David Brooks of the NYT is a favourite op/ed read. (I guess one of the things I love about the U.S.A. are some outstanding op/ed writers.) This article captures some of the issues that were previously discussed in this thread. -w
OK, I get it, you are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Assimilation is successful and especially "successful" if the message is forcefully repeated often enough.
.......
Not sure what about this bothers you, but it sure does seem to wind your knickers.
Forced assimilation doesn't have a very good track record; native boarding schools, for instance. Not just a Canadian thing, they failed here too. And in Australia.
Might be interesting to hear from our Kiwi readers. New Zealand seems to be one of the more-successful examples of assimilation, but there's probably more to the story than we see from a distance.
Been meaning to get back to this thread. You nailed it Lazy8. Assimilation carries connotations of "force" but also of more subtle means to strip 'others' of their language and culture.
My advice? As a general rule, do not vaunt assimilation outside of the USA . That advice probably applies to many native American, Black African, Muslim, orthodox Jewish and even some Latino communities.
From my perspective, assimilation in this context implies the insistence of most Americans of remaining resolutely and stubbornly unilingual. Moreover, white Americans have been since the early days of the Obama years constantly reminding the world of how racist they are. Happy assimilation? I don't think so.
In addition, the USA has killed a lot of innocent civilians in the last 2 decades. What is the rule there? When assimilation does not work, kill.
People in North America and elsewhere still promote the idea that aboriginal folks should "assimilate". Personally I would rather see them successfully integrate into the market economy and dominant society on their own terms.
Note that, Canada does not brag about assimilation but rather promotes multi-culturalism. Nobody in Europe except for perhaps right-wing ethno-nationalists talks about assimilation though that process has been occurring for thousands of years.
Move to Bulgaria and your descendants will eventually become Bulgarians. Move to Portugal and they will eventually become Portuguese. If one population enters another's realm in numbers insufficient to completely take over it gets assimilated...or the populations segregate and remain a source of tension and strife.
Like the Mongols conquered China...and got assimilated into Chinese culture. Like waves of eastern European refugees. came into France...and got assimilated. It's human. It's...normal.
Because the alternative is generally much, much worse. The Jews of Europe. The Balkans. Chinese in southeast Asia. Rwanda.
Contrast the continuing conflict in Belgium between the Walloons and Flemish with the Walloon community in Wisconsin. You didn't realize there was a large Walloon community in Wisconsin? That's because it isn't a source of conflict—they assimilated.
Peaceful segregation exists (as in Switzerland) but it's pretty rare. The fate of Quebec is still an open question. There is a large population of French/Creole speakers in Louisiana. They aren't trying to secede from the US. They've assimilated. Cajun is a flavor of American.
Not sure what about this bothers you, but it sure does seem to wind your knickers.
Forced assimilation doesn't have a very good track record; native boarding schools, for instance. Not just a Canadian thing, they failed here too. And in Australia.
Might be interesting to hear from our Kiwi readers. New Zealand seems to be one of the more-successful examples of assimilation, but there's probably more to the story than we see from a distance.
... I am well aware of the cultural diversity in the USA. That started at an early age when in Grade 9 I participated in an exchange High School band trip to Syracuse, New York. My hosts were a very modest, working class Jewish family. Decent, kind, and generous. But lacking the confidence that their upper-middle class counterparts in Ottawa exhibited. The black kids in the school jived and danced in the school hallways. They dressed differently too. No white kids were either joining them or egging them on as part of an appreciative audience. Translation for protected, patriotic white Americans: the black and white kids were not talking to each other.
I ended up in a small private residence of University students and a few of the older high school students. The Vietnam War was the only item on the discussion table (1970). That was an eye-opener and was among the first of many experiences that underlined the heterogeneity of Americans both socially and politically. There might have been one brown person. There were no blacks in that crowd. None.
I will concede though that ABCs have integrated well into White America. Better than what I typically observe here in Canada.
You arrived in the US towards the end of separate, but equal segregation. There were two things that were the primary intersection of different cultures back then, Music and The Draft / The War. Jimi inspired so much hope for a permanent bridge at the time, but it quickly fell apart upon his death. That left war.
If you had landed in SoCal in 1970 instead of Syracuse, you might have had a very different first impression of the US. You would have found a vastly different and diverse culture in SoCal in 1970. As someone who graduated from HS in 1970, moving east from California to Philly in November 1968 was like going backwards in time 10 years for me. I doubt that the differences in the east between Syracuse and Philly were large in regards to cultural development and I likely would have felt the same way if I moved to upstate NY instead. Maybe 15 years backwards in time but no matter, still backwards. In essence, I found that the Civil War was still going on on the other side of the Rockies and that racial and ethnic discrimination was alive and well back east. And upon arrival at my HS in suburban Philly I encountered my first taste of real ethnic discrimination on a personal level in the cafeteria at lunch time. I've told this story before here several times, but your comments about the lack of confidence that you noticed regarding your host Jewish family makes it relevant.
So I'm the new kid in school, the surfer from SoCal. Hard to keep a low profile in a school with only 600 students. The first ones to really be warm and hospitable where the Jewish kids. So I started to sit with them at lunch and make new friends. Within a week, someone came up to me and asked me if I knew who I was hanging out with. I said no and something to the effect of what difference does it make ? I was informed that they were Jewish and that I should not hang out with them because it is something that people like me just don't do. Kinda turned my head around a couple of times and had me wondering just where in hell I had landed and what was going on in Philly. It was very a prevalent attitude throughout the east back then as I was to find out later. It is still tough being Jewish here in the US and getting tougher than ever with Antisemitism gaining a new foothold in mainstream democrat politics. Religion was very low on the social grading scale out west in California back then and through the rest of the century as confirmed by my wife's arrival here in 2001 from SoCal. It was here in Cleveland that she found out that she was very Irish all of a sudden. Din't even matter and was never made a big deal before in her life. The east is still different from the west in some ways ethnically speaking. I am keenly aware of the plight of being Jewish in America having worked in a Jewish family business for the past 23 years as of this month. I can call myself Jewish by association as the saying goes around here working in one of the most Jewish neighborhoods in the US, Beachwood, Ohio.
There is another reason that you found that the only item on the discussion table in Syracuse was Viet Nam in 1970. It was called the draft. Every US male. regardless of color faced it. Once you reached HS, you became very aware that upon graduation you had several choices to make. Go on to college and get that 2 S deferment, knock up your girlfriend, get married, have babies and get a 3 A, enlist or wait to be drafted, try to get a Conscientious Objector 1 O, split to Canada, declare yourself homosexual or go to jail refusing to be inducted, ala Muhammad Ali. That is what a US male had to look forward to upon entering HS through 1974 until the draft was shut down. Very different from a Canadian male at the same time. You did not have to go through HS with the anticipation of dying in a rice paddy in Nam upon graduation, did you ? How do you think your life might be different had you faced that growing up as a child ? We had skin in the game. We had to pay very close attention to politics from a very early age.
I feel that the US culture as a whole finally began to merge in the summer of 1973 and the regional differences started fading somewhat. The war was over and people began to focus on other things that brought us to where we are today. We have come a long way. There is still more to do.
OK, I get it, you are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Assimilation is successful and especially "successful" if the message is forcefully repeated often enough.
Move to Bulgaria and your descendants will eventually become Bulgarians. Move to Portugal and they will eventually become Portuguese. If one population enters another's realm in numbers insufficient to completely take over it gets assimilated...or the populations segregate and remain a source of tension and strife.
Like the Mongols conquered China...and got assimilated into Chinese culture. Like waves of eastern European refugees. came into France...and got assimilated. It's human. It's...normal.
Because the alternative is generally much, much worse. The Jews of Europe. The Balkans. Chinese in southeast Asia. Rwanda.
Contrast the continuing conflict in Belgium between the Walloons and Flemish with the Walloon community in Wisconsin. You didn't realize there was a large Walloon community in Wisconsin? That's because it isn't a source of conflictâthey assimilated.
Peaceful segregation exists (as in Switzerland) but it's pretty rare. The fate of Quebec is still an open question. There is a large population of French/Creole speakers in Louisiana. They aren't trying to secede from the US. They've assimilated. Cajun is a flavor of American.
Not sure what about this bothers you, but it sure does seem to wind your knickers.
Forced assimilation doesn't have a very good track record; native boarding schools, for instance. Not just a Canadian thing, they failed here too. And in Australia.
Might be interesting to hear from our Kiwi readers. New Zealand seems to be one of the more-successful examples of assimilation, but there's probably more to the story than we see from a distance.
Nice argument on American Natives being a sovereign government entity. I guess that excuses and rationalizes the resource taking . Apparently, American Natives do not count in the happy assimilation picture. I agree, it is important to control the score card.
I'm curious what you think the 'ownership' of those resources is. And what you think a rational and workable solution would be to a resource that is in demand and requires management to ensure it's continuation as a resource (management that has been demonstrably lacking from tribal governments).
islander: I am tripping over this statement: "(management that has been demonstrably lacking from tribal governments). "
Please explain. White anglers constantly complain how irresponsible First Nations are in regards to fisheries here in British Columbia. Most of it is based on unscientific, populist notions of what constitutes good fisheries management.
As for a rational and workable solutions:
1) leave fish rights in the hands of Native American communities. Let US anglers and their governments negotiate access to those fish.
2) Adopt the Quebec approach to intensively managing high-demand public fisheries via co-management arrangements with First Nations. Convert the allocation mechanisms from 'zero sum' to 'win win'.
More generally, use freemarket capitalism methods to assess economic outcomes. Stop using methods that are favoured by structuralists, Neo-Marxists and self-interested special interests that attempt to bamboozle the public. Economic impact estimates from Input-Output models simply do not cut it.
Nice argument on American Natives being a sovereign government entity. I guess that excuses and rationalizes the resource taking . Apparently, American Natives do not count in the happy assimilation picture. I agree, it is important to control the score card.
I'm curious what you think the 'ownership' of those resources is. And what you think a rational and workable solution would be to a resource that is in demand and requires management to ensure it's continuation as a resource (management that has been demonstrably lacking from tribal governments).
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those.
lazy8 wrote: C. Um...salmon. Right. whatever.
Of course, who cares about fish? And who really cares about American Natives? Why not trample their rights? And of course, it is natural to replace owned and managed resources with culturally superior open access chaos. From a perspective of possessive individualism and the 'freedom ideology', perhaps Americans have no choice but to be anti-ecological and to run things at an economic loss.
Have I been there? Yes, I have been places in the good ol' USA you have not been lazy8.
I don't play with Spanish words, I actually speak, read and write (albeit poorly) the language. I worked as a UFW AFL-CIO volunteer organizer in outskirts of Phoenix, Az and then in L.A.
There is nothing wrong with the dude and dudettes from the (mostly white) suburbs diggin' the exotic variety in the ethnic restaurants and festivals. Perhaps you and your friends have lead groups in fist pumps and chants of ¡Si se puede! For added authenticity of course.....
You're still not clear. Yes, there are ethnic neighborhoods and yes there are people afraid of them. What's your point?
In this context, who indeed cares about fish? You're bringing up a legal dispute between sovereign government entities as if it's relevant to a discussion of diversity.
You have, apparently, no idea where I've beenâbut that's not exactly relevant here either. Did your time in the barrios give you an appreciation for the broader culture that surrounds them, tolerates them, and in time comes to celebrate them? Sounds like you missed that.
OK, I get it, you are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Assimilation is successful and especially "successful" if the message is forcefully repeated often enough.
Nice argument on American Natives being a sovereign government entity. I guess that excuses and rationalizes the resource taking . Apparently, American Natives do not count in the happy assimilation picture. I agree, it is important to control the score card.
Lazy8, I am well aware of the cultural diversity in the USA. That started at an early age when in Grade 9 I participated in an exchange High School band trip to Syracuse, New York. My hosts were a very modest, working class Jewish family. Decent, kind, and generous. But lacking the confidence that their upper-middle class counterparts in Ottawa exhibited.
The black kids in the school jived and danced in the school hallways. They dressed differently too. No white kids were either joining them or egging them on as part of an appreciative audience. Translation for protected, patriotic white Americans: the black and white kids were not talking to each other.
I ended up in a small private residence of University students and a few of the older high school students. The Vietnam War was the only item on the discussion table (1970). That was an eye-opener and was among the first of many experiences that underlined the heterogeneity of Americans both socially and politically. There might have been one brown person. There were no blacks in that crowd. None.
I will concede though that ABCs have integrated well into White America. Better than what I typically observe here in Canada.
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those...
Yes, there are neighborhoods like you describe in so-called "inner cities" throughout the US, but often with the exception of purchasing contraband or being a parole officer, there are few reasons why any non-resident of those neighborhoods would want to go into those neighborhoods - regardless of their race or ethnicity. It's not a matter of "refusing" to enter - there is simply no reason to be there - they don't "belong" there. Still, that doesn't nullify the occurrences of assimilation - those areas are much more the exception than they are the norm.
Nice try. But most interesting in the context of a discussion of 'happy assimilation'.
Oh, okay, I wasn't thinking of it in the context of it only being "happy". There are differences in what could be called "voluntary" or "non-voluntary" assimilation. That is a different discussion I guess.
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those...
Yes, there are neighborhoods like you describe in so-called "inner cities" throughout the US, but often with the exception of purchasing contraband or being a parole officer, there are few reasons why any non-resident of those neighborhoods would want to go into those neighborhoods - regardless of their race or ethnicity. It's not a matter of "refusing" to enter - there is simply no reason to be there - they don't "belong" there. Still, that doesn't nullify the occurrences of assimilation - those areas are much more the exception than they are the norm.
Nice try. But most interesting in the context of a discussion of 'happy assimilation'.
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those.
lazy8 wrote: C. Um...salmon. Right. whatever.
Of course, who cares about fish? And who really cares about American Natives? Why not trample their rights? And of course, it is natural to replace owned and managed resources with culturally superior open access chaos. From a perspective of possessive individualism and the 'freedom ideology', perhaps Americans have no choice but to be anti-ecological and to run things at an economic loss.
Have I been there? Yes, I have been places in the good ol' USA you have not been lazy8.
I don't play with Spanish words, I actually speak, read and write (albeit poorly) the language. I worked as a UFW AFL-CIO volunteer organizer in outskirts of Phoenix, Az and then in L.A.
There is nothing wrong with the dude and dudettes from the (mostly white) suburbs diggin' the exotic variety in the ethnic restaurants and festivals. Perhaps you and your friends have lead groups in fist pumps and chants of ¡Si se puede! For added authenticity of course.....
You're still not clear. Yes, there are ethnic neighborhoods and yes there are people afraid of them. What's your point?
In this context, who indeed cares about fish? You're bringing up a legal dispute between sovereign government entities as if it's relevant to a discussion of diversity.
You have, apparently, no idea where I've beenâbut that's not exactly relevant here either. Did your time in the barrios give you an appreciation for the broader culture that surrounds them, tolerates them, and in time comes to celebrate them? Sounds like you missed that.
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those...
Yes, there are neighborhoods like you describe in so-called "inner cities" throughout the US, but often with the exception of purchasing contraband or being a parole officer, there are few reasons why any non-resident of those neighborhoods would want to go into those neighborhoods - regardless of their race or ethnicity. It's not a matter of "refusing" to enter - there is simply no reason to be there - they don't "belong" there. Still, that doesn't nullify the occurrences of assimilation - those areas are much more the exception than they are the norm.
A. You've got a lot packed into this post, so much that it's leaking like a port-a-potty at a chili cook-off. And it's a bit incoherent and I'm a bit busy. I'll do my best with limited time and patience.
B. Falls short of what, exactly? Are "ethnic/racial group-dominated neighbourhoods" supposed to be a good or bad thing? Not clear what you're on about. .......
Right. Let me clearer. There are numerous Latino and Black American neighbourhoods in the USA where most white and Asian Americans refuse to enter. Some Latinos and Blacks too. A lot of these neighbourhoods are actually a lot safer than the rep pretends but some street skills and experience help, and most regular folks do not possess those.
lazy8 wrote: C. Um...salmon. Right. whatever.
Of course, who cares about fish? And who really cares about American Natives? Why not trample their rights? And of course, it is natural to replace owned and managed resources with culturally superior open access chaos. From a perspective of possessive individualism and the 'freedom ideology', perhaps Americans have no choice but to be anti-ecological and to run things at an economic loss.
Have I been there? Yes, I have been places in the good ol' USA you have not been lazy8.
I don't play with Spanish words, I actually speak, read and write (albeit poorly) the language. I worked as a UFW AFL-CIO volunteer organizer in outskirts of Phoenix, Az and then in L.A.
There is nothing wrong with the dude and dudettes from the (mostly white) suburbs diggin' the exotic variety in the ethnic restaurants and festivals. Perhaps you and your friends have lead groups in fist pumps and chants of ¡Si se puede! For added authenticity of course..... ;-)
It's a little early in the season, but we could still go out and try to catch a salmon. They have closed razor clams, crab isn't for another couple months, but shrimp looks like it will have a couple of days in May. Let me know who you want to offend with your meal.
Oh, Imma get me some seafood, fear not. And some Kenyan food. And Thai. And oh my dog don't get me started.
Tell you what: I'll be in Seattle for Northwest Folklife the end of next month. When I'm not dancing I'll be soaking up music. Meet me there and I'll gladly give you a tour. If you don't have a great time I'll buy you lunch.
My favorite is the Kenyan food truck but I'm sure there's something new to try.
It's a little early in the season, but we could still go out and try to catch a salmon. They have closed razor clams, crab isn't for another couple months, but shrimp looks like it will have a couple of days in May. Let me know who you want to offend with your meal.
A. How about language, shared cultural experiences, social capital, crime, violence? All these criteria are far more meaningful that just food. Recall the initial assertion: "2. True diversity of population and assimilation of culture perhaps the best in the world "
B. The population is diverse and the assimilation process is remarkable but it falls far short, witness the ethnic/racial group-dominated neighbourhoods.
C. You are still screwin' American natives over. Are they assimilating? In some cases, yes. In others, not as much. BTW, does 'assimilation' imply 'happiness'?
C. Check out the de Boldt decision on Washington state Pacific salmon runs. Half went to the tribes, the other half went to the 'public', primarily recreational fishermen. That happened in 1974. That was a legal taking. Theft. And kinda stoopid from the perspective of the entitled settlers, immigrants and their descendants. Stoopid in that the fisheries are all open access.
D. Are you assimilating Black Americans one-dead Black American male at a time? Would you argue that the no-go zones in American cities for most whites and other outsiders signal successful 'assimilation'? How did successful assimilation contribute to creating the most violent country among the rich, developed countries?
E. Besides, is assimilation really a desirable characteristic of nation-building? A common language or languages is important. Economic and political integration is very important. 'Assimilation'? If you do indeed love cultural variety, would you not want your communities to retain as much of their unique character as possible?
F. Why would a self-professed Libertarian want to impose his culture on others?
A. You've got a lot packed into this post, so much that it's leaking like a port-a-potty at a chili cook-off. And it's a bit incoherent and I'm a bit busy. I'll do my best with limited time and patience.
B. Falls short of what, exactly? Are "ethnic/racial group-dominated neighbourhoods" supposed to be a good or bad thing? Not clear what you're on about.
If they're supposed to be a good thing then hoo-ray, we got 'em. They don't last forever tho. They integrate, they gentrify, they slowly become part of the fabric of the rest of the community and other groups move in and people whine about it because that kosher butcher shop they loved is now a bodega or a dim sum place. If they're supposed to be a bad thing then you can take solace in that, but I have to ask if you ever been here. Honestly, your rant betrays either an enormous ignorance of the diversity available here or an irrational fear of it, and I can't tell which.
Assimilation means acceptance. It means contributing to the larger community. It means opportunity. It means many things, but happiness is for each to define themselves and for each to pursue. Diversity gives us more ways to pursue it. Draw your own conclusions I guess.
C. Um...salmon. Right. whatever.
D. Assimilation is a process that takes generations. It has enemies, and in the case of black people those enemies have slowed that process. They haven't stopped it. They can't. White kids venerate rappers. Black kids grow up to play in symphony orchestras. They meet, they merge, the edges blur.
E. Do you want a common language or do you want language diversity? We got both, pendejo. I have to repeat: have you even been here? Have you walked around Los Angeles, Seattle, Denver, Miami? The vibrancy of cultures rubbing into one another, interbreeding, alloying makes diverse places incredibly dynamic. Art, music, culture of all kinds. Living where I do I get starved for all that and I go to places like San Francisco and just wallow in it. Yes, assimilation is desirable. It's also inevitable unless someone takes extraordinary steps to stop it. It's human.
F. A self-professed Libertarian wants people to be free, to make their own cultural choices, to integrate what works from other cultures into their own, to share their culture as they like. When two cultures meet they both change. That's assimilation.
Tell you what: I'll be in Seattle for Northwest Folklife the end of next month. When I'm not dancing I'll be soaking up music. Meet me there and I'll gladly give you a tour. If you don't have a great time I'll buy you lunch.
My favorite is the Kenyan food truck but I'm sure there's something new to try.
