[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

Get the Money out of Politics! - R_P - Apr 20, 2021 - 11:43am
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Apr 20, 2021 - 11:19am
 
Looting & vandalism isn't protest - westslope - Apr 20, 2021 - 11:15am
 
Philosophy (Meaty Metaphysical Munchables!) - sirdroseph - Apr 20, 2021 - 10:40am
 
Songs you hear too often on RP - Ohmsen - Apr 20, 2021 - 10:39am
 
COVID-19 - black321 - Apr 20, 2021 - 10:13am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - black321 - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:52am
 
New Music - R_P - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:48am
 
Name My Band - Ohmsen - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:47am
 
What makes you smile? - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:37am
 
Things You Thought Today - GeneP59 - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:29am
 
Look what's going on in New York - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 20, 2021 - 9:28am
 
Those Lovable Policemen - sirdroseph - Apr 20, 2021 - 8:59am
 
Terrorist Watch! - sirdroseph - Apr 20, 2021 - 8:33am
 
Race in America - sirdroseph - Apr 20, 2021 - 5:41am
 
Thought For The Day - sirdroseph - Apr 20, 2021 - 5:02am
 
Automotive Lust - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 9:31pm
 
When Ethnic Music travels to different Countries - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 9:02pm
 
The forbidden music - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:58pm
 
Is it wrong to not want to listen to music I don't unders... - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:52pm
 
The Rpeeps Favorite Triangle player list - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:45pm
 
music that makes you dance with big wavy gestures - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:41pm
 
Electronic Music - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:35pm
 
Listeners' Bands and Music Projects - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:30pm
 
Long Songs - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:21pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - geoff_morphini - Apr 19, 2021 - 6:41pm
 
Mars Exploration Rover Mission Status - miamizsun - Apr 19, 2021 - 4:00pm
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - haresfur - Apr 19, 2021 - 3:40pm
 
Rewind the Cache - ScottFromWyoming - Apr 19, 2021 - 11:37am
 
In My Room - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 10:51am
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - Manbird - Apr 19, 2021 - 10:42am
 
Evolution! - R_P - Apr 19, 2021 - 10:31am
 
Russia - sirdroseph - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:54am
 
Afghanistan - R_P - Apr 19, 2021 - 8:43am
 
Tech & Science - miamizsun - Apr 19, 2021 - 7:48am
 
Movie Recommendation - rhahl - Apr 19, 2021 - 7:42am
 
Sweet horrible irony. - sirdroseph - Apr 19, 2021 - 6:31am
 
Biden's Lies - VV - Apr 19, 2021 - 6:26am
 
Media Bias - sirdroseph - Apr 19, 2021 - 5:12am
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - sirdroseph - Apr 19, 2021 - 3:35am
 
Air Travel Blues - Manbird - Apr 18, 2021 - 11:45pm
 
Immigration - haresfur - Apr 18, 2021 - 6:06pm
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - R_P - Apr 18, 2021 - 3:50pm
 
Crazy conspiracy theories - R_P - Apr 18, 2021 - 1:26pm
 
Today in History - GeneP59 - Apr 18, 2021 - 10:32am
 
Baseball, anyone? - GeneP59 - Apr 18, 2021 - 10:20am
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - oldviolin - Apr 17, 2021 - 7:15pm
 
Trump - westslope - Apr 17, 2021 - 3:47pm
 
All Dogs Go To Heaven - Dog Pix - Antigone - Apr 17, 2021 - 2:09pm
 
Jazz - rhahl - Apr 17, 2021 - 1:15pm
 
Radiohead - R_P - Apr 17, 2021 - 10:25am
 
Vocabulary Quiz - rhahl - Apr 17, 2021 - 10:08am
 
The Netherlands - second - StefanFlos - Apr 17, 2021 - 8:46am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - pilgrim - Apr 17, 2021 - 7:45am
 
What the hell OV? - miamizsun - Apr 17, 2021 - 7:33am
 
Solar / Wind / Geothermal / Efficiency Energy - rhahl - Apr 17, 2021 - 7:19am
 
MQA Stream Coming to BLUOS - kd4ylq - Apr 17, 2021 - 7:02am
 
Those lovable acronym guys & gals - R_P - Apr 16, 2021 - 2:59pm
 
Outstanding Covers - rhahl - Apr 16, 2021 - 2:35pm
 
volcano! - KurtfromLaQuinta - Apr 16, 2021 - 12:15pm
 
RightWingNutZ - Red_Dragon - Apr 16, 2021 - 12:03pm
 
Amazing art - R_P - Apr 16, 2021 - 12:02pm
 
Guns - R_P - Apr 16, 2021 - 9:46am
 
what the hell, miamizsun? - oldviolin - Apr 16, 2021 - 9:30am
 
Ask an Atheist - black321 - Apr 16, 2021 - 9:25am
 
HALF A WORLD - oldviolin - Apr 16, 2021 - 9:22am
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - oldviolin - Apr 16, 2021 - 8:33am
 
Ask the Libertarian - sirdroseph - Apr 16, 2021 - 8:33am
 
Be a Music Critic! - Proclivities - Apr 16, 2021 - 6:35am
 
• • •  What's For Dinner ? • • •  - GeneP59 - Apr 15, 2021 - 3:31pm
 
Magic Eye optical Illusions - KurtfromLaQuinta - Apr 15, 2021 - 2:14pm
 
Back to the 60's - KurtfromLaQuinta - Apr 15, 2021 - 1:57pm
 
Poetry Forum - oldviolin - Apr 15, 2021 - 9:49am
 
Bad Poetry - oldviolin - Apr 15, 2021 - 9:28am
 
That's good advice - rhahl - Apr 15, 2021 - 6:47am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Biden's Lies Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16  Next
Post to this Topic
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 19, 2021 - 6:26am

 kcar wrote:


You are really struggling here. 

"Yes, these American citizens, the small business owners, their families and their employees who have been forced out of business by strict Covid protocols that those coming into the country illegally are not subject to for openers. These are real victims with faces and names. People of all colors and religions who are also American citizens. We citizens activities are restricted by Covid, yet the illegally present non citizens in this country are not."


Detained illegal immigrants are separated from the general US population and do not threaten to infect the general US population with Covid. Such immigrants are treated for Covid as much as US govt. resources allow. They are vaccinated against Covid as well. They are asked about their vaccination history for other diseases as well and are vaccinated for those diseases while detained if the need arises. 

This is CDC policy (which AFAICT ICE violated under Trump). It is the humane and practical thing to do. The current surge of immigrants has overwhelmed US detainment facilities and caused serious overcrowding. Under those conditions, transmission of Covid AND other diseases is a lot easier. Treating and vaccinating immigrants detained in the US helps prevent the spread of infectious diseases in this country. 

Detained immigrants, once released into the general population, are going to face the same Covid-related restrictions that American citizens face. For instance, immigrants and US citizens will have to wear a mask to shop in a grocery store. Illegal immigrants are not puttin' on the Ritz mask-free, Kurt. 


"In San Diego for example, teachers have been given offers to teach detained non citizen children in person while their American citizen regular students sit stuck at home on Zoom because their teachers won't come back to in person teaching in the classroom because they are afraid for their lives of getting infected by Covid."

That's in San Diego—one city. The city offered the option of teaching detained immigrant children in person to volunteers among teachers. The city is not forcing teachers to teach detained children, online or in person. So this awful, awful activity you condemn is being done with the blessing of the city government and the free will of some teachers. This NY Post piece states that 15 teachers were teaching at the San Diego Convention Center. 

A quick googling suggests that the population of kids detained in the San Diego Convention Center was around 700 in late March. I have no idea whether this situation is still going on, but the articles I've glanced at state that the call for volunteers went out when American students were on spring break. 

Not a big deal unless you're a professional victim of Culture Wars. 

"Your position demeans the notion and value of being a citizen of this country. You put non citizens ahead of citizens by your looking the other way and supporting these open borders. You knowingly voted for open borders when you voted for Biden. There was no bait and switch."


I had very little interest in Biden's position on immigration when I voted for him. I'm not sure that issue was on my top-ten list. Biden is not for open borders. Look at all the heat he took for suggesting he'd limit immigration to 15,000 people per year. 

The US is still struggling through a pandemic. 500,000+ Americans have died. (BTW, epidemiologists have estimated that only 100,000 would have died if the Trump administration had worked more quickly and competently to contain Covid.) The problems that Covid present are going to intersect with other American problems, like illegal immigration. The Biden administration and the US states are working through the problems—some new, some just aggravated—that the combination of Covid and a surge of illegal immigration have created. 

What are you proposing the US should do instead, Kurt? Gas the illegals with Zyklon B? Herd them into camps to die on their own? Send them to Mexico? Actually you can't do the last option 'cause Mexico says it's running of room. 


"That is it for the last time. Myself and others have been trying to make this point for since this Covid began. You and others have steadfastly refused to acknowledge this as a legitimate concern the entire time. And persistently continue to ignore this legitimate concern of many, many people."


Frankly, I don't recall seeing your complaints about Covid and illegal immigrants spreading Covid and/or living it up while good 'Muricans hunker down and mask up. Frankly, this strikes me as a new honk for you. 


"You won't even allow the distinction to be made between legal and illegal immigration. And anyone who tries, you call them an anti immigrant, racist, bigoted xenophobe."

I'm not preventing you from the making the distinction between il/legals. I do think you're anti-immigrant, even regarding legal immigrants. I do think you're a bigot and I think it's quite possible that you are a xenophobe. We'll leave racism for another day. 

I think it's quite possible to have an informed and level-headed opinion in favor of discouraging illegal immigration but I don't recall ever encountering such a view while reading your posts. 

I also think your anger over illegal immigration into this US is overblown concerning the limited impact this activity has on the normal functioning of the United States. 







"I do think you're anti-immigrant, even regarding legal immigrants. I do think you're a bigot and I think it's quite possible that you are a xenophobe. We'll leave racism for another day."



At the risk of being rude... 
 
...Thanks, Captain Obvious.   


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 19, 2021 - 12:25am

 kurtster wrote:


You are really struggling here. 

"Yes, these American citizens, the small business owners, their families and their employees who have been forced out of business by strict Covid protocols that those coming into the country illegally are not subject to for openers. These are real victims with faces and names. People of all colors and religions who are also American citizens. We citizens activities are restricted by Covid, yet the illegally present non citizens in this country are not."


Detained illegal immigrants are separated from the general US population and do not threaten to infect the general US population with Covid. Such immigrants are treated for Covid as much as US govt. resources allow. They are vaccinated against Covid as well. They are asked about their vaccination history for other diseases as well and are vaccinated for those diseases while detained if the need arises. 

This is CDC policy (which AFAICT ICE violated under Trump). It is the humane and practical thing to do. The current surge of immigrants has overwhelmed US detainment facilities and caused serious overcrowding. Under those conditions, transmission of Covid AND other diseases is a lot easier. Treating and vaccinating immigrants detained in the US helps prevent the spread of infectious diseases in this country. 

Detained immigrants, once released into the general population, are going to face the same Covid-related restrictions that American citizens face. For instance, immigrants and US citizens will have to wear a mask to shop in a grocery store. Illegal immigrants are not puttin' on the Ritz mask-free, Kurt. 


"In San Diego for example, teachers have been given offers to teach detained non citizen children in person while their American citizen regular students sit stuck at home on Zoom because their teachers won't come back to in person teaching in the classroom because they are afraid for their lives of getting infected by Covid."

That's in San Diego—one city. The city offered the option of teaching detained immigrant children in person to volunteers among teachers. The city is not forcing teachers to teach detained children, online or in person. So this awful, awful activity you condemn is being done with the blessing of the city government and the free will of some teachers. This NY Post piece states that 15 teachers were teaching at the San Diego Convention Center. 

A quick googling suggests that the population of kids detained in the San Diego Convention Center was around 700 in late March. I have no idea whether this situation is still going on, but the articles I've glanced at state that the call for volunteers went out when American students were on spring break. 

Not a big deal unless you're a professional victim of Culture Wars. 

"Your position demeans the notion and value of being a citizen of this country. You put non citizens ahead of citizens by your looking the other way and supporting these open borders. You knowingly voted for open borders when you voted for Biden. There was no bait and switch."


I had very little interest in Biden's position on immigration when I voted for him. I'm not sure that issue was on my top-ten list. Biden is not for open borders. Look at all the heat he took for suggesting he'd limit immigration to 15,000 people per year. 

The US is still struggling through a pandemic. 500,000+ Americans have died. (BTW, epidemiologists have estimated that only 100,000 would have died if the Trump administration had worked more quickly and competently to contain Covid.) The problems that Covid present are going to intersect with other American problems, like illegal immigration. The Biden administration and the US states are working through the problems—some new, some just aggravated—that the combination of Covid and a surge of illegal immigration have created. 

What are you proposing the US should do instead, Kurt? Gas the illegals with Zyklon B? Herd them into camps to die on their own? Send them to Mexico? Actually you can't do the last option 'cause Mexico says it's running of room. 


"That is it for the last time. Myself and others have been trying to make this point for since this Covid began. You and others have steadfastly refused to acknowledge this as a legitimate concern the entire time. And persistently continue to ignore this legitimate concern of many, many people."


Frankly, I don't recall seeing your complaints about Covid and illegal immigrants spreading Covid and/or living it up while good 'Muricans hunker down and mask up. Frankly, this strikes me as a new honk for you. 


"You won't even allow the distinction to be made between legal and illegal immigration. And anyone who tries, you call them an anti immigrant, racist, bigoted xenophobe."

I'm not preventing you from the making the distinction between il/legals. I do think you're anti-immigrant, even regarding legal immigrants. I do think you're a bigot and I think it's quite possible that you are a xenophobe. We'll leave racism for another day. 

I think it's quite possible to have an informed and level-headed opinion in favor of discouraging illegal immigration but I don't recall ever encountering such a view while reading your posts. 

I also think your anger over illegal immigration into this US is overblown concerning the limited impact this activity has on the normal functioning of the United States. 





kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 11:07pm

 kcar wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I have only spoken in terms of citizen and non citizen.  This discussion is (or was) about how American citizens are getting the short end of the stick because of the actions of non citizens.

You keep saying refugees.  So what you are saying is that everyone coming across our border illegally is a refugee ?  I see.

Continue on without me then.

  

I post this reply while acknowledging the risk that its appearance might detain you here...

"This discussion is (or was) about how American citizens are getting the short end of the stick because of the actions of non citizens."

Ah yes, The Victims Club. Kurtster, president of a local chapter. 

Maybe I'm blissfully ignorant but I don't see that immigrants/refugees/illegals/whathaveyous at our borders are getting the long end of the stick when compared to American citizens. We've talked about immigrants' crime rates in the US, payments of US taxes, presence in job markets, draws upon social services, etc. I can't recall seeing evidence that immigrants are a significant and lasting drain on the US. I can't recall seeing evidence posted by you that supports your long/short end of the stick claims. 

You're talking about a handful of people relative to a population of around 330 million Americans. Illegal immigrants in the US accounted for around 4% of the general population in 2007. Illegal immigrants in the US dropped to around 3.2% of the population since. 

https://www.brookings.edu/poli...

https://www.pewresearch.org/fa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

How are American citizens being deprived by the presence of such a small group?
One final thought: at one point you were complaining that Chuck, Nancy and the Blue Meanies were tolerating/welcoming immigration from Central and South America because it would increase the number of people voting for Democrats because (your assumption AFAICT, perhaps borrowed from Hannity or Limbaugh) people immigrating from those regions all vote for Democrats. Take a look at how Latinos in FL and TX helped deliver those states to Trump in the last election. Latino and Hispanic voters are not a monolithically blue bloc. 
 
This is the post that I am discussing, and have been all along.
 sirdroseph wrote:

Unsatisfactory answer when you see the conditions and circumstances of the refugees and immigrants at the border where  they came from and the logistics of their travels and protocols.  You cannot tell me that tourist who are almost all upper income (I sure as hell  cannot afford to travel internationally) have the resources and education to be able to properly social distance, be tested, get vaccinated and so forth and are subject to these strict protocols of air travel present anywhere near the danger to the general public as refugees.

...

How would you explain to all of those people that have sacrificed their entire livelihoods and business at the altar of public safety why these refugees should be allowed to freely enter the country in these times.   Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen?   American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.
 
 

Yes, these American citizens, the small business owners, their families and their employees who have been forced out of business by strict Covid protocols that those coming into the country illegally are not subject to for openers.  These are real victims with faces and names.  People of all colors and religions who are also American citizens.  We citizens activities are restricted by Covid, yet the illegally present non citizens in this country are not.

In San Diego for example, teachers have been given offers to teach detained non citizen children in person while their American citizen regular students sit stuck at home on Zoom because their teachers won't come back to in person teaching in the classroom.  They are afraid for their lives of getting infected by Covid if they return to in person teaching of America children.  Yet they are indeed teaching in person to these migrant children putting them ahead of their actual American citizen students.  There is some kind of not funny going on with these teachers and their unions.

Your position demeans the notion and value of being a citizen of this country.  You put non citizens ahead of citizens by your looking the other way and supporting these open borders.  You knowingly voted for open borders when you voted for Biden.  There was no bait and switch. 

Either Covid is a clear and present danger requiring extreme measures to combat it or it is not.  By taking the open borders position you are saying that Covid is not a concern of yours because open borders undo all of the hard work and sacrifice made by Americans to overcome Covid.  There has been travel restrictions on Americans traveling from one state to another, yet there are no such restrictions in place when it come to those crossing the border illegally.  That is the point that I am addressing. 

That is it for the last time.  Myself and others have been trying to make this point for since this Covid began.  You and others have steadfastly refused to acknowledge this as a legitimate concern the entire time.  And persistently continue to ignore this legitimate concern of many, many people.

You won't even allow the distinction to be made between legal and illegal immigration.  And anyone who tries, you call them an anti immigrant, racist, bigoted xenophobe.

So why bother ?

Nothing more to say.

Bring on Ronald.  It is the least that you can do.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 10:01pm

 kurtster wrote:

I have only spoken in terms of citizen and non citizen.  This discussion is (or was) about how American citizens are getting the short end of the stick because of the actions of non citizens.

You keep saying refugees.  So what you are saying is that everyone coming across our border illegally is a refugee ?  I see.

Continue on without me then.

  

I post this reply while acknowledging the risk that its appearance might detain you here...

"This discussion is (or was) about how American citizens are getting the short end of the stick because of the actions of non citizens."

Ah yes, The Victims Club. Kurtster, president of a local chapter. 

Maybe I'm blissfully ignorant but I don't see that immigrants/refugees/illegals/whathaveyous at our borders are getting the long end of the stick when compared to American citizens. We've talked about immigrants' crime rates in the US, payments of US taxes, presence in job markets, draws upon social services, etc. I can't recall seeing evidence that immigrants are a significant and lasting drain on the US. I can't recall seeing evidence posted by you that supports your long/short end of the stick claims. 

You're talking about a handful of people relative to a population of around 330 million Americans. Illegal immigrants in the US accounted for around 4% of the general population in 2007. Illegal immigrants in the US dropped to around 3.2% of the population since. 

https://www.brookings.edu/poli...

https://www.pewresearch.org/fa...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

How are American citizens being deprived by the presence of such a small group?


One final thought: at one point you were complaining that Chuck, Nancy and the Blue Meanies were tolerating/welcoming immigration from Central and South America because it would increase the number of people voting for Democrats because (your assumption AFAICT, perhaps borrowed from Hannity or Limbaugh) people immigrating from those regions all vote for Democrats. Take a look at how Latinos in FL and TX helped deliver those states to Trump in the last election. Latino and Hispanic voters are not a monolithically blue bloc. 


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 8:39pm

 kcar wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

A rationalization and irrelevant.  Both are equal in their goals, actions and effects. Parallel ending using different motivations.  Both trying to justify the same willful end with their own means.  That is the point and what matters.  Or should matter.


Wow, NO. Not even close. You come up with the strangest notions. 

The refugee surge at our southern border is not greatly disruptive to the functioning of the US government. We can get on top of the logistics of handling this surge, although we do need long-term solutions to this problem. 

Furthermore, the refugees aren't united by a common political purpose. They are trying to find safety and a better life in the US.  Most of them likely want minimal interaction with the federal government. 

The idiots who stormed the Capitol on January 6th posed a direct, if disorganized threat to the functioning of the federal government. They killed and injured people while attempting to wipe out the results of a legitimate election. They sought to kill our political leaders. While the disruption to the federal government was brief, it was intense. 

There are no meaningful lessons to be learned by trying to lump together the refugees at our border with the people who tried to overthrow our government on January 6.
 
I have only spoken in terms of citizen and non citizen.  This discussion is (or was) about how American citizens are getting the short end of the stick because of the actions of non citizens.

You keep saying refugees.  So what you are saying is that everyone coming across our border illegally is a refugee ?  I see.

Continue on without me then.

  
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 7:36pm

 kcar wrote:

Not a big deal, but you're responding to a post by sirdroseph, not me. 

sirdroseph wrote: 

 "Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen? American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it."


Apologies. Point redirected.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 6:00pm

Seems to me that the thing that is missing in the immigration stoush is that the Democrats have always been in favour of restricting access with borders that are mostly closed. The difference with the stated Republican policy (maybe not the actual policy) is one of degree and one of how much cruelty should be inflicted to maintain acceptable immigrant and refugee levels. The only time I have heard Republicans acknowledge this is when they stated that Obama started the detention centers so they could ignore the vast increase in cruelty and unhealthy conditions under trump.

That does put Biden in an awkward position - he needs to keep the influx low without going to the extremes of trumpism and without explicitly saying that part of the balance is being willing to accept that some illegal immigration will occur. As I said when trump to office, overall the previous policies hit about the right level. Not that they couldn't be refined and improved, but that trump's cure was for what was mostly only a minor problem.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 4:13pm

 kurtster wrote:

A rationalization and irrelevant.  Both are equal in their goals, actions and effects. Parallel ending using different motivations.  Both trying to justify the same willful end with their own means.  That is the point and what matters.  Or should matter.


Wow, NO. Not even close. You come up with the strangest notions. 

The refugee surge at our southern border is not greatly disruptive to the functioning of the US government. We can get on top of the logistics of handling this surge, although we do need long-term solutions to this problem. 

Furthermore, the refugees aren't united by a common political purpose. They are trying to find safety and a better life in the US.  Most of them likely want minimal interaction with the federal government. 

The idiots who stormed the Capitol on January 6th posed a direct, if disorganized threat to the functioning of the federal government. They killed and injured people while attempting to wipe out the results of a legitimate election. They sought to kill our political leaders. While the disruption to the federal government was brief, it was intense. 

There are no meaningful lessons to be learned by trying to lump together the refugees at our border with the people who tried to overthrow our government on January 6.


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 4:02pm

 islander wrote:

How about Lives matter. Borders serve a purpose, but it's not the one you are hoping for.


Not a big deal, but you're responding to a post by sirdroseph, not me. 

sirdroseph wrote: 

 "Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen? American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it."
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 1:58pm

 islander wrote:
 kurtster wrote:


Well if your intent was to compare crowds of citizen's activities with non citizen activities, then the better comparison would be comparing those citizens who stormed the capitol during the "insurrection" and the non citizens who are storming our border.  Both actions disrespect and greatly disrupt our country and its health and safety along with the rule of law and order. 

That would be an apples and apples comparison.


Motivation behind these two movements is quite a bit different, so more like manzanas and the actions of a selfish group of sore losers. 

 
A rationalization and irrelevant.  Both are equal in their goals, actions and effects. Parallel ending using different motivations.  Both trying to justify the same willful end with their own means.  That is the point and what matters.  Or should matter.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 12:15pm

 kurtster wrote:

I accept your apology.

Well if your intent was to compare crowds of citizen's activities with non citizen activities, then the better comparison would be comparing those citizens who stormed the capitol during the "insurrection" and the non citizens who are storming our border.  Both actions disrespect and greatly disrupt our country and its health and safety along with the rule of law and order. 

That would be an apples and apples comparison.


Motivation behind these two movements is quite a bit different, so more like manzanas and the actions of a selfish group of sore losers. 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 11:08am

 islander wrote:
 kurtster wrote:


Ah, there you go again. New old target now that I'm not here for you to kick around. You even used your famous phony moral false equivalency tactic by comparing a legal and lawful assembly of American citizens with those who are neither citizens nor doing something lawful to make your thinly veiled attack appear morally superior to the sincere and honest original thought that you reply to and mock.

Oh and it's Texas not tecas ...


Well aren't you the self centered one today.  The target is as it always has been: comments that don't merit being left on their own without rebuttal. This time it was a bit of concern trolling about Covid spread in big crowds.  Seems that the Texas (genuinely sorry my misspelling bothered you so much, but I was on my phone) Rangers stadium also fit the bill of a large group of people at risk of spreading the disease, so I thought it worthy of bringing up.

 
I accept your apology.

Well if your intent was to compare crowds of citizen's activities with non citizen activities, then the better comparison would be comparing those citizens who stormed the capitol during the "insurrection" and the non citizens who are storming our border.  Both actions disrespect and greatly disrupt our country and its health and safety along with the rule of law and order. 

That would be an apples and apples comparison.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 9:40am

 kcar  Sir D. wrote:

Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen? American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.




How about Lives matter. Borders serve a purpose, but it's not the one you are hoping for.


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 8:50am

 sirdroseph wrote:
Unsatisfactory answer when you see the conditions and circumstances of the refugees and immigrants at the border where  they came from and the logistics of their travels and protocols.  You cannot tell me that tourist who are almost all upper income (I sure as hell  cannot afford to travel internationally) have the resources and education to be able to properly social distance, be tested, get vaccinated and so forth and are subject to these strict protocols of air travel present anywhere near the danger to the general public as refugees.   You are a smart person, I don't believe you think there is not a difference intellectually.   How would you explain to all of those people that have sacrificed their entire livelihoods and business at the altar of public safety why these refugees should be allowed to freely enter the country in these times.   Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen?   American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.


So...you've never been to TJ on a Saturday, then.

Your picture showed a glimpse of the scale of the refugee crisis in the world today. Well, three years ago, but it hasn't gotten any better. I didn't count the people in that column, but it has to be in the thousands, and that's just one tiny corner of the problem. Which points out to me the utter inadequacy of the US response...but I digress.

Before Trump we let in just under 100,000 refugees/year. Biden proposed a cap of 125,000/year, which he seems to be backpedaling on, but let's say that number is real. That's about 342 people per day. To put that in perspective, let's look at some border crossing data.

In 2020 (way, way down from normal due to covid and Trump) the busiest border crossing in the US, San Ysidro (between San Diego and TJ) saw just under 35 million legal border crossings. That's just under 96,000 per day. And no, these are not mostly American tourists, tho I'd bet money those numbers are in the tens of thousands a day. Many of them are not even US citizens, but people who live in Mexico and commute to jobs in the US every day, or Mexican citizens who come to the US to shop or visit relatives or do tourist things. Yes—brown people. Poor people. Get over it.

So anyway that's one border crossing, albeit the busiest in the US and one of the busiest in the world. We can look at one that has mostly white people crossing it—say, Buffalo, NY. 4.5 million/year, or 12,400/day. 

These are numbers compiled by DHS, BTW.

So we can handle 342/day. 40 times that number walk across the border at San Ysidro every day. 18 times that many truck drivers cross at Laredo, TX every day. Even if refugees weren't required to be tested before arriving (they are—almost all of them arrive by air) they would represent an insignificant increase in risk.

Should we start a nativist movement? Count we all the way the f#ck out, but...dude, where you been these last few years? That movement took over a major political party and elected a president. If you need a bandwagon to jump on...here's your sign.



steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 8:41am

 sirdroseph wrote:
. . .

American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.
 
 
 
 

This especially struck me. How are American citizens getting the short end of the stick? Who is getting the long end of the stick? And what stick are we talking about?

It seems to me that refugees living in desolate camps for years after escaping from persecution and often death or imprisonment in war-torn countries are clutching desperately to the shortest end of any stick.

America is not the only country that accepts refugees for resettlement. It is not even a leader in this regard. 

There is a moral imperative here.


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 7:49am

 kurtster wrote:


Ah, there you go again. New old target now that I'm not here for you to kick around. You even used your famous phony moral false equivalency tactic by comparing a legal and lawful assembly of American citizens with those who are neither citizens nor doing something lawful to make your thinly veiled attack appear morally superior to the sincere and honest original thought that you reply to and mock.

Oh and it's Texas not tecas ...


Well aren't you the self centered one today.  The target is as it always has been: comments that don't merit being left on their own without rebuttal. This time it was a bit of concern trolling about Covid spread in big crowds.  Seems that the Texas (genuinely sorry my misspelling bothered you so much, but I was on my phone) Rangers stadium also fit the bill of a large group of people at risk of spreading the disease, so I thought it worthy of bringing up.

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 4:54am

 sirdroseph wrote:

 

Excellent use of photography to make your point.   Trump should have stopped these folks, since the picture is from October 21, 2018.

I think you have the wrong "lies" forum.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 18, 2021 - 12:35am

 islander wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:


Unsatisfactory answer when you see the conditions and circumstances of the refugees and immigrants at the border where  they came from and the logistics of their travels and protocols.  You cannot tell me that tourist who are almost all upper income (I sure as hell  cannot afford to travel internationally) have the resources and education to be able to properly social distance, be tested, get vaccinated and so forth and are subject to these strict protocols of air travel present anywhere near the danger to the general public as refugees.   You are a smart person, I don't believe you think there is not a difference intellectually.   How would you explain to all of those people that have sacrificed their entire livelihoods and business at the altar of public safety why these refugees should be allowed to freely enter the country in these times.   Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen?   American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.
 
 
 
 


Are we also going to do something about all those tecas rangers fans who went to opening day?  
 
Ah, there you go again.  New old target now that I'm not here for you to kick around.  You even used your famous phony moral false equivalency tactic by comparing a legal and lawful assembly of American citizens with those who are neither citizens nor doing something lawful to make your thinly veiled attack appear morally superior to the sincere and honest original thought that you reply to and mock.

Oh and it's Texas not tecas ...

And only because I stopped by, how about the latest Biden Lie finally to be exposed ... the fake campaign lie that Putin put a bounty on American Troops in Afghanistan.  It was so egregious that it caused a shift in our foreign policy by actually stopping Trump's planned withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan dead in its tracks and in doing so, keeping our troops in harms way.  A lie using our troops as pawns for personal political gain.

A lie repeated here and cited in ongoing attacks on Trump as once again even further evidence of the never ending Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 17, 2021 - 11:04pm


sirdroseph wrote

"How would you explain to all of those people that have sacrificed their entire livelihoods and business at the altar of public safety why these refugees should be allowed to freely enter the country in these times."


The CDC apparently has policies in place that require vaccination of refugees and immigrants. Whether the Biden administration is actively forcing ICE to provide more sanitary conditions as well as vaccinations is not clear to me. 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Apr 17, 2021 - 10:57pm

sirdroseph wrote:

Unsatisfactory answer when you see the conditions and circumstances of the refugees and immigrants at the border where they came from and the logistics of their travels and protocols. You cannot tell me that tourist who are almost all upper income (I sure as hell cannot afford to travel internationally) have the resources and education to be able to properly social distance, be tested, get vaccinated and so forth and are subject to these strict protocols of air travel present anywhere near the danger to the general public as refugees. You are a smart person, I don't believe you think there is not a difference intellectually. How would you explain to all of those people that have sacrificed their entire livelihoods and business at the altar of public safety why these refugees should be allowed to freely enter the country in these times. Should we start a movement of American Lives Matter with the full commitment of advocacy and support of all ethnicities, religions, sexuality and gender with the only criteria being an American citizen? American citizens are getting the short stick in all of this no matter how you want to paint it.


KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:
A well put statement.
Where I live... almost all the infections and deaths from Covid in this area came from people travailing back and forth to Mexicali to visit family.
My wife's teachers aid got it and brought it back. She died a couple of weeks from returning visiting family. She past it on to her family members here where they contacted it and almost died.
Another close friend went down there. She didn't "get it". But it looks like she gave it to her two adult children and husband and her sister in law and husband. Thankfully they survived. Her two brothers, one sister and a couple of cousins died in Mexicali.
It was running rampant across the border.






"Where I live... almost all the infections and deaths from Covid in this area came from people travailing back and forth to Mexicali to visit family."

KurtfromLaQuinta, with all due respect, how you determine this? Covid is so prevalent in this country that contact tracing is useless. 

I'd agree with you that massing of refugees at the border in conditions that likely don't allow for sufficiently safe social distancing creates a risk of increased transmission. And during the Trump administration, ICE was—-big surprise!—lax in vaccinating detainees and preventing the spread of Covid:

This is an excerpt from a January 12, 2021 op-ed

Targeted vaccination efforts are essential in prisons and jails, where 90 of the 100 largest Covid-19 cluster outbreaks in the United States have occurred.

The spread of Covid-19 in ICE detention centers has also been rampant. On average, the monthly rate of cases in detention was 13.4 times higher than in the general population during the first five months of the pandemic. Yet ICE has been lax in implementing Covid-19 public health measures to protect detainees.

In collaboration with Physicians for Human Rights, we recently interviewed 50 formerly detained individuals. In this evaluation, published Jan. 12, those interviewed explained how ICE failed to comply with its own Covid-19 pandemic response requirements in at least 22 of its facilities — often denying detainees consistent access to soap, masks, and proper symptom-based testing and isolation.


This piece from the New England Journal of Medicine finds the same problems

Under the Trump administration, migrant detention centers became hot spots for infectious diseases, experiencing numerous outbreaks of influenza, measles, and mumps. Investigations into the deaths from influenza of several migrant children have revealed gross negligence in medical monitoring and a disturbing lack of expertise among people providing care to ill detainees.1 Such outcomes are unsurprising, given that detainees are held in crowded living conditions with inadequate sanitation and a limited capacity for isolation. In 2019, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) rejected a federal recommendation to vaccinate migrants against influenza, citing “logistic difficulties.”2

Although the Covid-19 pandemic has disproportionately affected migrant detainees, the U.S. government has refused to follow Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) infection-evaluation guidelines or to provide for adequate social distancing in detainment centers.3 This nonadherence has resulted in extraordinarily high SARS-CoV-2 testing positivity rates in Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detainment facilities, which at times have exceeded 50%. By the end of August 2020, there had been more than 5000 known cases of Covid-19 in ICE detention centers.4

Fortunately the Biden administration seems committed to providing full access to vaccinations for undocumented immigrants. 

https://www.reuters.com/articl...


Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16  Next