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ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 8:20pm



 Prodigal_SOB wrote:

  The drugs weren't widely available until the 60s or 70s and probably didn't make their way into baseball significantly until the mid 80s.   MLB banned them in 1991, but did no testing whatsoever until 2003.  The IOC banned them in 1968.  The Russians were a little bit ahead of the curve.
 

What most players in this century are guilty of, though, is repair. In some cases (McGwire), they were using drugs to recover from too-intense workouts that enabled them to be freakishly strong. Stronger than they would have been on a normal workout schedule. So: performance enhancing. But there was a whole 'nother crop of stars (Pettitte, and I think Clemens), who used the drugs to come back from or protect against injury, extend their careers, but any individual game, no reason to say they got an edge. They just played in more games than they would have if it hadn't been for the ability to bounce back from injury.

Just like Tommy John.

Malcolm Gladwell did a piece on this, and it's pretty compelling.
success

success Avatar



Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 1:58pm

Sure
Coaxial

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Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 12:21pm

 zevon wrote:

This all started a few years back when both the Sox and Yanks had Apple smart watches in the dugout doing something nefarious. That is when Manfred put rules in place against tech. I figure others are likely doing it too, but are smart enough about it not to get caught. Does make me wonder if Gardner's recent affection for banging a bat on the dugout roof was more than it appeared to be.
I saw a report that some Astros players said there were 8 teams they could name - they really probably need to be quiet so they don't have a lifetime of fastballs to the ribs.
Ah, for the old days. If Nolan Ryan (and many others) knew you were stealing signs that's exactly what you'd get. And there would be no warnings by the umps. And then he'd beat the crap out of ya if you charged the mound. {#Lol}
 
One of the best fights on the mound ever...The mound pounding.{#Lol}
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 12:15pm

 Coaxial wrote:

Too bad, the stink will be with him forever.
 
This all started a few years back when both the Sox and Yanks had Apple smart watches in the dugout doing something nefarious. That is when Manfred put rules in place against tech. I figure others are likely doing it too, but are smart enough about it not to get caught. Does make me wonder if Gardner's recent affection for banging a bat on the dugout roof was more than it appeared to be.
I saw a report that some Astros players said there were 8 teams they could name - they really probably need to be quiet so they don't have a lifetime of fastballs to the ribs.
Ah, for the old days. If Nolan Ryan (and many others) knew you were stealing signs that's exactly what you'd get. And there would be no warnings by the umps. And then he'd beat the crap out of ya if you charged the mound. {#Lol}
Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 11:17am

 zevon wrote:

So now we have 3 teams needing a manager with less than a month until pitchers and catchers... 
 
Too bad, the stink will be with him forever.
Prodigal_SOB

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Location: Back Home Again in Indiana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 11:03am

 zevon wrote:
When PED were first being used I don't believe there was any rule against them, or maybe they weren't illegal at the time, or something...That's if I recall correctly, and my memory ain't what it used to be. Penalizing someone for something that wasn't against the rules at the time is ludicrous.
 
  The drugs weren't widely available until the 60s or 70s and probably didn't make their way into baseball significantly until the mid 80s.   MLB banned them in 1991, but did no testing whatsoever until 2003.  The IOC banned them in 1968.  The Russians were a little bit ahead of the curve.
Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:31am



 zevon wrote:

When PED were first being used I don't believe there was any rule against them, or maybe they weren't illegal at the time, or something...That's if I recall correctly, and my memory ain't what it used to be. Penalizing someone for something that wasn't against the rules at the time is ludicrous.

 
I think steroids were first banned by MLB in the early '90s but they didn't start testing players for them until about 10 years later  (IIRC - my memory is a little rough these days too).  I vaguely remember reading an article years ago about how a lot of players (even big names Like Schmidt and Gossage) frequently used amphetamines before games, and that it was a pretty common practice throughout the league for road games and to fight jet-lag, etc.

zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:19am

 Prodigal_SOB wrote:

I've gotten some flack for saying it here before, but I've never seen the players as the real villains in the PED era.   I've always felt that the commissioner's office and players union maintaining the system that encouraged it are far more culpable.  If you're going to put Bud Selig in the hall then there is no excuse for keeping Bonds, Clemens and the others out.  
 
When PED were first being used I don't believe there was any rule against them, or maybe they weren't illegal at the time, or something...That's if I recall correctly, and my memory ain't what it used to be. Penalizing someone for something that wasn't against the rules at the time is ludicrous.

ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:18am



 zevon wrote:

So now we have 3 teams needing a manager with less than a month until pitchers and catchers... 
 

Now we'll really see how much effect a field manager has now that Sabermetrics is the real manager. 
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:15am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Beltrán's out.
 
So now we have 3 teams needing a manager with less than a month until pitchers and catchers... 
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:14am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 zevon wrote:

No argument here. He’s way past paying his penance. Looks like Bonds has a shot at getting in this year, maybe Clemens, Schilling is in the mix. All have warts, some more than others. Based on their careers, at least Bonds and Clemens are no brainers. If voters are willing to overlook the warts for these two then they have to reconsider Pete. It’s a travesty he isn’t in. 
 
Pete never came clean about what he did though. Until he was drawing social security, anyway. A little groveling would have swept it all away. Not in his nature, of course.

 
Exactly. He would have been forgiven and in the HOF 20 years ago if he simply apologized. Rockhead.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 10:13am

Beltrán's out.
Prodigal_SOB

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Location: Back Home Again in Indiana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 8:41am

 zevon wrote:

No argument here. He’s way past paying his penance. Looks like Bonds has a shot at getting in this year, maybe Clemens, Schilling is in the mix. All have warts, some more than others. Based on their careers, at least Bonds and Clemens are no brainers. If voters are willing to overlook the warts for these two then they have to reconsider Pete. It’s a travesty he isn’t in. 
 
I've gotten some flack for saying it here before, but I've never seen the players as the real villains in the PED era.   I've always felt that the commissioner's office and players union maintaining the system that encouraged it are far more culpable.  If you're going to put Bud Selig in the hall then there is no excuse for keeping Bonds, Clemens and the others out.  
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 8:04am



 zevon wrote:

No argument here. He’s way past paying his penance. Looks like Bonds has a shot at getting in this year, maybe Clemens, Schilling is in the mix. All have warts, some more than others. Based on their careers, at least Bonds and Clemens are no brainers. If voters are willing to overlook the warts for these two then they have to reconsider Pete. It’s a travesty he isn’t in. 
 
Pete never came clean about what he did though. Until he was drawing social security, anyway. A little groveling would have swept it all away. Not in his nature, of course.

Coaxial

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Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 6:09am

 zevon wrote:

MLB offered immunity to players who were truthful. According to a couple reports from “experts”, the Mets are mulling over whether they really want to keep him though. One comment I saw was priceless - “What could be worse punishment than having to coach the Mets?” {#Cool}
 
That's gold for sure...Saw Cora fessed up. Crazy.
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 6:05am

 Coaxial wrote:

Like Scott said he was one of the gang when he was flashing the signals to the batters so he's golden, maybe.
 
MLB offered immunity to players who were truthful. According to a couple reports from “experts”, the Mets are mulling over whether they really want to keep him though. One comment I saw was priceless - “What could be worse punishment than having to coach the Mets?” {#Cool}
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 16, 2020 - 6:02am

 Coaxial wrote:

I can think of a bunch they could remove from the hall to find room for this F-n guy, Charlie frickin' Hustle. In the words of ManBirdio...Come on!
 
No argument here. He’s way past paying his penance. Looks like Bonds has a shot at getting in this year, maybe Clemens, Schilling is in the mix. All have warts, some more than others. Based on their careers, at least Bonds and Clemens are no brainers. If voters are willing to overlook the warts for these two then they have to reconsider Pete. It’s a travesty he isn’t in. 
zevon

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Location: Red Sox Nation.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2020 - 5:41pm

 Coaxial wrote:

Like Scott said he was one of the gang when he was flashing the signals to the batters so he's golden, maybe.
 
Yes, but he’s a manager now. We’ll see.
 
Coaxial

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Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2020 - 6:33am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 zevon wrote:

Yeah, couldn’t see that coming LOL. I imagine they’ll be looking at Beltran next. 
 

They seem to be saying that he was a player not a coach, and they're drawing a line there. Meanwhile, someone in Vegas says "can I have a one-year suspension?"
 
 
I can think of a bunch they could remove from the hall to find room for this F-n guy, Charlie frickin' Hustle. In the words of ManBirdio...Come on!
Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543 miles west of Paradis,1491 miles eas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 15, 2020 - 6:23am

 zevon wrote:

Yeah, couldn’t see that coming LOL. I imagine they’ll be looking at Beltran next. 
 
Like Scott said he was one of the gang when he was flashing the signals to the batters so he's golden, maybe.
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