Funny thing, that list. It's full of people who have aided and abetted Trump's lawlessness, oath or no oath.
Sure, he's supposed to step down, I get that. But what's stop him? Seriously, I'm asking. What would Congress do? Send in the National Guard? What happens if the private-militia types show up, fueled by Trump's ranting about a rigged election? Sure, all those people you listed could refuse to do their jobs. But that doesn't get Trump physically removed from the White House. The military is bound by law against intervening. The militia nuts would have to be eliminated one way or another. I like to imagine once they lost a few members to overwhelming firepower, they'd realize the jig was up. But I can imagine a handful of holdouts, determined to go out in a blaze of glory. Look at that mess in Nevada, the Bundy Standoff.
I'm just saying, if Trump keeps fueling the fire of those wackjobs, things could turn very, very ugly.
No. not terribly. And not for long.
When he gets 5K people in an arena for a rally they are drawn from a large radius around the event. They aren't all locals, his fanatical support isn't that dense. And look at them: generally decrepit baby boomers. A few younger guys with goatees and tattoos, but mostly retirement age. People who aren't really up to an insurgency. That takes stamina and effort and focus. They don't have any of that—they're busy running a carpet outlet or a nail salon.
The first Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville had about 500 attendees, and they came from far and wide too. When they held the second one a year later 30 demonstrators showed up. This is a tiny movement; even given weeks to organize they were outnumbered by counter-protestors 2:1.
Do you know how much it costs to drive to DC from Oklahoma or Idaho? What would they do once they got there, surround the Bureau of Labor Statistics? They'd run out of Slim Jims and Bud Light pretty quick. Then what? Even on friendly ground they haven't been able to build any momentum, and if they start shedding blood they will lose what little support they have.
What's to stop him? A better question is who would help him? He can't do anything more strenuous than tweet. He can't operate anything more complex than a sharpie. He can only give orders, and then those people can only give orders. Lots of people have to cooperate for him to do anything.
When inauguration day comes what's he going to do, order the Secret Service to barricade the national mall? Call in an air strike? Real human beings—lots of them—would have to follow an obviously unlawful order for anything like that to happen. He can't even shake down the president of Ukraine without his own employees ratting on him.
I mean...build a bunker if it makes you feel better, but there are lots of more-productive avenues to put your energy into and more-realistic threats to prepare for than Trump leading an insurrection.
So now y'all are worried about Trump refusing to step down should he either be impeached or lose the next election and start a civil war ? I guess so as I just heard Nadler say that the 2020 election is already illegitimate because of what Trump has done in Ukraine.
Y'all and your party are truly sick, sick puppies.
And ... I was going to just sit still for awhile on the this thought but since y'all are going batshit crazy in here, I'll go for it.
What do all of you here who have defended the Steele Dossier as a gospel fact and in the process have been downright nasty in regards to my position that it is and always was utter and complete bullshit ? We know who you all are. It is most of you who regularly post in this thread. You all have been very vocal about impugning and viciously maligning anyone who dared to say it was only a partisan fantasy. The IG report if nothing else, has confirmed my position about its veracity and importance in securing the original FISA warrant on Carter Page and launching the chain of events we have been discussing these past several years. My take is being proved right while y'all's is being proved wrong. Everything that has followed has been fruit from this deadly poisonous tree. It is not a conspiracy theory on my part, it is y'all's conspiracy theory which has now been categorically proven false.
So do any of you still cling to the notion that the Steele Dossier is true and factual and proof of Trump's colluding with Russia based upon his vulnerability to blackmail, at the very least ? Is any one willing to admit that I am not deranged, misinformed and only exhibiting wishful thinking as I have so often been accused in so many words so often by so many here ?
The last paragraph was rhetorical as I expect no one here to have the cajones to admit they were wrong at the very least about the Steele Dossier and its importance in getting us to where we are today.
Go ahead and spew more conspiracy theories about Trump and his supporters. It is what y'all do.
I haven't read all the back and forth here about whether Trump would step down willingly if he lost the election. But he would have to step down: most of Congress, the career employees of the federal government, the Supreme Court and the military would refuse to do their jobs if Trump refused to acknowledge a loss of a fair and open election.
The groups listed above take the Constitution and their oaths to it very seriously. I can't imagine that even Trump supporters within those groups would side with his defiance of the choice of a popular election.
Funny thing, that list. It's full of people who have aided and abetted Trump's lawlessness, oath or no oath.
Sure, he's supposed to step down, I get that. But what's stop him? Seriously, I'm asking. What would Congress do? Send in the National Guard? What happens if the private-militia types show up, fueled by Trump's ranting about a rigged election? Sure, all those people you listed could refuse to do their jobs. But that doesn't get Trump physically removed from the White House. The military is bound by law against intervening. The militia nuts would have to be eliminated one way or another. I like to imagine once they lost a few members to overwhelming firepower, they'd realize the jig was up. But I can imagine a handful of holdouts, determined to go out in a blaze of glory. Look at that mess in Nevada, the Bundy Standoff.
I'm just saying, if Trump keeps fueling the fire of those wackjobs, things could turn very, very ugly. c.
In order for gold to work in the apocalypse, better buy a armoured truck and some semi-automatic weapons so you are secure when purchasing items in the local stores.
I plan on getting into the armoured truck business. That will be my hedge for the dystopian future. Others already have the semi-automatic weapons business well covered.
Thanks for the info - I'll go big into ATGMs and acuquire your wealth by force.
Refresh my memory please. In the latter part of the Vietnam War, Americans were highly polarized.
Yet, I don't recall any loose talk of civil war. Though I do remember folks discussing that in the event of a revolution if revolution would be fascist.
Get a grip, folks. I heard exactly the same prediction about the last two presidents: they won't leave office! They'll take over as dictators for life!
Usually followed by "Better buy gold!" But I digress.
Granted Trump is not as decent a human being as the last, oh I don't know...44 presidents? But I think he understands where a move like that ends: complaining that the orange jumpsuit is itchy.
x 2
In order for gold to work in the apocalypse, better buy a armoured truck and some semi-automatic weapons so you are secure when purchasing items in the local stores.
I plan on getting into the armoured truck business. That will be my hedge for the dystopian future. Others already have the semi-automatic weapons business well covered.
I haven't read all the back and forth here about whether Trump would step down willingly if he lost the election. But he would have to step down: most of Congress, the career employees of the federal government, the Supreme Court and the military would refuse to do their jobs if Trump refused to acknowledge a loss of a fair and open election.
The groups listed above take the Constitution and their oaths to it very seriously. I can't imagine that even Trump supporters within those groups would side with his defiance of the choice of a popular election.
Really? SOME of them do, certainly not all - particularly in the Senate.
I haven't read all the back and forth here about whether Trump would step down willingly if he lost the election. But he would have to step down: most of Congress, the career employees of the federal government, the Supreme Court and the military would refuse to do their jobs if Trump refused to acknowledge a loss of a fair and open election.
The groups listed above take the Constitution and their oaths to it very seriously. I can't imagine that even Trump supporters within those groups would side with his defiance of the choice of a popular election.
I certainly hope so, of course. His rhetoric belies a different plan, however.
- To this day he insists the 2016 election, that he WON, was rigged. He didn't win the popular vote, which in his mind is de facto evidence of election tampering. What will he say when he loses? - He decries the impeachment process as illegitimate. He threatened witnesses for obeying Congressional subpoenas, IN REAL TIME. Witness tampering right in the middle of their testimony! - He regularly instructs his staff to break the law: lie to Congress, ignore subpoenas, et al. Several are already in jail. Several more deserve to be. - He jokes repeatedly about serving more than two terms. He always insists it's a joke, but it wears thin. - He regularly incites his supporters to violence against anyone who is not fawning over him, especially the press.
Of course I do not seek civil war. What I BELIEVE is, his rhetoric is highly inflammatory. And a small number of his supporters are heavily armed and radicalized by his words and actions. A few hundred, heck a few dozen, of those types could show up at the White House to 'protect' the president from, in his mind, an illegitimate impeachment, or a rigged, illegitimate election. He has already stated, hundreds of times, he does not respect the results of an election (again, that he WON), or the impeachment process. What's to stop him from declaring he will not be bound by a 'rigged' election or a 'witch hunt'? Common decency and respect for the rule of law? Who do you think we're talking about here? c.
geeteaare wrote:
If the Pres. loses, he will step aside. I just don't understand why people believe some of the things they do. No matter what side of the isle you graze. A Civil war? Come on...... Let's hope not. I can guess who owns the great majority of the 393 million guns(estimated to be actually) 412 to 600 million guns in this country. Nope, don't want a Civil war. M
Okay, I have a question. What happens if, by some miracle, the Senate votes to remove Trump from office. What if he shouts/tweets 'Witch Hunt' and refuses to step down? Then what? Does the Senate Sergeant-at-Arms go to the White House and physically remove him? The Secret Service might take issue with that. As would many well-armed, MAGA hat-wearing supporters. Imagine thousands of people, assault-style rifles at the ready, ringing the White House.
By the same token, what if in 2020, Trump does not win the election, but cries 'Rigged Election' and refuses to step down in January? Same scenario. He just locks himself in the White House and refuses to come out. The true believers have already proven they are prepared, in fact hoping for, armed confrontation. Does Pennsylvania Avenue become a river of blood?
Who instructs the authorities to physically remove the President from office? For that matter, which authorities get the task: the military? DC Police? National Guard? Secret Service?
Is anybody else concerned this President could spark a civil war? c.
Lots of hypotheticals. IMO the most probable scenario is that senate votes along party lines to acquit, Repubs claim overwhelming mandate 'proving' he did nothing wrong, then continue to allow gerrymandering, voter suppression, fraud, and Russian influence to win the 2020 election. Then everyone can prepare for at least 20 years theocracy and kleptocracy. Democrats will be relegated to the role of token opposition that "proves" the US is a democracy.
If the Pres. loses, he will step aside. I just don't understand why people believe some of the things they do. No matter what side of the isle you graze. A Civil war? Come on...... Let's hope not. I can guess who owns the great majority of the 393 million guns(estimated to be actually) 412 to 600 million guns in this country. Nope, don't want a Civil war. M
I think it's reasonable to worry that some might overreact, but the reality is that about a third of the country likes Trump. He received 28.5% of eligible votes last time (46.4% of the votes cast, with 38.6% of those eligible not voting). Polling misleads folks to think it's half of the country, but about 10% of those contacted actually participate in polls....and they do so over and over. The polls not moving is as much a factor of the people they're asking as it is the questions being asked.
Okay, I have a question. What happens if, by some miracle, the Senate votes to remove Trump from office. What if he shouts/tweets 'Witch Hunt' and refuses to step down? Then what? Does the Senate Sergeant-at-Arms go to the White House and physically remove him? The Secret Service might take issue with that. As would many well-armed, MAGA hat-wearing supporters. Imagine thousands of people, assault-style rifles at the ready, ringing the White House.
By the same token, what if in 2020, Trump does not win the election, but cries 'Rigged Election' and refuses to step down in January? Same scenario. He just locks himself in the White House and refuses to come out. The true believers have already proven they are prepared, in fact hoping for, armed confrontation. Does Pennsylvania Avenue become a river of blood?
Who instructs the authorities to physically remove the President from office? For that matter, which authorities get the task: the military? DC Police? National Guard? Secret Service?
Is anybody else concerned this President could spark a civil war? c.
This is the one that I'm worried about. I think we are integrated enough that people will realize how bad a civil war would be and some rational solution would prevail. But I'm often wrong and even in my creative imagination I can't construct a scenario where people will come back to compromise and respect for differences. So I keep 800 gallons of diesel in my house and I know which way Canada is.
Of course, anything is possible, but I am not overly concerned about his being able to spark a civil war or uprising, especially in terms of American history (e.g. the Depression era, and 1968 seem like much more fertile times for such things) and I don't adhere to most of the Doomsday scenarios I've been hearing tossed about (there's a difference between being cynical and being pessimistic). When Obama took office there were even people here who went on about "imminent" class warfare and race riots, and especially how the recession economy was going to get "far. far worse" before it recovered - none of that happened (though thousands of people had their guns taken away and/or disappeared into FEMA Camps apparently). It's not a matter of realizing "how bad a civil war would be", most Americans seem too consumerized, indifferent, and indolent to even be involved in something inconvenient like a war - that would require a lot of conviction. Was there ever a time when Americans existed with "compromise and respect for differences"?
To be clear, I don't think a civil war is a probable outcome. I do think it's likely that Trump would resist stepping if it appeared he lost in 2020. Regardless of the outcome I think a large percentage of people will question the legitimacy of the 2020 election (the doubters will vary with the outcome). As you mentioned, we are to soft for a big war. We are also to integrated, military exists everywhere in large numbers, but the allegiances to 'home' are all over as well and mixed in the ranks. People are also very integrated, the land is far more purple than red/blue that the election maps would have you believe. What would it even look like? Where would the borders fall? Who gets Colorado (and who gets to defend it)? How are supply lines, power, communication broken? What about ports? It's all pretty messy - it might take a year or more to figure out what the war would look like.
This gets us back to CC's question though. If not a war, what do we have? Is there a resolution?
Maybe we never respected our differences, but there have been times when we allowed them without so much vitriol.
Get a grip, folks. I heard exactly the same prediction about the last two presidents: they won't leave office! They'll take over as dictators for life!
Usually followed by "Better buy gold!" But I digress.
Granted Trump is not as decent a human being as the last, oh I don't know...44 presidents? But I think he understands where a move like that ends: complaining that the orange jumpsuit is itchy.
Okay, I have a question. What happens if, by some miracle, the Senate votes to remove Trump from office. What if he shouts/tweets 'Witch Hunt' and refuses to step down? Then what? Does the Senate Sergeant-at-Arms go to the White House and physically remove him? The Secret Service might take issue with that. As would many well-armed, MAGA hat-wearing supporters. Imagine thousands of people, assault-style rifles at the ready, ringing the White House.
By the same token, what if in 2020, Trump does not win the election, but cries 'Rigged Election' and refuses to step down in January? Same scenario. He just locks himself in the White House and refuses to come out. The true believers have already proven they are prepared, in fact hoping for, armed confrontation. Does Pennsylvania Avenue become a river of blood?
Who instructs the authorities to physically remove the President from office? For that matter, which authorities get the task: the military? DC Police? National Guard? Secret Service?
Is anybody else concerned this President could spark a civil war? c.
You mean like on Twitter?
Get a grip, folks. I heard exactly the same prediction about the last two presidents: they won't leave office! They'll take over as dictators for life!
Usually followed by "Better buy gold!" But I digress.
Granted Trump is not as decent a human being as the last, oh I don't know...44 presidents? But I think he understands where a move like that ends: complaining that the orange jumpsuit is itchy.
If the Pres. loses, he will step aside. I just don't understand why people believe some of the things they do. No matter what side of the isle you graze. A Civil war? Come on...... Let's hope not. I can guess who owns the great majority of the 393 million guns(estimated to be actually) 412 to 600 million guns in this country. Nope, don't want a Civil war. M Proclivities wrote:
islander wrote:
cc_rider wrote:
Okay, I have a question. What happens if, by some miracle, the Senate votes to remove Trump from office. What if he shouts/tweets 'Witch Hunt' and refuses to step down? Then what? Does the Senate Sergeant-at-Arms go to the White House and physically remove him? The Secret Service might take issue with that. As would many well-armed, MAGA hat-wearing supporters. Imagine thousands of people, assault-style rifles at the ready, ringing the White House.
By the same token, what if in 2020, Trump does not win the election, but cries 'Rigged Election' and refuses to step down in January? Same scenario. He just locks himself in the White House and refuses to come out. The true believers have already proven they are prepared, in fact hoping for, armed confrontation. Does Pennsylvania Avenue become a river of blood?
Who instructs the authorities to physically remove the President from office? For that matter, which authorities get the task: the military? DC Police? National Guard? Secret Service?
Is anybody else concerned this President could spark a civil war? c.
This is the one that I'm worried about. I think we are integrated enough that people will realize how bad a civil war would be and some rational solution would prevail. But I'm often wrong and even in my creative imagination I can't construct a scenario where people will come back to compromise and respect for differences. So I keep 800 gallons of diesel in my house and I know which way Canada is.
Of course, anything is possible, but I am not overly concerned about his being able to spark a civil war or uprising, especially in terms of American history (e.g. the Depression era, and 1968 seem like much more fertile times for such things) and I don't adhere to most of the Doomsday scenarios I've been hearing tossed about (there's a difference between being cynical and being pessimistic). When Obama took office there were even people here who went on about "imminent" class warfare and race riots, and especially how the recession economy was going to get "far. far worse" before it recovered - none of that happened (though thousands of people had their guns taken away and/or disappeared into FEMA Camps apparently). It's not a matter of realizing "how bad a civil war would be", most Americans seem too consumerized, indifferent, and indolent to even be involved in something inconvenient like a war - that would require a lot of conviction. Was there ever a time when Americans existed with "compromise and respect for differences"?
Of course, anything is possible, but I am not overly concerned about his being able to spark a civil war or uprising, especially in terms of American history (e.g. the Depression era, and 1968 seem like much more fertile times for such things) and I don't adhere to most of the Doomsday scenarios I've been hearing tossed about (there's a difference between being cynical and being pessimistic). When Obama took office there were even people here who went on about "imminent" class warfare and race riots, and especially how the recession economy was going to get "far. far worse" before it recovered - none of that happened (though thousands of people had their guns taken away and/or disappeared into FEMA Camps apparently). It's not a matter of realizing "how bad a civil war would be", most Americans seem too consumerized, indifferent, and indolent to even be involved in something inconvenient like a war - that would require a lot of conviction. Was there ever a time when Americans existed with "compromise and respect for differences"?
Too true. I'll put a flag sticker on my bumper, but dont mess with my 401k. (not to imply any of this is worth a civil war)
