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Index »
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General Discussion »
RightWingNutZ
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(former member)
![(former member) Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/46064.jpg)
Location: hotel in Las Vegas Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 8:16pm |
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dionysius wrote: It's more than a critique; it's a program!!! It does not have to be revolutionary violence that accomplishes that program; in fact I'd prefer it it if it weren't. But it is more than just sniping at capitalist excesses and injustices, and more than mere reformist amelioration of the same. It is a fundamental overhaul that privileges people over markets, and erases real class distinctions and barriers. Modern Marxism must be peaceful, nonviolent, democratic, and determined. Hardnose, commonsense agitation, education and organization are the only tools towards accomplishing this, not elitist "vanguard" ideologies and unfocused anarchism. You can have capitalism, too, but only within a socialist framework, if you want social justice and equality linked to freedom of action and productivity. There's our Hegelian synthesis.
And you said to Kurt—
It does not mean public ownership of everything!!! My toothbrush is mine, and yours is yours. However, the open land, water, air, uranium and opera is for everyone to share, equally. The largest possible public domain, in all senses. The commons, rather than fenced-off private lots of different sizes.
It means public provision of the necessary things of life, however that society chooses to define it. Be it education, food, housing, employment, heath care, etc. A classless society, with true equality of opportunity, and not one way, one track, one enclave for rich people and others for everyone else. Merit and work rewarded, not greed and placement and networking. A solid floor beneath everyone, with room for personal improvement above that. A real synthesis of Adam Smith and Karl Marx. A market that serves us, and not us the market.
Not utopia. But a better place than now.
It is interesting, and I must point out the difference— I said analyzing, and I meant objective... you chose critique, which implies a judgment... to me, Marxism is a materialistic tool to understand the machinations of capitalism in economic terms of labor, profit, capital investment, etc., with no social chafe attached... I have always thought that the weakness of Marx's conclusions (critiques) was his failure to see a way to operate within the system of capitalism with collective bargaining — labor unions — workers of the world, unite! But again, to me, Marxism, with its objective materialism, is an excellent mode of analysis for all economic systems... I am kind of groping in the dark here, and I apologize for that...
I know I be so elite but here is something I find interesting from the Stanford Encyclopedia—
Historical materialism - Marx's theory of history - is centered around the idea that forms of society rise and fall as they further and then impede the development of human productive power. Marx sees the historical process as proceeding through a necessary series of modes of production, culminating in communism. Marx's economic analysis of capitalism is based on his version of the labour theory of value, and includes the analysis of capitalist profit as the extraction of surplus value from the exploited proletariat. The analysis of history and economics come together in Marx's prediction of the inevitable economic breakdown of capitalism, to be replaced by communism. However Marx refused to speculate in detail about the nature of communism, arguing that it would arise through historical processes, and was not the realisation of a pre-determined moral ideal.
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 7:59pm |
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dionysius wrote:
It does not mean public ownership of everything!!! My toothbrush is mine, and yours is yours. However, the open land, water, air, uranium and opera is for everyone to share, equally. The largest possible public domain, in all senses. The commons, rather than fenced-off private lots of different sizes.
It means public provision of the necessary things of life, however that society chooses to define it. Be it education, food, housing, employment, heath care, etc. A classless society, with true equality of opportunity, and not one way, one track, one enclave for rich people and others for everyone else. Merit and work rewarded, not greed and placement and networking. A solid floor beneath everyone, with room for personal improvement above that. A real synthesis of Adam Smith and Karl Marx. A market that serves us, and not us the market.
Not utopia. But a better place than now.
I think that phrase contradicts itself. Who gets to decide who lives where and who does what ? No room for individualism, darn that ism thing again. I prefer the beach, yet the government decides that I should live in North Dakota. I want to be a marine geologist, but the government says we don't need any and I must make doorknobs for public housing, because we need more doorknobs. Equal opportunity for what ? To do what I really want to do ? Or equal opportunity to do for the government ? Edit: and who decides Mac or PC ?
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dionysius
![dionysius Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/35413.jpg)
Location: The People's Republic of Austin Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 7:44pm |
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kurtster wrote: But what about the part of a Socialistic society where the government owns everything, there is no private property ? Am I missing something or are we ignoring a crucial part of what Socialism really is ? How do you reconcile privacy and private property with the program ? How does one have motivation without ownership or the possibilty of ownership of personal property for example ? We rent everything from the government and have no form of private transportation ?
It does not mean public ownership of everything!!! My toothbrush is mine, and yours is yours. However, the open land, water, air, uranium and opera is for everyone to share, equally. The largest possible public domain, in all senses. The commons, rather than fenced-off private lots of different sizes. It means public provision of the necessary things of life, however that society chooses to define it. Be it education, food, housing, employment, heath care, etc. A classless society, with true equality of opportunity, and not one way, one track, one enclave for rich people and others for everyone else. Merit and work rewarded, not greed and placement and networking. A solid floor beneath everyone, with room for personal improvement above that. A real synthesis of Adam Smith and Karl Marx. A market that serves us, and not us the market. Not utopia. But a better place than now.
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 7:30pm |
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dionysius wrote: It's more than a critique; it's a program!!! It does not have to be revolutionary violence that accomplishes that program; in fact I'd prefer it it if it weren't. But it is more than just sniping at capitalist excesses and injustices, and more than mere reformist amelioration of the same. It is a fundamental overhaul that privileges people over markets, and erases real class distinctions and barriers. Modern Marxism must be peaceful, nonviolent, democratic, and determined. Hardnose, commonsense agitation, education and organization are the only tools towards accomplishing this, not elitist "vanguard" ideologies and unfocused anarchism. You can have capitalism, too, but only within a socialist framework, if you want social justice and equality linked to freedom of action and productivity. There's our Hegelian synthesis.
But what about the part of a Socialistic society where the government owns everything, there is no private property ? Am I missing something or are we ignoring a crucial part of what Socialism really is ? How do you reconcile privacy and private property with the program ? How does one have motivation without ownership or the possibilty of ownership of personal property for example ? We rent everything from the government and have no form of private transportation ?
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dionysius
![dionysius Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/35413.jpg)
Location: The People's Republic of Austin Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 7:12pm |
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romeotuma wrote:
To me, at its essence, Marxism is a materialistic methodology for analyzing capitalism...
It's more than a critique; it's a program!!! It does not have to be revolutionary violence that accomplishes that program; in fact I'd prefer it it if it weren't. But it is more than just sniping at capitalist excesses and injustices, and more than mere reformist amelioration of the same. It is a fundamental overhaul that privileges people over markets, and erases real class distinctions and barriers. Modern Marxism must be peaceful, nonviolent, democratic, and determined. Hardnose, commonsense agitation, education and organization are the only tools towards accomplishing this, not elitist "vanguard" ideologies and unfocused anarchism. You can have capitalism, too, but only within a socialist framework, if you want social justice and equality linked to freedom of action and productivity. There's our Hegelian synthesis.
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Manbird
![Manbird Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/25877-1407307273.jpg)
Location: La Villa Toscana Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 7:10pm |
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dionysius wrote:
:sigh: The name "communist" and some Marxist trappings and rhetoric were hijacked by repressive Russian nationalists, and this somehow becomes everyone's historical misunderstanding of Marxism. That's why I won't use the term, though I prefer it to "socialist" for a number of etymological reasons. People are right to equate Hitler and Stalin—not much to choose between them, really. We need to look to ourselves and our motivations, always. Chauvinistic nationalism of any stripe is bad news, and that includes American nationalism. I agree: Communism is having to share the same stupid bowling ball with everybody at Johnson's 16th St. Mega Lanes even the sweaty guy with the fat fingers who smells like fish tacos and italian sausage all day.
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dionysius
![dionysius Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/35413.jpg)
Location: The People's Republic of Austin Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:53pm |
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hippiechick wrote: Well, they call themselves Communists, but, really they are Totalitarians.
:sigh: The name "communist" and some Marxist trappings and rhetoric were hijacked by repressive Russian nationalists, and this somehow becomes everyone's historical misunderstanding of Marxism. That's why I won't use the term, though I prefer it to "socialist" for a number of etymological reasons. People are right to equate Hitler and Stalin—not much to choose between them, really. We need to look to ourselves and our motivations, always. Chauvinistic nationalism of any stripe is bad news, and that includes American nationalism.
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hippiechick
![hippiechick Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/29866.png)
Location: topsy turvy land Gender: ![Female](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_female.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:46pm |
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kurtster wrote: I am only speaking in terms of a sovereign State government, not about a kibbutz or farming commune in Montana, for example. And the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only disolved some 15 years ago, not 100 years ago, and China is still around last I looked along with Cuba and North Korea. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Meet the new boss same as the old boss ...
So what is the new paradigm I'm missing here anyway ?
And the only thing synthethic going on around here is how we make money.
Well, they call themselves Communists, but, really they are Totalitarians. Although he never used the terms himself, the triad thesis, antithesis, synthesis is often used to describe the thought of German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. The triad is usually described in the following way: - The thesis is an intellectual proposition.
- The antithesis is simply the negation of the thesis, a reaction to the proposition.
- The synthesis solves the conflict between the thesis and antithesis by reconciling their common truths, and forming a new proposition.
According to Walter Kaufman, although the triad is often <1> thought to form part of an analysis of historical and philosophical progress called the Hegelian dialectic, the assumption is erroneous. Hegel used this classification only once, and he attributed the terminology to Immanuel Kant. The terminology was largely developed earlier by the neo-Kantian Johann Gottlieb Fichte, also an advocate of the philosophy identified as German idealism. The triad is often said to have been extended and adopted by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, however, Marx referred to them in The Poverty of Philosophy as speaking Greek and "Wooden trichotomies".
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sirdroseph
![sirdroseph Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/78797-1637776963.png)
Location: Not here, I tell you wat Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:16pm |
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:14pm |
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sirdroseph wrote:Yea, really it all comes down to eatin and poopin. ![{#Hungry} {#Hungry}](scripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/img/icon_hungry.gif) May all your traffic lights be forever green, my brother.
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sirdroseph
![sirdroseph Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/78797-1637776963.png)
Location: Not here, I tell you wat Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:08pm |
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kurtster wrote: I am only speaking in terms of a sovereign State government, not about a kibbutz or farming commune in Montana, for example. And the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only disolved some 15 years ago, not 100 years ago, and China is still around last I looked along with Cuba and North Korea. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Meet the new boss same as the old boss ...
So what is the new paradigm I'm missing here anyway ?
And the only thing synthethic going on around here is how we make money.
Yea, really it all comes down to eatin and poopin.
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 6:01pm |
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hippiechick wrote: In theory, communism is not a bad thing. If a group of people is agreeable to living communally, then it works.
However, Stalinism, Trotskyism, etc. isn't true communism. It's the ruling class having everything they want, while the rest suffer. If it was true communism, The government would be out working with the people.Besides, you are talking about -isms that existed 100 yrs ago. Things have changed. The terms used in the 20th Century are no longer applicable. Start trying to think out of the box, Kurt.
Are you familiar with thesis, antithesis, synthesis?
I am only speaking in terms of a sovereign State government, not about a kibbutz or farming commune in Montana, for example. And the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics only disolved some 15 years ago, not 100 years ago, and China is still around last I looked along with Cuba and North Korea. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Meet the new boss same as the old boss ... So what is the new paradigm I'm missing here anyway ? And the only thing synthethic going on around here is how we make money.
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hippiechick
![hippiechick Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/29866.png)
Location: topsy turvy land Gender: ![Female](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_female.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 5:17pm |
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kurtster wrote: I have a long held belief that it is not unreasonable to equate Communism to an organized religfion, where the State is the Religion. Its all about what is best for the State before everything else. An evil religion. That's my over simplified take. I have heard some of my own friends defend the actions of the government recently by stating that the government's needs should come before the people's. I am left speechless in response to that. If that's how most American's feel about things, then it is truly over in my opinion and this is just the endgame.
In theory, communism is not a bad thing. If a group of people is agreeable to living communally, then it works. However, Stalinism, Trotskyism, etc. isn't true communism. It's the ruling class having everything they want, while the rest suffer. If it was true communism, The government would be out working with the people.Besides, you are talking about -isms that existed 100 yrs ago. Things have changed. The terms used in the 20th Century are no longer applicable. Start trying to think out of the box, Kurt. Are you familiar with thesis, antithesis, synthesis?
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 4:50pm |
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Argonaut wrote: Kurtster, this your statement. It clearly makes the very point I have been trying to say regarding the socialism. It isn't a question, it is a statement. And I won't NEGLECT to mention the hundreds of millions of people who were murdered if they failed to toe the communist/socialist line. The communist/socialist states make Hitler PALE IN COMPARISON. More people have been killed by communism/socialism than the ENTIRE COMBINED HISTORY of this earth. Capitalism is a progressive, simply because it is not feasible for it not to be. The very survival of corporations who do not move forward would be in doubt, whereas in communist/socialist states, such SURVIVAL IS IRRELEVANT, hence the stagnation that is rampant in communism/socialism.
I have a long held belief that it is not unreasonable to equate Communism to an organized religfion, where the State is the Religion. Its all about what is best for the State before everything else. An evil religion. That's my over simplified take. I have heard some of my own friends defend the actions of the government recently by stating that the government's needs should come before the people's. I am left speechless in response to that. If that's how most American's feel about things, then it is truly over in my opinion and this is just the endgame.
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 3:21pm |
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Argonaut wrote: No no, not 'take a swing'. There somebody asked 'what is wrong with socialism', so I've typed a definitions. Sarcastically and being really really angry. You are just proving now that Obama IS a socialist, no?
I've said he was from the beginning. I was the one who posed the question, what is wrong with calling Obama a Socialist, since so many here deny that he is yet profess to be Socialist or favor Socialism themselves. Perhaps they feel he isn't Socialist enough to be called a Socialist, I don't really know, that's why I asked. I ask lot's of questions here. Sometimes I know the answers before I ask and sometimes I really do not know the answers. I toss sketty on the wall to see what sticks. Does not mean that my views can be ascertained by the kinds of questions I ask. I poke and nudge and sometimes go off the rails, but not with the intention of getting personal or down right mean. Sometimes emotions do get the best of me, but I am of the opinion that the stupidest question is the one not asked.
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GeneP59
![GeneP59 Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/5031-1591989894.png)
Location: On the edge of tomorrow looking back at yesterday. Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 3:21pm |
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Hey, Sen. Edwards. What do you call 1000 lawyers at the bottom of the lake? ...... A good start! But they missed you.
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kurtster
![kurtster Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/7904-1510442194.jpg)
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 3:11pm |
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hippiechick wrote: Doesn't it concern you that so many elected officials, people who should be reasonable, believe this ridiculous lie?
It is the D's and the LDSM who keep giving this crap about O's birth certificate the light of day. They could ignore it like so many other things that they ignore so well, like the will of the people and this would fade away. It is only kept in the highlight of things because it is used to discredit groups with legitimate concerns and points of view by associating the birthers to their complaints in an effort to discredit everyone on the opposing side.
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samiyam
![samiyam Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/12223.jpg)
Location: Moving North ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 3:10pm |
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Argonaut wrote: No no, not 'take a swing'. There somebody asked 'what is wrong with socialism', so I've typed a definitions. Sarcastically and being really really angry. You are just proving now that Obama IS a socialist, no?
"Tell me the truth, you aren't really out here for the "hunting", are you?" ~ The Bear ~
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musik_knut
![musik_knut Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/44453.gif)
Location: Third Stone From The Sun Gender: ![Male](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_male.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 8:48am |
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hippiechick wrote: You're right. I put JE's name in on edit. He threw these people, who were completely devoted to him, under a garbage truck and went back and forth several times. As disgusting as they come.
Well, politically, I believe we've heard the last of Sen. Edwards. Good riddance to him *and any like him*.
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hippiechick
![hippiechick Avatar](https://img.radioparadise.com/avatars/29866.png)
Location: topsy turvy land Gender: ![Female](graphics/icons/icon_minigender_female.gif) ![](graphics/clear.gif)
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Posted:
Feb 24, 2010 - 8:47am |
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musik_knut wrote:
Andrew Young of Sen. Edward's group? Almost anything said in a negative light about Sen. Edward's will pass the first smell test with me. What a deceiving worm. We are talking about the same Young? Or do I have names jumbled up?
You're right. I put JE's name in on edit. He threw these people, who were completely devoted to him, under a garbage truck and went back and forth several times. As disgusting as they come.
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