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Impeachment Time: - steeler - Jan 25, 2020 - 7:48pm
 
What are you listening to now? - Steely_D - Jan 25, 2020 - 6:45pm
 
Things that make you cautiously optimistic - Steely_D - Jan 25, 2020 - 6:43pm
 
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Animal Resistance - cc_rider - Jan 24, 2020 - 9:15am
 
Recommended documentaries - cc_rider - Jan 24, 2020 - 9:05am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Jan 24, 2020 - 8:45am
 
Documentaries - Proclivities - Jan 24, 2020 - 6:39am
 
Florida - miamizsun - Jan 24, 2020 - 5:31am
 
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punk? hip-hop? metal? noise? garage? - Ohmsen - Jan 23, 2020 - 12:21pm
 
SFW & Gluttony Pants - Proclivities - Jan 23, 2020 - 9:23am
 
songs that ROCK! - sirdroseph - Jan 23, 2020 - 7:05am
 
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The Obituary Page - buddy - Jan 22, 2020 - 2:56pm
 
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A Sad Day, Indeed - ScottFromWyoming - Jan 22, 2020 - 7:09am
 
Goodnight everyone! - Proclivities - Jan 22, 2020 - 4:06am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - Egctheow - Jan 22, 2020 - 1:14am
 
Is there any DOG news out there? - BlueHeronDruid - Jan 21, 2020 - 11:33pm
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Jan 21, 2020 - 10:37pm
 
ONE WORD - buddy - Jan 21, 2020 - 9:24pm
 
Internet Addict?? - BlueHeronDruid - Jan 21, 2020 - 7:09pm
 
The Global War on Terror - R_P - Jan 21, 2020 - 3:54pm
 
What Did You See Today? - oldviolin - Jan 21, 2020 - 2:34pm
 
Tech & Science - R_P - Jan 21, 2020 - 2:26pm
 
A History of Violence - R_P - Jan 21, 2020 - 12:09pm
 
TWO WORDS - oldviolin - Jan 21, 2020 - 10:51am
 
Baseball, anyone? - kcar - Jan 21, 2020 - 7:52am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - buddy - Jan 21, 2020 - 7:38am
 
Classical Music - R_P - Jan 21, 2020 - 12:07am
 
Poetry Forum - ScottN - Jan 20, 2020 - 7:41pm
 
HALF A WORLD - oldviolin - Jan 20, 2020 - 6:34pm
 
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steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 7:48pm



 kurtster wrote:
Me ? Have credibility ? I have no credibility on anything here at RP. That has been clear for years and has been told to me repeatedly by most everyone here who regularly participates in these discussions. My point of view has no credibility let alone even the possibility of any legitimacy here. There is no tolerance here for my point of view. There are some who try to utter something about respect for me and some of my thoughts here now and then although it almost always comes with a but ... Until recently with a couple of newbies, I alone possess the point of view that I post here. I post here accordingly based upon that fact. Someone has to counter the misinformation posted in this echo chamber.

I see that we are going to disagree on what the whistleblower stated the call was about versus the transcript of the call.

Yovanovitch and Vindman were involved in actions against Trump. I do not have ready access to links to reinforce those thoughts. They are based upon observations over time. I do believe that Vindman if the first hand source of information for the whistleblower who btw is not Schiff. I have never heard Trump say that he thought Schiff was the whistleblower.

To explain Giuliani's role in this you would have to accept that there is a Deep State that requires separate back channels used by Trump. That is why foreign service officials responsible for Ukraine were not consulted. You do not believe in the existence of a Deep State situation let alone the possibility of one so trying to offer a fuller explanation is pointless imo. So I'm saving my breath as nothing I could offer would mean anything to you.
 

A little too heavy on the martyrdom. Your posts  suggest that you see others here as unwilling to be open-minded concerning your Trump views, but it seems to me you are the one unwilling  to be open-minded about views of Trump or his actions that differ from your own. The impeachment is an example.  You peg everything on your firm  belief that there is a Deep State that is out to get Trump and refuse to accept that it is even possible that Trump did in fact withhold defense aid and a White House meeting to coerce Zelensky to announce investigations of the Bidens and Ukraine interference in the 2016 election because that would be politically advantageous for him. Not even possible?  Being “involved in actions against Trump” means you are part of the Deep State? Any possibility Foreign Service officers like Yovanovich, Taylor, and Kent were acting in good faith and doing what they believed was their duty? 


The pursuit of this Deep State is like your White Whale. 

How far does it go? Do you believe — like Trump — that the DNC server is in Ukraine? 
 

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 7:21pm

 Steely_D wrote:
 KarmaKarma wrote:
And...snip... (soon!)
 
I think it's a worthy exercise for folks to notice now much of Trump's (and supporters') presentation consists of "It'll happen" or "Soon" or other such promises. He hasn't delivered on the major ones he ran on: wall paid for by Mexico, repeal replace Obamacare, etc. And all that was replaced with "X is gonna happen; you'll see!" The only stuff that's really happened is the use of his office to get more money for him and his family. That part's proven.

Same with the Qanon folks. Very little in retrospect has happened except some conincidental words said that mean something man, but the predictions don't come true - and yet his supports continue to believe in him so damn bad.

One more bottle will cure it! Guaranteed.

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 7:18pm



 kurtster wrote:
I see that we are going to disagree on what the whistleblower stated the call was about versus the transcript of the call.
 
I guess so, but not sure why. Here is what the whistleblower complaint states about the July 25 call. Seems to me the bullet points are factually accurate — completely.  I am sure Trump — and presumably you — would disagree with the conclusions that Trump used the call “to advance his personal interests” and “to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President’s 2020 re-election bid.” Or that a Trump “pressured” Zelensky. But the factual assertions in the bullet points are absolutely consistent with the rough transcript released by Trump. Unclear, then, why Trump keeps saying the whistleblower got everything wrong.


I. The 25 July Presidential phone call

Early in the morning of 25 July, the President spoke by telephone with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. I do not know which side initiated the call. This was the first publicly acknowledged call between the two leaders since a brief congratulatory call after Mr. Zelenskyy won the presidency on 21 April.

Multiple White House officials with direct knowledge of the call informed me that, after an initial exchange of pleasantries, the President used the remainder of the call to advance his personal interests. Namely, he sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President’s 2020 reelection bid. According to the White House officials who had direct knowledge of the call, the President pressured Mr. Zelenskyy to, inter alia:

  • initiate or continue an investigation2 into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden;
  • assist in purportedly uncovering that allegations of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election originated in Ukraine , with a specific request that the Ukrainian leader locate and turn over servers used by the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and examined by the U.S. cyber security firm Crowdstrike,3which initially reported that Russian hackers had penetrated the DNC’s networks in 2016; and
  • meet or speak with two people the President named explicitly as his personal envoys on these matters, Mr. Giuliani and Attorney General Barr, to whom the President referred multiple times in tandem.

kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 7:17pm

 Steely_D wrote:


I think it's a worthy exercise for folks to notice now much of Trump's (and supporters') presentation consists of "It'll happen" or "Soon" or other such promises. 
 
I haven't spoken in those terms in such a long time I cannot remember when the last time was.  I am sure someone here will remind me of the last time.

I try to primarily stick to dealing with the blatant misrepresentations of Trump and his actions.  And to provide updates on things like the progress of the investigations of things like the Carter Page FISA warrants and the progress of Durham and Barr. 

To try and do anything else here is foolish and a waste of time as no one I cannot think of anyone here will change their minds on these matters, ever.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 7:03pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:


And...snip... (soon!)
 

I think it's a worthy exercise for folks to notice now much of Trump's (and supporters') presentation consists of "It'll happen" or "Soon" or other such promises. He hasn't delivered on the major ones he ran on: wall paid for by Mexico, repeal replace Obamacare, etc. And all that was replaced with "X is gonna happen; you'll see!" The only stuff that's really happened is the use of his office to get more money for him and his family. That part's proven.

Same with the Qanon folks. Very little in retrospect has happened except some conincidental words said that mean something man, but the predictions don't come true - and yet his supports continue to believe in him so damn bad.
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 6:47pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
 
 

No one who supports the monstrosity that is Donnie has any credibility - don't take it personally.
 
You for one, have made it personal over and over again simply by the way you have expressed your thoughts on the subject.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 6:38pm



 kurtster wrote:
If the evidence presented by the House impeachment managers is "so overwhelming" then why do we need anymore witnesses and evidence ?
 
Or people that don't believe in the evidence?

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 6:38pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:


And after the fraudulent impeachment is tossed out (soon!), 
 
No. He's impeached for life. You're maybe thinking of something else?

KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:47pm



 Red_Dragon wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
 

No one who supports the monstrosity that is Donnie has any credibility - don't take it personally.
 

Any one who blindly supports the Democrat (or Republican) position on ANY topic is truly the very epitome of a useful idiot.  You might want to take a very careful look in the mirror. 

And after the fraudulent impeachment is tossed out (soon!), some in the deep state are charged and sentenced, and "Donnie" wins re-election in a near-landslide, with each of those losses to your party of preference, take another good look in the mirror as you wail to the heavens and commiserate with your TDS fellows that corruption is rampant.  Because that's the ONLY way all these things could occur - right?

Meanwhile, the capitalist and political segments (both parties!)  will be picking your pockets in various ways and gorging themselves on your hatred of Trump.  You have only yourself to blame.  One day you might acknowledge that.
R_P

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Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:24pm


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:13pm



 kurtster wrote:
 

No one who supports the monstrosity that is Donnie has any credibility - don't take it personally.
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:08pm

If the evidence presented by the House impeachment managers is "so overwhelming" then why do we need anymore witnesses and evidence ?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:05pm

 steeler wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

This is about defining the existing conspiracy that is being hidden in plain sight.

What the Carter Page FISA warrants have in common with the whistleblower is the same modus operandi.  Both situations used phony, fabricated testimony as a basis to launch investigations into Trump's organizations and activities. So far two of the four Page FISA warrants have been found to illegal based upon fabricated information.  The whistleblower's original assertions have also been found to be fabricated and baseless as well.

You may see no pattern of abuse or any similarities between the two.  I think that they are clear.

So do you believe that Adam Schiff has been forthcoming and honest in all of his actions to date ?

 
I must have missed this blockbuster news. Unless the proof of this statement has escaped my attention, this is wishful thinking on your part — and false.  Trump repeatedly says the whistleblower got everything wrong, but everything I have heard and read says the opposite. Plus, as I have said, the impeachment case is not relying upon the whistleblower. The evidence has come from others. You will need to rebut that evidence. Casting the whistleblower as the proverbial bogeyman does not do that. Your focus on him or her is misplaced.

As for the rest, no, I do not intend to debate with you how everything needs to be viewed as an overarching conspiracy to get Trump that now extends to career Foreign Service officers, like Yovanovitch, Taylor, Kent, etc.

Instead, if you remain steadfastly intent on defending Trump and wish to be seen as having credibility, you need to focus on answering some of the questions I have posed. For instance: if Trump was just holding up defense aid and a White House meeting for Zelensky as part of an anti-corruption policy in Ukraine — and not just trying to dig up dirt on the Bidens for his own political advantage — why was he using Giuliani as his point person, telling Zelensky during that July 25 call that he should talk to Rudy? Giuliani has repeatedly said that everything he has been doing is in his capacity as Trump’s personal attorney. His client is Trump, not the United States. And if this was part of an official policy, why was the reason for it not shared with DOD officials, who had announced the release of the aid and were taken by surprise? Why were Foreign Service officials responsible for Ukraine not consulted? Their expertise was not needed? And those are just a few of the questions I have.

Edit: As for Schiff, I — obviously — cannot vouch for everything he has said or done. That said, I am not aware of any dishonest actions on his part. I thought his “parody” of the July 25 call transcript was a strategic mistake that backfired on him. I imagine you are focusing on any communications he might have had with the whistleblower in advance of the filing of the whistleblower complaint. I believe he has acknowledged that a member of his committee staff had contact with the whistleblower but that he did not. I know Trump believes Schiff is the whistleblower— or at least Trump has thrown that out there. I do not believe that. Lastly, I thought Schiff did a very good job of lawyering in presenting the House case before the Senate.

 
Me ?  Have credibility ?  I have no credibility on anything here at RP.  That has been clear for years and has been told to me repeatedly by most everyone here who regularly participates in these discussions.  My point of view has no credibility let alone even the possibility of any legitimacy here.  There is no tolerance here for my point of view.  There are some who try to utter something about respect for me and some of my thoughts here now and then although it almost always comes with a but ...  Until recently with a couple of newbies, I alone possess the point of view that I post here.  I post here accordingly based upon that fact.  Someone has to counter the misinformation posted in this echo chamber. 

I see that we are going to disagree on what the whistleblower stated the call was about versus the transcript of the call.

Yovanovitch and Vindman were involved in actions against Trump.  I do not have ready access to links to reinforce those thoughts.  They are based upon observations over time.  I do believe that Vindman if the first hand source of information for the whistleblower who btw is not Schiff.  I have never heard Trump say that he thought Schiff was the whistleblower.

To explain Giuliani's role in this you would have to accept that there is a Deep State that requires separate back channels used by Trump.  That is why foreign service officials responsible for Ukraine were not consulted.  You do not believe in the existence of a Deep State situation let alone the possibility of one so trying to offer a fuller explanation is pointless imo.  So I'm saving my breath as nothing I could offer would mean anything to you.



steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 12:55pm



 kurtster wrote:

This is about defining the existing conspiracy that is being hidden in plain sight.

What the Carter Page FISA warrants have in common with the whistleblower is the same modus operandi.  Both situations used phony, fabricated testimony as a basis to launch investigations into Trump's organizations and activities. So far two of the four Page FISA warrants have been found to illegal based upon fabricated information.  The whistleblower's original assertions have also been found to be fabricated and baseless as well.

You may see no pattern of abuse or any similarities between the two.  I think that they are clear.

So do you believe that Adam Schiff has been forthcoming and honest in all of his actions to date ?

 
I must have missed this blockbuster news. Unless the proof of this statement has escaped my attention, this is wishful thinking on your part — and false.  Trump repeatedly says the whistleblower got everything wrong, but everything I have heard and read says the opposite. Plus, as I have said, the impeachment case is not relying upon the whistleblower. The evidence has come from others. You will need to rebut that evidence. Casting the whistleblower as the proverbial bogeyman does not do that. Your focus on him or her is misplaced.

As for the rest, no, I do not intend to debate with you how everything needs to be viewed as an overarching conspiracy to get Trump that now extends to career Foreign Service officers, like Yovanovitch, Taylor, Kent, etc.

Instead, if you remain steadfastly intent on defending Trump and wish to be seen as having credibility, you need to focus on answering some of the questions I have posed. For instance: if Trump was just holding up defense aid and a White House meeting for Zelensky as part of an anti-corruption policy in Ukraine — and not just trying to dig up dirt on the Bidens for his own political advantage — why was he using Giuliani as his point person, telling Zelensky during that July 25 call that he should talk to Rudy? Giuliani has repeatedly said that everything he has been doing is in his capacity as Trump’s personal attorney. His client is Trump, not the United States. And if this was part of an official policy, why was the reason for it not shared with DOD officials, who had announced the release of the aid and were taken by surprise? Why were Foreign Service officials responsible for Ukraine not consulted? Their expertise was not needed? And those are just a few of the questions I have.

Edit: As for Schiff, I — obviously — cannot vouch for everything he has said or done. That said, I am not aware of any dishonest actions on his part. I thought his “parody” of the July 25 call transcript was a strategic mistake that backfired on him. I imagine you are focusing on any communications he might have had with the whistleblower in advance of the filing of the whistleblower complaint. I believe he has acknowledged that a member of his committee staff had contact with the whistleblower but that he did not. I know Trump believes Schiff is the whistleblower— or at least Trump has thrown that out there. I do not believe that. Lastly, I thought Schiff did a very good job of lawyering in presenting the House case before the Senate.

hayduke2

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Location: Southampton, NY
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 8:24am

HOLY COW!!! What do you suppose the Conspiracy Gang plans to do to our Nation?!!!  Triple the National Debt while raking in Billiones for the Ultra Wealthy?! Leaving the majority of working people on the down side with monstrous medical bills while going off to play golf?!  Spewing hate-speech over their foreign-owned airwaves to create armed White Supremacist hordes???!!!  HOLY MAHOLEY!!! LETS ALL PUT OUR TIN FOIL CAPS ON (under our MAGA hats)
AND STOP THE RISEING INSURRECTION OF THE SHIFFSTER GANG!!!
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 6:50am

 steeler wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

Once again, Carter Page ...

And if your point is to be considered then why was Atkinson even interviewed in the context of the impeachment hearings in the first place ?
 
How does Carter Page  have anything to do with this impeachment case?

I think I know what your answer will be. I think I probably  set it forth in my last post. One giant conspiracy that is ever growing and changing shape like an amoeba?

 
This is about defining the existing conspiracy that is being hidden in plain sight.

What the Carter Page FISA warrants have in common with the whistleblower is the same modus operandi.  Both situations used phony, fabricated testimony as a basis to launch investigations into Trump's organizations and activities. So far two of the four Page FISA warrants have been found to illegal based upon fabricated information.  The whistleblower's original assertions have also been found to be fabricated and baseless as well.

You may see no pattern of abuse or any similarities between the two.  I think that they are clear.

So do you believe that Adam Schiff has been forthcoming and honest in all of his actions to date ?

hayduke2

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Location: Southampton, NY
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 25, 2020 - 5:11am

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-impeachment-evidence-will-catch-up-to-republicans-and-trump—whether-they-ignore-it-or-not/2020/01/24/c06e9246-3ec3-11ea-8872-5df698785a4e_story.html
n
ot FOX news for buttheads
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 24, 2020 - 9:27pm



 kurtster wrote:

Once again, Carter Page ...

And if your point is to be considered then why was Atkinson even interviewed in the context of the impeachment hearings in the first place ?
 
How does Carter Page  have anything to do with this impeachment case?

I think I know what your answer will be. I think I probably  set it forth in my last post. One giant conspiracy that is ever growing and changing shape like an amoeba?



steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jan 24, 2020 - 9:24pm



 kurtster wrote:
The whistleblower was the precipitory event for the inquiry.

We don't know what we don't know. So much for transparency.

Same as the Carter FISA warrants in my mind. Fruits of the poisonous tree.
 
Responding to your expanded version:

I see. You want this to be part of this theory that there is an overarching conspiracy to get Trump and everything should be viewed through that prism.

Even if it were shown that the whistleblower was politically motivated in making the complaint, that does not mean that the evidence elicited by the House in its investigation is false. This is not fruit of the poisonous tree.

kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 24, 2020 - 9:17pm

 steeler wrote:

The origins of the whistleblower complaint and the identity of the whistleblower are red herrings — for the legal case.
 
Once again, Carter Page ...

And if your point is to be considered then why was Atkinson even interviewed in the context of the impeachment hearings in the first place ?
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