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Baseball, anyone? - zevon - Jul 5, 2020 - 6:27am
 
COVID-19 - KarmaKarma - Jul 5, 2020 - 6:26am
 
Things You Thought Today - kcar - Jul 4, 2020 - 10:34pm
 
What Are You Going To Do Today? - KurtfromLaQuinta - Jul 4, 2020 - 10:34pm
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - R_P - Jul 4, 2020 - 10:27pm
 
Ask the Libertarian - kcar - Jul 4, 2020 - 9:55pm
 
Looting & vandalism isn't protest - KarmaKarma - Jul 4, 2020 - 9:48pm
 
All Dogs Go To Heaven - Dog Pix - KarmaKarma - Jul 4, 2020 - 9:14pm
 
Trump - R_P - Jul 4, 2020 - 8:44pm
 
Name My Band - Isabeau - Jul 4, 2020 - 8:38pm
 
Gardeners Corner - kcar - Jul 4, 2020 - 7:55pm
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - oldviolin - Jul 4, 2020 - 6:40pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - Antigone - Jul 4, 2020 - 5:13pm
 
Why are 2 of the best albums of the last decade completel... - Steely_D - Jul 4, 2020 - 5:13pm
 
Movie Quote - kcar - Jul 4, 2020 - 2:51pm
 
Race in America - kcar - Jul 4, 2020 - 2:29pm
 
Mixtape Culture Club - Lazy8 - Jul 4, 2020 - 2:13pm
 
Counting with Pictures - ScottN - Jul 4, 2020 - 12:58pm
 
In My Room - Coaxial - Jul 4, 2020 - 12:26pm
 
Outstanding Covers - Lazy8 - Jul 4, 2020 - 11:05am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - buddy - Jul 4, 2020 - 8:13am
 
RP Daily Trivia Challenge - BlueHeronDruid - Jul 4, 2020 - 12:37am
 
RP stops playing after a few minutes on iPod (iOS) - gtufano - Jul 3, 2020 - 11:33pm
 
New Music - R_P - Jul 3, 2020 - 6:50pm
 
Canada - westslope - Jul 3, 2020 - 3:38pm
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - Antigone - Jul 3, 2020 - 2:39pm
 
how do you feel right now? - miamizsun - Jul 3, 2020 - 1:54pm
 
US Empire - R_P - Jul 3, 2020 - 12:46pm
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 10:39am
 
• • • PUZZLES • • • - BlueHeronDruid - Jul 3, 2020 - 10:02am
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - buddy - Jul 3, 2020 - 8:48am
 
• • • Things Magicians Exclaim • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 8:20am
 
Bluos App and Vault 2 Streamer. Is it playing in Flac? - BillG - Jul 3, 2020 - 8:05am
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 8:04am
 
::odd but intriguing:: - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 8:01am
 
Questions. - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 7:47am
 
• • • Things Musicians Exclaim • • • - - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 7:46am
 
What the hell OV? - oldviolin - Jul 3, 2020 - 7:43am
 
How are you coping/dealing with the crisis? - kurtster - Jul 3, 2020 - 2:44am
 
Oh, The Stupidity - haresfur - Jul 3, 2020 - 2:40am
 
The Obituary Page - ScottFromWyoming - Jul 2, 2020 - 10:01pm
 
NASA & other news from space - R_P - Jul 2, 2020 - 7:45pm
 
What are you listening to now? - black321 - Jul 2, 2020 - 7:14pm
 
Anti-War - R_P - Jul 2, 2020 - 6:04pm
 
Vinyl for old timer - Steely_D - Jul 2, 2020 - 6:00pm
 
Tech & Science - R_P - Jul 2, 2020 - 5:03pm
 
Now that is a great story! - miamizsun - Jul 2, 2020 - 4:14pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - miamizsun - Jul 2, 2020 - 4:12pm
 
Watch Now ! - miamizsun - Jul 2, 2020 - 4:06pm
 
Automotive Lust - Red_Dragon - Jul 2, 2020 - 1:53pm
 
Less Tori and more anything else ;p - hellojofo - Jul 2, 2020 - 10:13am
 
sonos service - mjvander - Jul 2, 2020 - 8:53am
 
Supreme Court Rulings - Red_Dragon - Jul 2, 2020 - 8:02am
 
Florida - rgio - Jul 2, 2020 - 8:01am
 
Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - Isabeau - Jul 2, 2020 - 7:47am
 
Hey Baby, It's The 4th O' July - miamizsun - Jul 2, 2020 - 6:57am
 
Amazon Echo/Alexa stream not working - rochesimpson - Jul 1, 2020 - 3:31pm
 
Official date for our 20th Anniversary? - Windspirit - Jul 1, 2020 - 3:16pm
 
Republican Party - Red_Dragon - Jul 1, 2020 - 11:40am
 
Can't add RP service to Sonos - donot_spam - Jul 1, 2020 - 10:28am
 
Fox Spews - kurtster - Jun 30, 2020 - 9:21pm
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Jun 30, 2020 - 8:47pm
 
Those Lovable Policemen - R_P - Jun 30, 2020 - 8:44pm
 
Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? - haresfur - Jun 30, 2020 - 6:56pm
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - VV - Jun 30, 2020 - 2:24pm
 
Trump Lies - R_P - Jun 30, 2020 - 2:21pm
 
American Justice - cc_rider - Jun 30, 2020 - 1:08pm
 
Live Music - R_P - Jun 30, 2020 - 11:48am
 
More detailed album version tag? - anonym - Jun 30, 2020 - 11:24am
 
Nederland / The Netherlands - theo1 - Jun 30, 2020 - 10:32am
 
What is "Sonos" tracking in web browser - yobyot - Jun 30, 2020 - 7:57am
 
Crazy conspiracy theories - Red_Dragon - Jun 30, 2020 - 5:28am
 
Electronic Music - R_P - Jun 29, 2020 - 8:50pm
 
RightWingNutZ - haresfur - Jun 29, 2020 - 8:24pm
 
China - KarmaKarma - Jun 29, 2020 - 7:10pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » COVID-19 Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 121, 122, 123  Next
Post to this Topic
KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jul 5, 2020 - 6:26am



 Lazy8 wrote:
KarmaKarma wrote:
Also true.

Though, there are documented instances out there, by medical professionals (docs & infectious disease specialists) of Hydroxychloroquine being an effective route to shorten the effects or the stay in hospital.  Peer verified clinical trials - no - getting that done requires a lot of time.

Strange though how easily the medical journals were frauded with the fake negative info about Hydroxychloroquine from a tiny company, now defunct, that never had any medical staff ... brings into question the reliability of the entire medical publication system.  Well actually, over recent years, it's already proven that they're totally unreliable..

Totally unreliable? Really? Or just when the result is politically inconvenient?


In a crisis there is enormous pressure to publish without careful review. Journals are run by fallible human beings, but retracting bad papers is how you keep a medical publication system reliable. Admitting when you're wrong, taking steps to correct problem. Y'know, the opposite of doubling down or changing the subject when you're caught in a lie.

And those instances, from that one guy that one time? Those are anecdotes. They're interesting but they aren't useful in judging the effects of drugs on diseases and the body. Bodies recover from diseases most of the time, with no intervention at all. You need to try the drug on lots of people and look at the stats to know if it has better results than doing nothing.
 

Okay, so "totally unreliable" is a bit of a stretch. Granted. If only all the fake papers could be explained away as politically inconvenient.  There's much much more to it than that.  The problem with garbage papers and their hopeful detection & eventual retraction has been going on for a long time - well before Trump.  Most everyone knows by now about #fakenews, or has some understanding what's implied.  Unfortunately, most everyone has no idea that fake papers are a major blot on the medical & research community. And yes, publish or perish is a known thing - largely within the research community, not known so much by the public.  Also fake papers are a bit thing in the whole climate change 'industry' - the lawyers are making bank as the frauds are uncovered (see Mark Steyn v Michael Mann, & the site  Watts Up With That, etc)

Taking on medical papers — there are many links out there to read for further background and example.  (Google list of fake medical papers)

Here's one key site on retractions,

Retraction Watch: Our list of retracted or withdrawn COVID-19 papers is up to 22.


Retraction Watch: Top 10 most highly cited retracted papers


and a representative article from 2017.
Forbes: Fake Medical Journals Are Spreading, And They Are Filled With Bad Science

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 10:44pm

KarmaKarma wrote:
Also true.

Though, there are documented instances out there, by medical professionals (docs & infectious disease specialists) of Hydroxychloroquine being an effective route to shorten the effects or the stay in hospital.  Peer verified clinical trials - no - getting that done requires a lot of time.

Strange though how easily the medical journals were frauded with the fake negative info about Hydroxychloroquine from a tiny company, now defunct, that never had any medical staff ... brings into question the reliability of the entire medical publication system.  Well actually, over recent years, it's already proven that they're totally unreliable..

Totally unreliable? Really? Or just when the result is politically inconvenient?

In a crisis there is enormous pressure to publish without careful review. Journals are run by fallible human beings, but retracting bad papers is how you keep a medical publication system reliable. Admitting when you're wrong, taking steps to correct problem. Y'know, the opposite of doubling down or changing the subject when you're caught in a lie.

And those instances, from that one guy that one time? Those are anecdotes. They're interesting but they aren't useful in judging the effects of drugs on diseases and the body. Bodies recover from diseases most of the time, with no intervention at all. You need to try the drug on lots of people and look at the stats to know if it has better results than doing nothing.
KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:53pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
KarmaKarma wrote:
People literally died because the media was more interested in demonizing Donald Trump than getting the facts right.

Also -Hydroxychloroquine (aka  Plaquenil) sulfate (the full generic name) is no longer covered by patent protection.  There's at least four generic makers supplying it.  Cost per tab is ultra-low.

Those who claimed Trump's motivation in promoting the drug  was that he directly profited from its sale - and those people ought to apologize.  Of course all we'll ever hear is crickets.


No, there's no randomly-controlled trial that indicates this. So far, in fact, the only reliable clinical study so far said the opposite—that hydroxychloroquine is not effective as a preventative measure.

If he's referring to the recent retractions of other studies claiming to show no effect against C-19 and harmful side effects...that's how ethical scientists behave. When they see they've been misled or mistaken they publicly correct the record.

I don't expect everybody to grasp the difference between failing to demonstrate something is false and proving that thing is true. That's a logic thing. Most people suck at it. Media types are not excepted here-they bring their own agendas and ignorance to reporting, even on medical topics. Even on matters of life and death.

Another logic thing: dishonest people saying something doesn't make what they said false. Trumpalists can take some small comfort in that. The most important feature of true things is that they're true no matter who says them.

Some hard concepts here, so I'll try and summarize: there is no reliable evidence that hydroxychloroquine has any positive effect on the progress of C-19. We haven't exhaustively proved it has no clinical value yet, but if it were the miracle drug the people hyping it claimed that would have been apparent by now.
 

Also true.

Though, there are documented instances out there, by medical professionals (docs & infectious disease specialists) of Hydroxychloroquine being an effective route to shorten the effects or the stay in hospital.  Peer verified clinical trials - no - getting that done requires a lot of time.

Strange though how easily the medical journals were frauded with the fake negative info about Hydroxychloroquine from a tiny company, now defunct, that never had any medical staff ... brings into question the reliability of the entire medical publication system.  Well actually, over recent years, it's already proven that they're totally unreliable..
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:13pm

239 Experts With 1 Big Claim: The Coronavirus Is Airborne
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:35pm



 kurtster wrote:

You should be wanting to build bridges, not erecting walls by dictating the tone negatively. 


 
Bravo! Selective Outrage at it's finest. Did someone say . . . not erecting walls and negative tones?
Can you say Projection?
I knew yew cud!

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:26pm

KarmaKarma wrote:
People literally died because the media was more interested in demonizing Donald Trump than getting the facts right.

Also -Hydroxychloroquine (aka  Plaquenil) sulfate (the full generic name) is no longer covered by patent protection.  There's at least four generic makers supplying it.  Cost per tab is ultra-low.

Those who claimed Trump's motivation in promoting the drug  was that he directly profited from its sale - and those people ought to apologize.  Of course all we'll ever hear is crickets.


No, there's no randomly-controlled trial that indicates this. So far, in fact, the only reliable clinical study so far said the opposite—that hydroxychloroquine is not effective as a preventative measure.

If he's referring to the recent retractions of other studies claiming to show no effect against C-19 and harmful side effects...that's how ethical scientists behave. When they see they've been misled or mistaken they publicly correct the record.

I don't expect everybody to grasp the difference between failing to demonstrate something is false and proving that thing is true. That's a logic thing. Most people suck at it. Media types are not excepted here-they bring their own agendas and ignorance to reporting, even on medical topics. Even on matters of life and death.

Another logic thing: dishonest people saying something doesn't make what they said false. Trumpalists can take some small comfort in that. The most important feature of true things is that they're true no matter who says them.

Some hard concepts here, so I'll try and summarize: there is no reliable evidence that hydroxychloroquine has any positive effect on the progress of C-19. We haven't exhaustively proved it has no clinical value yet, but if it were the miracle drug the people hyping it claimed that would have been apparent by now.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 5:23pm

great website with graphics

BIO COVID-19 Therapeutic Development Tracker


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 2:21pm

 Steely_D wrote:
It's just the summary from the article under its lede.
 
Shhh, it's a conspiracy!
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 2:08pm



 kurtster wrote:
Agent Orange wrote:
'Consigning his voters to sickness': Trump fuels culture war over masks
As some attack face coverings as an assault on freedom, some Trump allies have bowed to reality amid Covid-19’s spread
 
I find the term bowed to be meant offensively as in giving in /surrendering.  How about come to terms with reality ?  As in rational thought ?
 
It's just the summary from the article under its lede.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 1:14pm

Agent Orange wrote:
'Consigning his voters to sickness': Trump fuels culture war over masks
As some attack face coverings as an assault on freedom, some Trump allies have bowed to reality amid Covid-19’s spread
 
I find the term bowed to be meant offensively as in giving in /surrendering.  How about come to terms with reality ?  As in rational thought ?

You should be wanting to build bridges, not erecting walls by dictating the tone negatively. 

Aren't you the one who is supposed to be the Prince of Nuance© here ?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 1:03pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:
.  Of course all we'll ever hear is crickets.
 

Because anyone saying hydroxychloroqine works, as far as we know right now, is either ignorant or willfully misinforming the public
.

Here’s the latest from UpToDate, one of the more important information sources for medical care providers. It’s like Wikipedia in that it’s updated constantly. (Hence its name). The italics are mine, so you can skip the other polysyllabic words if they give you trouble.


“We generally do not use other agents off-label for treatment of COVID-19. In particular, we suggest not routinely using hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine outside the context of a clinical trial given the lack of clear benefit and potential for toxicity (Grade 2C). We also suggest not using lopinavir-ritonavir for COVID-19 therapy outside of a clinical trial (Grade 2B). (See 'Hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine' above and 'Others' above.)”

What is Grade 2? “2. Weak recommendation: Benefits and risks closely balanced and/or uncertain”
What is Grade C? “C. Low-quality evidence: Evidence from observational studies, unsystematic clinical observations, or from randomized trials with serious flaws”

and

”While hydroxychloroquine is being studied as a prophylactic agent, one randomized trial found that it was not effective for prevention. We recommend that neither this medication nor any other be used for prophylaxis outside of clinical trials.”

So the issue here is not that politics or Trump is preventing us from using a helpful medicine - instead, it’s that 

TRUMP AND HIS POLITICS ARE PROMOTING TREATMENTS THAT AREN’T USEFUL.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 12:08pm

'Consigning his voters to sickness': Trump fuels culture war over masks
As some attack face coverings as an assault on freedom, some Trump allies have bowed to reality amid Covid-19’s spread
KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 9:35am

People literally died because the media was more interested in demonizing Donald Trump than getting the facts right.

Also -Hydroxychloroquine (aka  Plaquenil) sulfate (the full generic name) is no longer covered by patent protection.  There's at least four generic makers supplying it.  Cost per tab is ultra-low.

Those who claimed Trump's motivation in promoting the drug  was that he directly profited from its sale - and those people ought to apologize.  Of course all we'll ever hear is crickets.


buddy

buddy Avatar

Location: Rocky Mountains
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:09am



 kurtster wrote:
There is no solid data on anything. Do not ever let your guard down, cuz this will not be over until it is.
 
Exactly.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 8:03am

brother in law is a health care worker in atl

fifty something, heavy

felt very tired, winded after stairs, slight fever but developed a cough

tested + for covid-19 and spent about 5 days in the hospital

released yesterday (yeah!) with oral meds and seems to be doing as well as can be expected

hoping he bounces back asap

{#Good-vibes}
davidharper



Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 5:49am

so the mortality rate is what?   0.05% ?   And when they say" he died of covid "does that mean only covid? or covid with heart disease, diabetes, old age, COPD, etc.   What a drag.  
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 3:13am

 Steely_D wrote:
This is very important. Please take the time to read through this rational and compelling post.

Why are COVID cases increasing while deaths are decreasing?

His summary:

The truth is simple, and horrifying. We are about to have dozens of NYCs around the country. The next 8 weeks are going to brutal, no matter what we do. ICUs overflowing, ventilators rationed, hundreds of thousands of deaths.



 
Yes.

It gets worse.  The CDC itself and some states are combining positive tests and those who test positive for the anti body when tested.  The positive antibody numbers go into the new active numbers.  Bad for policy making decisions at the very least as illustrated in SteelyD's article.

There is no solid data on anything.  Do not ever let your guard down, cuz this will not be over until it is.  

The CDC is lumping positive COVID-19 viral and antibody tests together. Here's why that's bad.

Combining these two signals makes the data difficult to interpret and could be misleading to the public, because the combined number does not reflect the rate of new infection (and the number of infectious people circulating) in their region, William Hanage, an epidemiology professor at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, told The Atlantic. "Combining a test that is designed to detect current infection with a test that detects infection at some point in the past is just really confusing and muddies the water," he said.

In addition, people are most likely to receive a diagnostic test if they're suspected to be infected, meaning they're showing symptoms of the disease or have been in contact with an infected person. Antibody tests can be given to anyone, and because relatively few people are thought to have been infected with COVID-19 across the U.S., many antibody tests may come back negative. If combined with diagnostic test results, antibody test results could artificially lower the percentage of positive tests out of the total.

The percentage of positive diagnostic tests provides a sense of how much virus is currently circulating in a community, and if skewed, that warped statistic could wrongly influence public health policy decisions.



BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Jul 4, 2020 - 12:44am



 Steely_D wrote:
This is very important. Please take the time to read through this rational and compelling post.

Why are COVID cases increasing while deaths are decreasing?

His summary:

The truth is simple, and horrifying. We are about to have dozens of NYCs around the country. The next 8 weeks are going to brutal, no matter what we do. ICUs overflowing, ventilators rationed, hundreds of thousands of deaths.




 

IOW - Say goodbye now? And heaven bless.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 3, 2020 - 10:13pm

Kimberly Guilfoyle, who is dating the president's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., tested positive for the novel coronavirus while in South Dakota.


Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 3, 2020 - 4:45pm

This is very important. Please take the time to read through this rational and compelling post.

Why are COVID cases increasing while deaths are decreasing?

His summary:

The truth is simple, and horrifying. We are about to have dozens of NYCs around the country. The next 8 weeks are going to brutal, no matter what we do. ICUs overflowing, ventilators rationed, hundreds of thousands of deaths.




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