. That is, our votes are based on how much money is lined up for them. A social democracy is where each vote has equal power. Unfortunately, every single person has to wage a campaign to figure out what's true. Corporate forces make sure it's harder and harder to tell the truth, and then use all their money to manipulate people's opinions based on what bullshitake works.

The forces lined up against just health care are exactly working to the purpose of money, not health care. They are making fearful people think they are going to be left out. And it is the biggest lie there is right now.
 
with respect..chomsky never puts himself in a debate because he is so full of shit and never wants to be called on it.
he will only appear in a venue where he won't be challenged. usually a rambling incoherent coma inducing monotone monologue.
most people see through the bs when they enter the real world after college, or do any rudimentary self education on politics and culture.

and really we should discuss chomsky under leftwingnutZ

he is a fine linguist though. 
Atman

Atman Avatar

Location: Sandpoint, ID
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 10:19pm

 kurtster wrote:

So is this news to you or a confirmation of your own thoughts ?

Ain't no surprise to me.

The Fourth Estate is no longer.  I pronounced it dead when I raised the point that rather than investigate Bernie Madoff, Mort Zuckerman of the U S News and World Report and The New York Daily News chose to keep it to himself and invest.  So welcome to the party.  You must now view more news than ever from ALL sources to be able to cull some sort of sense of what is going on.  Which makes places like these where people post all kinds of links that are from obscure sources more valuable.

FWIW: Last night on C2C I heard a prediction of a Bank Holiday coming in the Fall.  Also, support HR 1207 by calling your Representives.  It is the Bill that calls for an audit of the Federal Reserve.  It is being held in committee by Frank and Pelosi.  They are blocking its vote and preventing it from getting to the floor.  This bill has bi partisan sponsorship of over 280 members of the House and 20 sponsors in the Senate.

HR 1207

 
Years ago I saw Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky, who in my opinion has the most to say about all of this. So, it's not news at all, only a confirmation. In fact, Chomsky is one of those folks who is NEVER on any of the MSM shows. Cause he kicks everybody's ass when it comes to the truth. His whole deal is that we have a corporatist government, not a social democracy. That is, our votes are based on how much money is lined up for them. A social democracy is where each vote has equal power. Unfortunately, every single person has to wage a campaign to figure out what's true. Corporate forces make sure it's harder and harder to tell the truth, and then use all their money to manipulate people's opinions based on what bullshitake works.

The forces lined up against just health care are exactly working to the purpose of money, not health care. They are making fearful people think they are going to be left out. And it is the biggest lie there is right now.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 9:07pm

 kurtster wrote:

Old news.  Its been discussed in other threads during the election.  It was even investigated during his first run in 2000 as one of your references noted..  To compare a birth of a child to military personnel on a U S Base in a U S Territory to the birth of a child to non military citizens in a foreign country is a comparison of apples and oranges.  A Puerto Rican is a natural born U S Citizen in a U S territory and could therefore be elected President to the best of my knowledge.  My remarks do not challenge where Obama was born and took his first breath, just commenting on the circumstances being compared..

 

yeah, I wouldn't think that it made McCain ineligible, I just had never noticed the topic before. weird that I missed it.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 8:49pm

 dmax wrote:
Something I learned today from On The Media that I didn't know.

In 1936, where was John McCain born? The man that the GOP put up to become president. Who, by law, needed to have been born in the US - which is the foundation for the birther's arguments.

Let's look it up...

And then there was some discussion about it, but ultimately no one seemed to make a big deal about it. 
Interesting. It never came up on my radar during all that time he was running.

 
 
Old news.  Its been discussed in other threads during the election.  It was even investigated during his first run in 2000 as one of your references noted..  To compare a birth of a child to military personnel on a U S Base in a U S Territory to the birth of a child to non military citizens in a foreign country is a comparison of apples and oranges.  A Puerto Rican is a natural born U S Citizen in a U S territory and could therefore be elected President to the best of my knowledge.  My remarks do not challenge where Obama was born and took his first breath, just commenting on the circumstances being compared..


(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 8:17pm

Something I learned today from On The Media that I didn't know.

In 1936, where was John McCain born? The man that the GOP put up to become president. Who, by law, needed to have been born in the US - which is the foundation for the birther's arguments.

Let's look it up...

And then there was some discussion about it, but ultimately no one seemed to make a big deal about it. 
Interesting. It never came up on my radar during all that time he was running.

 brandog wrote:
This woman should get some kind of prize and a complimentary 72 hour evaluation at the nearest mental health facility.


 


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 8:15pm

 Atman wrote:

Didn't you like this? I thought it was very bi-partisan of me.

Regardless of your political position, this has got to make you sick to your stomach. I admit, I love Keith Olbermann and Charlie Rose, and this is depressing as hell. If anyone thinks that any media outlet has the least amount of integrity, then:
Gate of hell sign - Dante's Inferno by italiangerry.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/01/ge/

 
So is this news to you or a confirmation of your own thoughts ?

Ain't no surprise to me.

The Fourth Estate is no longer.  I pronounced it dead when I raised the point that rather than investigate Bernie Madoff, Mort Zuckerman of the U S News and World Report and The New York Daily News chose to keep it to himself and invest.  So welcome to the party.  You One must now view more news than ever from ALL sources to be able to cull some sort of sense of what is going on.  Which makes places like these where people post all kinds of links that are from obscure sources more valuable.

FWIW: Last night on C2C I heard a prediction of a Bank Holiday coming in the Fall.  Also, support HR 1207 by calling your Representives.  It is the Bill that calls for an audit of the Federal Reserve.  It is being held in committee by Frank and Pelosi.  They are blocking its vote and preventing it from getting to the floor.  This bill has bi partisan sponsorship of over 280 members of the House and 20 sponsors in the Senate.

HR 1207


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 7:00pm

 Atman wrote:

Didn't you like this? I thought it was very bi-partisan of me.

Regardless of your political position, this has got to make you sick to your stomach. I admit, I love Keith Olbermann and Charlie Rose, and this is depressing as hell. If anyone thinks that any media outlet has the least amount of integrity, then:
Gate of hell sign - Dante's Inferno by italiangerry.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/01/ge/

 

no comment
Atman

Atman Avatar

Location: Sandpoint, ID
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 6:54pm

 musik_knut wrote:


it's ok...I  think I'll avoid the political threads...I seem destined to just tangle with folks in here...that's boring and not a lot of fun...
thanks...

 
Didn't you like this? I thought it was very bi-partisan of me.

Regardless of your political position, this has got to make you sick to your stomach. I admit, I love Keith Olbermann and Charlie Rose, and this is depressing as hell. If anyone thinks that any media outlet has the least amount of integrity, then:
Gate of hell sign - Dante's Inferno by italiangerry.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/08/01/ge/


musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 6:49pm

 hippiechick wrote:
 musik_knut wrote:


Fine. So, when I say I'm not a HAVE, I'm BSing? Fine. Believe what fabrications you wish to create of me even though you don't know me. Stereotype me as you wish. That's bigotry in motion. You do it pathetically well... It seems much of your angst stems from not enough being done for you...


 

To musik_knut:

I apologize for poking you these past two days.
 

it's ok...I  think I'll avoid the political threads...I seem destined to just tangle with folks in here...that's boring and not a lot of fun...
thanks...
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 5:49pm

 musik_knut wrote:


Fine. So, when I say I'm not a HAVE, I'm BSing? Fine. Believe what fabrications you wish to create of me even though you don't know me. Stereotype me as you wish. That's bigotry in motion. You do it pathetically well... It seems much of your angst stems from not enough being done for you...


 

To musik_knut:

I apologize for poking you these past two days.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 5:23pm

*bump*

Good NPR coverage concerning the video clip below - apparently, the "birther" movement is more than just a few congressmen and a couple of judges - it's grass roots!
 
brandog wrote:
This woman should get some kind of prize and a complimentary 72 hour evaluation at the nearest mental health facility.


I nominate her for

The Purple Brain Award

for July, 2009.
 


(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 8:49am

 The_End wrote:
The Right doesn't have the ignorance market cornered. I wish they did. There would be more hope then.

I expect that the intelligent forces of Nature will act to thin the herd sometime soon.

 
One thing I can say for sure is that I want the lunatic fringe to be just as visible and noisy as possible - when it all comes down, and the shooting starts, I know who's gonna get it while I'm busy collecting canned food, boxes of irradiated bacon, batteries, and fuel from the ruins of their bunkers.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 8:16am

 The_End wrote:

That is one of the most ignorant displays I've ever had the misfortune to witness. And it is not easy to get near the top of that ever-growing list.

 
Meet the New American Right
same as the Old American Right
(just add crystal meth and stir)

I hope America becomes an 3litist meritocracy soon - all this yammering is making me tired.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 7:40am

 musik_knut wrote:


Fine. So, when I say I'm not a HAVE, I'm BSing? Fine. Believe what fabrications you wish to create of me even though you don't know me. Stereotype me as you wish. That's bigotry in motion. You do it pathetically well... It seems much of your angst stems from not enough being done for you...

 
You have a point there.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar



Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 7:31am

This woman should get some kind of prize and a complimentary 72 hour evaluation at the nearest mental health facility.


I nominate her for

The Purple Brain Award

for July, 2009.

jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 7:09am

 kurtster wrote:

{#Cheers}

Hell I don't even know if I made any sense after re reading this as I am pretty flippin tired, but WTF, tomorrow is a new day.  To me that is the most important part of life now.

 
And I, for one, am richer and grateful for your being here, this day... and the next.

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 2, 2009 - 5:50am

 hippiechick wrote:

It's not hatred, it's amusement. I am just calling you on your bullshit.
 

Fine. So, when I say I'm not a HAVE, I'm BSing? Fine. Believe what fabrications you wish to create of me even though you don't know me. Stereotype me as you wish. That's bigotry in motion. You do it pathetically well... It seems much of your angst stems from not enough being done for you...
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 1, 2009 - 9:11pm

kurtster wrote:
I would like to think that an American is someone who recognizes and respects the roots of the nation's birth and finds that the Constitution is the accepted law of the land (and puts country ahead of ethnicity).  That it was born of an Anglo Protestant point of view is a fact and the way things are.  To ignore that and / or make it a detraction is a disservice to this nation and the Constitution.   While the Founding Fathers and documents recognize a Creator, it does not recognize any particular church or devine right to rule.  Whether or not you believe in a creator is secondary and neither's rights are restricted.  
I would also proffer that those who come to America with the intent to change rather than join what has been established is undesireable. 

——————————————————————————-

Jadewahoo wrote:
Geez, you Americans sure do not know your history:

Origins or Our Constitution
Much of the Constitution came from the Five Nations Constitution, a document created by a group of eastern American Indian tribes called the Iroquois. The original five nations included the Mohawks, Oneidas, Onondagas, Cayugas, and Senecas. Later, when the Tuscaroras Nation joined the Iroquois, they called it the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy. The estimated date of the creation of the document is August 31, 1142 and was approved in what is now a football field in Victor, New York.<1
———————————
Our Founding Fathers:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
                            John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

."Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
                      Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society?  In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people.  Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries.  A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
                           James Madison - "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.  Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated.  I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
                       George Washington in a letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church,  nor by any Church that I know of.  My own mind is my own Church.  Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
                         Thomas Paine

Shall I go on?
———————————
Well, I do agree with you on this point...

The indigenous American Indian population had already been reduced, in a process which is ongoing to this day, from perhaps 12.5 million in the year 1500 to fewer than 250,000 by the beginning of the 20th century. This was accomplished, according to official sources, "largely through the cruelty of Euro American settlers," and an informal but clear governmental policy which had made it an articulated goal to "exterminate these red vermin" or at least whole segments of them.

.

Or, as my Gramma Naomi (the Matriarch of our Clan) said "Them? Don't listen to them. They are all Boat People (that is: illegal immigrants, for you who do not remember Boat People anxiety)."

................................................

So, you see, your whole premise, and that of the other 'Anti-Them' flag-wavers, is based in illusion, falsehood and ignorance. Why, you wonder, do some around you so disparage your beliefs and paranoid rantings? Well, it is time to take an honest look at the investment you carry in your agenda. Then... get off it, or be forever doomed to rant and rave like a crazy man in the park.

—————————————————————————————————

My response:

I still maintain that regardless of its roots, the final draft of the Constitution had a point of view which was is for lack of any other way to express it, is of an Anglo Protestant reference.  It does not mention any particular religion and in fact is devoid of any particular reference other than God and Creator, who ever "it" or "they" might be.

The Constitution is the result and does not infact authorize any injustices and the genocide that the leaders of this country perpetrated on the indigenous American Indian population.  What happened was a perversion of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.  There is no justification for what happened, IMO.  Everyone lost lives and property in this war of attrition.  I cannot apologize for what I was not responsible for.  As I can accurately say that no one in my family ever owned slaves, why should I have to bear that responsibility associated with being a white man ?  This is a circular argument at best, and I know that I am doomed to lose just because I am a Caucasian American.  I am guilty because I am.  Can I say with assuredness that my family never committed attrocities towards indigenous American Indians, no, but to the best of my knowledge, no.  But here we are. 

When it is accepted that EVERYONE here came from somewhere else, including the indigenous American Indian population that crossed the land bridge from Asia, then we are finally going to be able to resolve some of our problems.  There are no natives to this continent. To use the I was here first argument is hollow for anyone on this continent trying to make any point.  That discussion always ends in war.  Other than expressing points of view on things I observe, I can only speak for myself, in the end.  I cannot speak for my government, my ancestors or progeny, only myself.  You lay out a solid argument for the points you offer, of that I cannot disagree.

In my arguments, I don't believe that I use the term "WE" very much, if at all.  I only offer my take on what I see.  My views are not set in stone and I am not in lock step with any particular party or point of view that I know of.  I offer my take on things for the purpose of discussion, learning and in some cases, to challenge rediculous assertions.  And yes I will take some pot shots, but never intentionally go personal.  (EXO not included)  I learn more each day, especially when my views are challenged and I have to come up with a serious defense of them.  They change and evolve as I live.  In the end, I must use the Constitution as a reference for living in this country.  My conscience tells me other things, but still I use the Constitution as a reference point to interact with all others in this country.  What else can I use ?

So is this the place for a serious discussion of anything ?  Probably not.  Its an Internet Radio station website after all, more suited for discussions of trivia and American Idol and the like.  But WTF, I enjoy a good argument, even if I am on the losing side.  Because it made me think.  I still get something out of it that I can use in real life and hopefully in the next one.

{#Cheers}

Hell I don't even know if I made any sense after re reading this as I am pretty flippin tired, but WTF, tomorrow is a new day.  To me that is the most important part of life now.



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