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curiosity... - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 22, 2021 - 9:37am
 
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the Todd Rundgren topic - Steely_D - Oct 22, 2021 - 9:26am
 
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Joe Biden - westslope - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:28pm
 
Way Cool Video - oldviolin - Oct 20, 2021 - 3:10pm
 
Australia has Disappeared - haresfur - Oct 20, 2021 - 2:48pm
 
The Obituary Page - Red_Dragon - Oct 20, 2021 - 2:28pm
 
- PUNS - POLICE - oldviolin - Oct 20, 2021 - 12:02pm
 
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Into the Future - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 9:11am
 
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Things You Thought Today - steeler - Oct 20, 2021 - 7:46am
 
Sweet horrible irony. - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:35am
 
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And the good news is.... - miamizsun - Oct 20, 2021 - 4:00am
 
That's good advice - sirdroseph - Oct 20, 2021 - 3:19am
 
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260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Oct 19, 2021 - 7:57pm
 
Nuclear power - saviour or scourge? - miamizsun - Oct 19, 2021 - 2:22pm
 
2020 Elections - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 11:30am
 
More reggae, less Marley please - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 10:43am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:50am
 
Oh GOD, they're GAY! - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2021 - 8:16am
 
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RightWingNutZ - R_P - Oct 17, 2021 - 4:22pm
 
What did you have for dinner? - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 3:56pm
 
Dreams - Tales from your sleep - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 2:51pm
 
If not RP, what are you listening to right now? - Ohmsen - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:52pm
 
Share a Website you love or hate… - Steely_D - Oct 17, 2021 - 1:50pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Putin Owns Trump Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
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Ohmsen

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Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 2:09pm

With Clinton lawyer charged, the Russiagate scam is now under indictment
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Sep 21, 2021 - 5:01am

Longtime GOP operatives charged with funneling Russian national’s money to Trump, RNC
rgio

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Posted: Jun 16, 2021 - 2:31pm

It's pretty interesting to see how weak Putin looks when confronted with the slightest challenge from the US. 

The constant whatabout-isms when answering questions were painfully wandering and a nice change of pace vs. Helsinki, when Donnie did his PR for him.

It's truly amusing to hear the Right slam Biden for meeting with Putin....when all they could talk about was how Trump was fixing international affairs as he was violated by the world's dictators for 4 years.  
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Apr 11, 2017 - 5:08pm

FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor former Trump adviser Carter Page
miamizsun

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Posted: Mar 30, 2017 - 7:35am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
verified means somebody he knows and trusts?

i'm fairly certain it is normal or not unusual for diplomats to observe and collect data

i'm not up to speed on the shadowy business of government info/data acquisition

i guess what i'm asking is how they define a spy or spying

i see a lot of posturing but not proof

they even admit
So far, no single piece of evidence has been made public proving that the Trump campaign joined with Russia to steal the US presidency - nothing.

if they have something let's see it, if not let them finish the inquiry and let everyone see results

admittedly i'm a little worn on all the political grandstanding

peace
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Posted: Mar 30, 2017 - 6:42am

Trump Russia dossier key claim 'verified'
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Posted: Mar 24, 2017 - 4:40am

Anti-Putin Exile Gunned Down in the Streets of Ukraine
Lazy8

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Posted: Mar 12, 2017 - 7:29pm

 aflanigan wrote:
But should we really take Plato's word regarding the Sophists at face value? Isn't that something we'd agreed should be scrutinized carefully to see whether he, as a journalist or alleged truth-teller of his time, had an axe to grind against the Sophists?

 IIRC Pirsig's main point about Plato and Aristotle is that in pushing a narrative regarding the true being superior to the good, or dialectic being superior to rhetoric, so as to portray their teacher and mentor Socrates as a true hero, Plato may well have had reason to be less than objective or "rational" when it came to accurately describing the views of Sophists such as Gorgias and Protagoras. Expecting students of Socrates such as Plato and Aristotle to accurately recount the beliefs, disputes, and philosophies of Socrates and the Sophists is kind of like expecting Sean Hannity to accurately comment on the differences between Obama and Trump, or to accurately represent Obama's politics, positions, beliefs, etc. Plato is said to have described the sophists of his time which he critiques in his dialogues as "shadows of the true early sophists", which seems an awful lot like . . . a rhetorical argument/logical fallacy designed to persuade. Sort of a variation on the appeal to tradition?

Regardless of whether the namesake's reputation is deserved or not what is now called sophistry is...deplorable.
aflanigan

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Posted: Mar 12, 2017 - 12:21pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Stoics vs. sophists
ok, not the best link.. but you guys arguing about this reminds a bit of this ancient debate.

btw, I don't see either of you as sophists, but holding journalists to account for what they write is a question of our attitudes toward the truth, or if not that, at least some modicum of logical consistency. Allowing them to write any bullshit is surrendering the field to the sophists, who are already in the ascendancy. We are in a world of alternative facts and rampant misinformation when all that counts is your party allegiance and the truth can be shoehorned to fit your party program. At the moment I am grateful for anyone who has the balls to stand up and claim bullshit.
Just because the media earn their dough from clicks and advertising revenue doesn't mean we have to accept that low base line, even if it is dictate of the free market and demand for misinformation.
 

 
I guess I should offer clarification with regard to standards vs. expectations. I believe its appropriate to draw a distinction between the two.

We all have standards we are held to. Legally, we're expected to always obey the law. Morally, we're expected (by those who insist upon morality as a guiding principle, anyway) to always "do the right thing". In employment situations, I'm expected to always make the right call, never make a mistake, etc. Judges and doctors are similarly held to stringent standards ("first, do no harm" does not have qualifiers attached).

In practice, as humans, we don't always live up to such absolute standards. I certainly don't always. I make mistakes at work, as do we all. Thus, my expectation is that even the most diligent and dedicated journalist will occasionally fail to detect evidence of a source trying to manipulate them, or sniff out fraud/a hidden agenda in a proffered piece of "evidence" or document, for example. The salient question is, are these mistakes/slip ups the result of excusable human error, or part of a more nefarious pattern? "Rolodex journalism" is a term referring to the perhaps way too common practice of always seeking out the same handful or sources, which makes it easy to meet deadlines but can lead to laziness and a tendency to not want to scrutinize the motives and value of what you get from such sources too rigorously. There's the rush to get the "scoop" motivation that can provide incentive to avoid being thoughtful and careful in publishing controversial stuff. And of course there's confirmation bias, as L8 has noted. Thus the other question, which can be difficult to answer, is how often do journalists reporting on controversial political topics challenge themselves to look very carefully for signs of laziness, attempted manipulation, possible agendas, etc.

We're not going to get perfection from even the most diligent reporters. The challenge is to root out the avoidable forms of lazy/inept/biased journalism, understanding that some imperfect journalism will inevitably result when humans are involved. 


aflanigan

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Posted: Mar 12, 2017 - 11:48am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
Not every thoughtful person has such a low opinion of the original Sophists. Robert Pirsig believed they got a bum rap, and he makes a pretty good case for it in his famous book.

It's a shame that the word "sophistry" has attained the status of a pejorative. The root word, sophos, means "wisdom", which we could definitely use more of.

At least they haven't stolen arete and turned it into a pejorative, yet.

Sophistry became a pejorative because of the juvenile wordplay of later sophists, much as modern academics have squandered their reputations with postmodernism. Plato ripped into the sophist pretty hard.

They began as teachers of rhetoric—which by itself is not a bad thing—but much as in our time it became a substitute for reasoned debate. Clever wordplay is not thought, or even evidence of thought, as shown by this passage from Euthydemus, in which Euthydemus and Dionysodorus accost Clesippus:

You say that you have a dog?

Yes, a villain of a one, said Clesippus.

And he has puppies?

Yes, and they are very like himself.’

And the dog is the father of them?

Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and the mother of the puppies come together.

And is he not yours?

To be sure he is.

Then he is a father, and he is yours; ergo, he is your father, and the puppies are your brothers.

Rather than seek precision in language to reach clarity of thought they exploit the vagueness of language as a substitute for thought. The sophists intellectually bankrupted themselves, at least if we are to take Plato's word for the state of their school in his time.

 
But should we really take Plato's word regarding the Sophists at face value? Isn't that something we'd agreed should be scrutinized carefully to see whether he, as a journalist or alleged truth-teller of his time, had an axe to grind against the Sophists?

 IIRC Pirsig's main point about Plato and Aristotle is that in pushing a narrative regarding the true being superior to the good, or dialectic being superior to rhetoric, so as to portray their teacher and mentor Socrates as a true hero, Plato may well have had reason to be less than objective or "rational" when it came to accurately describing the views of Sophists such as Gorgias and Protagoras. Expecting students of Socrates such as Plato and Aristotle to accurately recount the beliefs, disputes, and philosophies of Socrates and the Sophists is kind of like expecting Sean Hannity to accurately comment on the differences between Obama and Trump, or to accurately represent Obama's politics, positions, beliefs, etc. Plato is said to have described the sophists of his time which he critiques in his dialogues as "shadows of the true early sophists", which seems an awful lot like . . . a rhetorical argument/logical fallacy designed to persuade. Sort of a variation on the appeal to tradition?


NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 11, 2017 - 11:13am

 aflanigan wrote:

Not every thoughtful person has such a low opinion of the original Sophists. Robert Pirsig believed they got a bum rap, and he makes a pretty good case for it in his famous book.

It's a shame that the word "sophistry" has attained the status of a pejorative. The root word, sophos, means "wisdom", which we could definitely use more of.

At least they haven't stolen arete and turned it into a pejorative, yet.

 
I must have read that about 25 years ago - can't remember the sophist angle of it but attitude to life came across good and strong. 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 11, 2017 - 10:37am

 islander wrote:

I'm not up on my philosophy, but wasn't the pitch of the sophists to use creative arguments to support specious facts?  My impression is that the pejorative use of the term came from their support of disprovable arguments?  This reminds me a lot of the trump team....  Maybe we should be tuning up our fiddles in case there is a fire? 

 
yep, that is basically it. Though Lazy8 and Aflanigan were actually debating the minimum requirements to be placed on journalists, (probably because both have given up all hope of finding any saving grace in the Trump team)

Ancient philosophy was not just about meaning in the narrow sense of "what do these words mean" and "is this argument logically consistent or not", or reason.
A lot of it was about how to live. Vice and virtue played a really big role and the general agreement was to bring reason, emotions and morals into the perfect balance to enable you to live a happy life.

The stoics believed that you can't change some things in the world and you should therefore apply your reason to keep your emotions in check (which gives rise to our current use of the word stoic). "Sophist" is a really wide term, which as Aflanigan correctly points out, was initially not pejorative at all (even Socrates is sometimes classified as a sophist) but described the group of thinkers who pursued intellectual discourse for its own sake.. (basically the philosophical endeavour).. This endeavour went off the rails as people lost track of the other two aspects of the triangle, morality and emotions. However, some would think that even the stoics also went too far in denying emotion, which is why I am a big fan of Epikur/Epicurus (no, not just for the drinking). 

btw, please don't get the notion that I know what I am talking about.. I don't really, this is all regurgitated stuff from my BA in philosophy 25 years ago.. I am no expert, and certainly not an expert of the classics, though it is mind-blowing how much relevance ancient Greek philosophy has for our modern society.
 
back to today... I would say Trump and the alt-right have dumped reason and morality and are swinging their program on the strength of emotion alone. That can work for the short-term but it is ultimately "headless" - out of control and will fail. OTOH reason alone doesn't cut it either and can end up in a post-modernist vacuity.  And there is also the need to consider morality, however you want to define that.. Getting the three into balance is the trick.

edit:  philosophy should not just be an intellectual endeavour but a holistic attitude to life. How you live is just as important as what you say and think. .. 

/off to open a bottle of wine and read some Epicurus. 
 


islander

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Posted: Mar 11, 2017 - 10:01am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


Crikey, I hope that is not a normal evolutionary course for an advanced society:

Insight, debate, resolution - rinse and repeat - until all insight and resolution has faded away and one is just left with circular (and hollow) debate.. our future looks kind of grim if that it is the case.

 
I'm not up on my philosophy, but wasn't the pitch of the sophists to use creative arguments to support specious facts?  My impression is that the pejorative use of the term came from their support of disprovable arguments?  This reminds me a lot of the trump team....  Maybe we should be tuning up our fiddles in case there is a fire? 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Mar 11, 2017 - 9:25am

 Lazy8 wrote:
 aflanigan wrote:
Not every thoughtful person has such a low opinion of the original Sophists. Robert Pirsig believed they got a bum rap, and he makes a pretty good case for it in his famous book.

It's a shame that the word "sophistry" has attained the status of a pejorative. The root word, sophos, means "wisdom", which we could definitely use more of.

At least they haven't stolen arete and turned it into a pejorative, yet.

Sophistry became a pejorative because of the juvenile wordplay of later sophists, much as modern academics have squandered their reputations with postmodernism. Plato ripped into the sophist pretty hard.

They began as teachers of rhetoric—which by itself is not a bad thing—but much as in our time it became a substitute for reasoned debate. Clever wordplay is not thought, or even evidence of thought, as shown by this passage from Euthydemus, in which Euthydemus and Dionysodorus accost Clesippus:

You say that you have a dog?

Yes, a villain of a one, said Clesippus.

And he has puppies?

Yes, and they are very like himself.’

And the dog is the father of them?

Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and the mother of the puppies come together.

And is he not yours?

To be sure he is.

Then he is a father, and he is yours; ergo, he is your father, and the puppies are your brothers.

Rather than seek precision in language to reach clarity of thought they exploit the vagueness of language as a substitute for thought. The sophists intellectually bankrupted themselves, at least if we are to take Plato's word for the state of their school in his time.

 

Crikey, I hope that is not a normal evolutionary course for an advanced society:

Insight, debate, resolution - rinse and repeat - until all insight and resolution has faded away and one is just left with circular (and hollow) debate.. our future looks kind of grim if that it is the case.


Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Mar 11, 2017 - 9:05am

 aflanigan wrote:
Not every thoughtful person has such a low opinion of the original Sophists. Robert Pirsig believed they got a bum rap, and he makes a pretty good case for it in his famous book.

It's a shame that the word "sophistry" has attained the status of a pejorative. The root word, sophos, means "wisdom", which we could definitely use more of.

At least they haven't stolen arete and turned it into a pejorative, yet.

Sophistry became a pejorative because of the juvenile wordplay of later sophists, much as modern academics have squandered their reputations with postmodernism. Plato ripped into the sophist pretty hard.

They began as teachers of rhetoric—which by itself is not a bad thing—but much as in our time it became a substitute for reasoned debate. Clever wordplay is not thought, or even evidence of thought, as shown by this passage from Euthydemus, in which Euthydemus and Dionysodorus accost Clesippus:

You say that you have a dog?

Yes, a villain of a one, said Clesippus.

And he has puppies?

Yes, and they are very like himself.’

And the dog is the father of them?

Yes, he said, I certainly saw him and the mother of the puppies come together.

And is he not yours?

To be sure he is.

Then he is a father, and he is yours; ergo, he is your father, and the puppies are your brothers.

Rather than seek precision in language to reach clarity of thought they exploit the vagueness of language as a substitute for thought. The sophists intellectually bankrupted themselves, at least if we are to take Plato's word for the state of their school in his time.


aflanigan

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Posted: Mar 10, 2017 - 12:08pm

 aflanigan wrote: 
Still being investigated by FBI, according to CNN
oldviolin

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Posted: Mar 10, 2017 - 11:12am

 Red_Dragon wrote:


I think I'll find a process proceeding somewhere and totally corrupt it...What fun that'll be...



 
Why take the easy way out. Stay. Drink. Polish the floor with care worn mental laxatives...
Red_Dragon

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Posted: Mar 10, 2017 - 11:05am

 oldviolin wrote:

hate me whup me piss on my daffodils, but please don't fling me in that briar patch...

 


I think I'll find a process proceeding somewhere and totally corrupt it...What fun that'll be...


oldviolin

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Posted: Mar 10, 2017 - 11:03am

 aflanigan wrote:

Dude, don't MAKE me open up a can of metaphysical WHOOPASS on your ass.

 
hate me whup me piss on my daffodils, but please don't fling me in that briar patch...
aflanigan

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Posted: Mar 10, 2017 - 10:54am

 oldviolin wrote:

What are you talking? I was Iarate just the other day as a matter of fact...

 
Dude, don't MAKE me open up a can of metaphysical WHOOPASS on your ass.
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