VV wrote: 
Yep, his inability to acknowledge that small nations have any agency is kind of hilarious, given that he usually champions the rights of minorities and the undertrodden. 

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
I would really love to hear his view on Finland & Sweden joining NATO and who was responsible for that. 
 
I'm guessing he will spin it as aggressive NATO expansionism forced on those two countries... instead of what it really is... to try and protect the sovereignty of those nations from a nation that demonstrates it clearly doesn't respect that. 

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
I don't think he was being sarcastic. I am pretty sure Westslope sees Russia as the victim of US warmongering / NATO expansionism and thinks Russia is completely innocent of any aggressive intent towards its neighbours. 

Not sure how he can think that, given the historical evidence, but I am pretty sure that is what he thinks.

 Red_Dragon wrote:
But is it really sarcasm... if you have to stop and wonder if it's sarcasm?

 VV wrote:

he was being sarcastic, me thinks

 westslope wrote:
WTF? Where is the lie and what anti-data are you even talking about?

 Lazy8 wrote:
Yes, I did not address at all the issue of  the United States’ share of the tab nor its implications. SFW’s post referenced a Trump proposal/suggestion that the US leave NATO.  I do not think it should. NATO is not obsolete, as Trump then claimed (Trump later claimed he was just trying to get the Europeans to pay more for their defense)

It is abundantly clear that the US cannot continue to attempt to serve as kind of a global police force, not in Europe, not in Asia, not in the Middle East, not anywhere. Just from a financial standpoint, this is the reality. 

For good or ill, a big part of US foreign policy post-WWII has been to “fight them over there.” That is why Bin Laden thought it important to bring the war home to America. He also foresaw a draining of America’s money and patience. That was part of his strategy. Some of that is coming to fruition.

Big questions are confronting us. Dynamics have changed. Shouting “America First,” will not begin to provide any solutions. One thing I believe to be obvious is that Americans need to learn to accept that America is not always going to be a top dog. We cannot just impose our will, politically, socially, militarily. We will need to work and play well with others.

 VV wrote:
That is a lie and you know it. 

Stop being anti-data like Trump supporters.

 steeler wrote:
There is more to that than "NATO good." NATO being necessary to defend a free Europe doesn't imply that the US should pay for it.

If the Ukraine war demonstrates anything it's that Europe needs to take responsibility for its own defense. Decades of relying on Uncle Sugar has left it unprepared to deal with a threat like Putin—not just militarily but politically and socially.

The US would be essential in a shooting war, but we don't face most of the consequences of one. The reprisals don't fall on our cities, we don't shiver thru a winter with no heat, the refugees don't stream across our borders, and we don't have to live with a belligerent neighbor after.

I don't think the US funding NATO thru the 20th century was a mistake; it lead to a mostly-free, peaceful, and prosperous Europe after a disastrous half-century of war. European dependency on the US in the 21st century is now pretty clearly a mistake, and one that Europe needs to fix.

 black321 wrote:

Sounds like something HITLER would say!

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
The importance of peace in Europe is once again being demonstrated. I would say the Russian invasion of Ukraine has underscored the need for NATO.

 VV wrote:

Upsides and downsides to NATO but when Trump was saying we should leave, a lot of people hadn't thought about it in years and were hard pressed to immediately specify why he was wrong. Myself included. 

 westslope wrote:
It’s only because of NATO membership that the Baltic States haven’t been smashed by the Russian military and annexed by Russia so thank God for that. And thank God for Finland and Sweden for deciding to become a part of NATO as well.

So yea, if Ukraine had been granted full membership earlier we more than likely would not be seeing this Russian military aggression.

I love how you act as if independent countries are not independent and not allowed/capable of making their own decisions in terms of their global associations. No one is forcing anyone to join NATO. Did NATO force Finland & Sweden to join? The only dark age morality and warrior attitude that I am seeing is coming from the Russian side. NATO was probably the weakest it had been in years but thanks to Russia that has all changed.

 kurtster wrote:

No.  Not all.   Your political elites along with significant popular support are in the processing of hammering the poor on fixed income and low-income workers. 

1.  Your dual mandate monetary policy makes high inflation and financial instability more likely than less likely.  It is exacerbated by a naïve belief in economic growth as opposed to higher per capita wealth outcomes.  If it was up to me, the employment mandate would be dropped and the inflation target reduced to 1% and ultimately to 0%.  

2.  The US cheap energy entitlement and the lowest excise taxes on gasoline and diesel among the rich western democracies make the US economy more vulnerable to oil price shocks.

3.  Clearly little thought went into providing NATO membership to former Warsaw Pact countries and the threat to make Ukraine a member of NATO.  As long as Dark Ages morality and an old Testament warrior attitude prevails over US foreign policy, more mistakes will be made.  The most vulnerable will suffer, as always.  

Not to over-post but as @briantaylorcohen tweeted,


Hell of a week for Biden:

-528k July jobs added
-Unemployment at 3.5% (50-year low)
-Zawahiri killed
-CHIPS Act passes
-PACT Act passes
-Inflation Reduction Act deal
-Gas hits 50+ day low (median US price below $4/gal)
-Kansas protects abortion

And he oversaw it all with COVID.

Demand for gas is down 10% compared to 2019. That's not a huge amount. According to this Reuters article, price drops for refined retail gas lags behind crude petroleum price drops. Crude has plummeted in price, retail gas has slowly dropped in price. 

Interesting piece! 

U.S. gasoline prices are finally falling. Why?

https://www.reuters.com/busine...

 kurtster wrote:
528,000 jobs added in July. Not clear we're in a recession. 

Kurt, if you're going to make claims about the economy, please provide reliable supporting evidence. There are enough bloviating liars and fantasists in the world.

Why can't apparently intelligent folks at least make an effort to understand complex situations?
I think instead, they just savor the argument.

 Bill_J wrote:

We can discuss over pizza at Comet Ping Pong.

 Red_Dragon wrote:

I don't understand economics very well but I'm pretty sure it has something to do with child sex-trafficking.