NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Nope, you swallow the US (hegemonic) line along with the hook and sinker. And the rod if you could.

 R_P wrote:

sigh,   and again not what I said. You are trying to tie me to US realpolitik.  The "he may be a sonnabitch but he's our sonnabitch" side of US foreign policy. That's not my calling. Surprisingly, I am free to criticise all three great powers at the same time. Marvellous isn't it? One of the benefits of pluralism, they don't lock you up when you criticise the government.

And no, I strongly disagree that it is "ultimately always about economic interests, for all parties involved." Though it is becoming clearer by the day, that ultimately you see things through this prism and therefore have no problem relativizing the various horrors of your regime of choice. 

But if you throw out values for a purely economic-driven model, what do you have left? Not much I would argue. It kind of leaves you as hollow and vacuous as the German government kowtowing to China each time there is a state visit or selling out its gas industry to Gazprom and inviting. Russian spies into the highest level of government out of some weird combination of Schuldgefühl and modern-day appeasement, with a dash of making a quick personal monetary gain.

No, I'm more the Lithuanian kind of guy.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
It makes your crusader rhetoric against "authoritarianism" hollow and self-serving. It's ultimately always about economic interests. For all parties involved.

 R_P wrote:

That's not what I said either.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
That's what it means. Though there are exceptions to the rule. See the dictators armed and supported by The West.

 R_P wrote:

That's not what I said.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
You can abuse power as long as you're "democratic." Yum-yum.

 R_P wrote:

Oh, I am not excusing any of the abuses of power that the US have been guilty of since WWII nor am I saying that the US is a paragon of accountability. All I am saying is that of the three, the US has the most accountability.  Paradoxically, Trump is perfect proof that democracy is actually alive and kicking in the US. You can't say that about either Russia or China.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Sounds like special pleading and another gratuitous rim-job.

 R_P wrote:

Why, thank you. Now for my next act.. let's talk about your blithe disdain for the plight of the Uighurs but foaming-at-the-mouth outrage about the plight of the Palestinians. Shall we go on? 

.. maybe not. The point stands, you are only outraged when you can blame it on the U.S. If it is Russia or China, you turn a blind eye. Yet of the great powers, the U.S. is the one with the most accountability. Ergo your true target is not the source of moral outrage, but the accountability for it.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Bravo! Hubris too.

 R_P wrote:
Well, you are pulling precious little left out of yours, FWIW.

re the NATO expansion hypothesis:
the timeline simply doesn't fit. 
Firstly, NATO already had a direct border with Russia.
Secondly, the Cuban missile analogy has been obsolete ever since the advent of nuclear submarines.
Thirdly, Putin himself has repeatedly asserted the goal is to recreate the Soviet empire, so this is obviously not about self-defence but hegemony, a position reiterated every night on Russian state TV.
Fourthly, Russia's recent wars of aggression march across the map from east to west  Chechnya, Georgia, Aleppo, Crimea, rest of Ukraine
Fifthly, the Maiden uprising was followed by Belarus electing a non-Russian-puppet government, which was put down by force, followed shortly thereafter by the full blown attack on Ukraine.

It is not NATO that freaks out Putin, it is the fear of losing control over his own country in the face of spreading western pluralism that freaks him out. 

And finally, if you really think that NATO was seriously behind this, then it has done a spectacularly bad job of it. I mean not arming your vassals for a full six months while they fight the supposed demon, is one thing, something that one could possibly ascribe to MAGA, but from the get go, the west has gone to enormous lengths to hamstring its own response. Were they truly the aggressor here, they wouldn't have done that. 

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Denial as well as a self-serving "Putin Versteher?" Nope, NATO was warned...

You pull too much right out of your backside.

And that includes prescribing "the only credible argument." Hubris to the end.

 R_P wrote:
That's not hysteria. That is what the Russian regime itself is saying. Tone from the top and all that. 
Hang on, weren't you also on the "Russia is not going to invade bandwagon" pre February 2022?

You know R_P, the only credible argument to raise against western pluralism that progressives have is that western  pluralism is hollow, democracy a charade and that all media are in the hands in of the ruling elite who are milking the system to their own advantage and to the detriment of everyone else. 
It's not an argument I agree with but it is an argument that has certain merits and is logically consistent with what one would commonly understand under the term "progressive".

But when you then hold up the most despotic regimes and one-party states as the preferred alternative, then I can't help but call foul. 

The necessary conclusion is that iIt's not democracy or pluralism you are after. What is it then? 

Maybe  you are mourning the demise of the Dutch empire? I mean some country somewhere must offer the holy grail of autocracy and  true one party rule..  Maybe it's China? 
Face it. At heart you actually are a reactionary and philosophically very close to ThisBody who also mourns the certainty of monarchy to resolve the inherent messiness of democracy.
That's not progressive. That's regressive.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
The obvious hysteria suggests otherwise: "the suitcases are ready" because "it won't be long before the Russians invade Germany again!!!1!!". Heil NATO! Mildly paraphrased.

I'm not Sinophobic either because I like Chinese food...

 R_P wrote:
Richard the Reactionary fires another salvo!!

for the record, I'm not Russophobic in the slightest. There is a ton of Russian literature and music that I love.. I have no problem with Russia.
No, I'm just phobic towards autocratic regimes that turn toxic, which seems to be quite prevalent in regimes that feel no accountability to anyone but themselves.  

Recommended reading for befuddled progressives 

Russophobic "centrist" cheerleader for (yet another failing) war shoots the messenger. TL;DR x 2.

Sounds a lot like Trump fulminating against "the leftist marxist radicals." Onward to China!

 R_P wrote:

To be taken with a hefty grain of salt.

Always find it amusing to see these progressive types get so absorbed by their hatred of US hegemony that they end up plugging away for what is ultimately the restoration of feudalism, to the point of pushing MAGA narratives.  Hunter Biden! Burisma! Democratic interference in US elections.! Blah blah blah.

There is an old Soviet joke:
Who is a communist? Someone who has read the works of Marx.
And who is an anti-communist? Someone who has read the works of Marx and understood it.

"Progressive" voices, like Maté (and there are a lot here in Germany too)  are great examples of this confusion. They ultimately end up denying Ukrainian agency, whitewash Russian imperialism and its war crimes and seek to blame the whole thing on US machinations, thereby ignoring the bigger picture, namely that there is a fundamental historic trend away from autocratic states because they generally fail to give the people the freedoms they want, be it in Ukraine, Georgia, Iran, etc. 

They think they are "Marxist" or at least "progressive" but don't seem to have understood what that means. They are anti-capitalist but overlook the fact that capitalism was/is a necessary step towards more advanced social organisation, at least according to Marx, if you are into that sort of thing, and has also been the cause of the most amazing increase in wealth and well-being that the world has ever seen. 

Marx himself said that class consciousness can only evolve from the historic progression from feudalism, through the bourgeoisie and capitalism towards class consciousness, yet here we have all these people who openly call themselves "left-wing" and "progressive" trying to push history into reverse, avoiding capitalism by embracing feudal rule and serfdom.  Kind of loopy if you ask me.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand. Maybe we just forget Marx and these confused progressives marching in lockstep into the past and simply ask the people themselves what they want:

Ukraine
Georgia
Belarus

Looks pretty clear to me. Even Belarus, which has the closest ties to Russia, wants no part of its imperialist war. And if it didn't have a rabid bully breathing down its neck, I'm pretty sure they too would join the EU.

 haresfur wrote:
TL;DR?

 R_P wrote:

What have 100 years of Russian meddling in Ukraine wrought? Spoiler Alert not democracy for the areas they control

It is the lack of "meddling by Obama and W Europe when Russia annexed Crimea that was the biggest blow to democracy.

Your revisionist history is tiresome