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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Tax the Rich! Page: 1, 2  Next
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haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 9:02pm

City Council property levies are pretty high here and I do have value for money issues, particularly with my local council, but I'm in favour of paying taxes for services. The worst thing here though, imo, is "Stamp Duty" where you have to pay a butt-load of money up on top of your down payment when you buy a house. It does mean, however, that the ongoing drain over time is lower. One really good thing though, is that government policy supports keeping people in their houses as long as possible because it is more cost effective than aged care. So a friend gets oxygen delivered to her home, and help paying for cleaners and gardeners to keep the place up. If she does have to go into care, they have a sort of reverse mortgage scheme that pays for the care but still leaves some for inheritance. Her kids will do well because her tiny place in the CBD is worth more than mine because of the location.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 5:15pm

Re: Property taxes.

I have seen this movie before.

Back in the day in a place once known as California there was a vote on what is known as Prop 13

A large contributor to Proposition 13 was the sentiment that older Californians should not be priced out of their homes through high taxes. The proposition has been called the "third rail" (meaning "untouchable subject") of California politics, and it is not popular politically for lawmakers to attempt to change it.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 3:47pm

 cc_rider wrote:
 islander wrote:

I don't recall ever seeing a mil levy go down, so yeah.   Also, I don't ever recall seeing a government body say 'we have enough money, let's stop collecting taxes'.   I have a 'friend' who is staunchly anti-tax and anti-government. He works for the state transportation department and brags about how he buys truckloads of gear with leftover budget money even though they don't need it. I can barely converse with him because it feels like he lives on the other side of a hyper-hypocritical barrier that my world view cant really perceive. 
Perzactly.

We just got our appraisal - up $140K in one year. We'll appeal.

Texas' tax structure is painfully regressive. Property taxes go up and up every year, regardless of the homeowners' ability to pay. State income tax is the third rail of Texas politics, but thousands of people are being forced out of their homes because their taxes have skyrocketed, but their income hasn't. And you wonder why we have a homeless problem?
c.
 

buy an old car and put it up on blocks in the front yard

and quit mowing your lawn!
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 8:52am

 cc_rider wrote:

Zero. Point. Zero.
c.


So property values mean nothing, as they are merely the part of the formula the state/local government is willing to change.  That's not real value...thus it isn't truly associated with any economic increase (other than the cost of running the government).

The fact you can appeal is the amusing aspect.  If values stayed the same and the rates increased 15%, there's nothing you can do about it.  California (as usual) is the foil...they set value at purchase and leave it there until you sell the house.  People then run into the problem of not being able to move.  I knew someone who had a home they paid $500k for that was worth $1.5M. They wanted to move to another part of town and replace their home for similar value, but their taxes would triple.  

With all due respect, they are driving values because A) most people feel at least partially good about the "news" their home is worth more, and B) most people aren't smart enough to evaluate the real increase.    When the shit finally hits the fan....take all of the pain at once and adjust the rates while lowering valuations.  Rinse, repeat.
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 8:41am

 rgio wrote:

What were the changes in your tax rates this year?


Zero. Point. Zero.
c.

rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 8:30am

 cc_rider wrote:
Perzactly.

We just got our appraisal - up $140K in one year. We'll appeal.

Texas' tax structure is painfully regressive. Property taxes go up and up every year, regardless of the homeowners' ability to pay. State income tax is the third rail of Texas politics, but thousands of people are being forced out of their homes because their taxes have skyrocketed, but their income hasn't. And you wonder why we have a homeless problem?
c.



What were the changes in your tax rates this year?

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 8:25am

 islander wrote:

I don't recall ever seeing a mil levy go down, so yeah.   Also, I don't ever recall seeing a government body say 'we have enough money, let's stop collecting taxes'.   I have a 'friend' who is staunchly anti-tax and anti-government. He works for the state transportation department and brags about how he buys truckloads of gear with leftover budget money even though they don't need it. I can barely converse with him because it feels like he lives on the other side of a hyper-hypocritical barrier that my world view cant really perceive. 
Perzactly.

We just got our appraisal - up $140K in one year. We'll appeal.

Texas' tax structure is painfully regressive. Property taxes go up and up every year, regardless of the homeowners' ability to pay. State income tax is the third rail of Texas politics, but thousands of people are being forced out of their homes because their taxes have skyrocketed, but their income hasn't. And you wonder why we have a homeless problem?
c.


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 7:42am

 cc_rider wrote:

I don't care who you are, that's some funny stuff right there.
c.


I don't recall ever seeing a mil levy go down, so yeah.   Also, I don't ever recall seeing a government body say 'we have enough money, let's stop collecting taxes'.   I have a 'friend' who is staunchly anti-tax and anti-government. He works for the state transportation department and brags about how he buys truckloads of gear with leftover budget money even though they don't need it. I can barely converse with him because it feels like he lives on the other side of a hyper-hypocritical barrier that my world view cant really perceive. 
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 7:34am

 rgio wrote:

Rising property values don't impact most people's real estate taxes, as the rate is based on the revenue required over total property values.  If all values increase 5%, and the expense of the government went up 2%.... your taxes would only increase 2%.  There are obviously winners and losers every time there is a re-assessment or change, but property value increases have little to do with real estate tax growth.


I don't care who you are, that's some funny stuff right there.
c.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 7:15am

 rgio wrote:

It's not just Trump.  States have been giving money away to "create jobs" for years, and those programs NEVER reward the local community.   I negotiated several of them for a former employer, and they are literally taxpayer-funded campaign fodder.  They are a terrible deal, but people who don't know any better see "the Governor created XXXX jobs" and believe it.



Yep. Boeing got billions here and subsequently shrunk operations and moved jobs to other lower cost areas.  Now their tax payer funded infrastructure sits underutilized and the revenues from the expected jobs/operations are no where to be seen.   At least Amazons money does trickle around if you are in the right place. 


rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 7:02am

 maryte wrote:

Sales tax (another regressive tax) is 8.25% here in Austin/Travis County. And the high property taxes are made worse in some areas of Texas (like Austin/Travis County) by skyrocketing property values.  People often think increasing property values is always a good thing.  If you want to sell your house (or flip a property), sure.  If you want to actually live in the house and, maybe, just maybe, retire in it, not so much.



Rising property values don't impact most people's real estate taxes, as the rate is based on the revenue required over total property values.  If all values increase 5%, and the expense of the government went up 2%.... your taxes would only increase 2%.  There are obviously winners and losers every time there is a re-assessment or change, but property value increases have little to do with real estate tax growth.

maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 6:32am

 rgio wrote:

Your property taxes are lower than NJ, and we have an income tax rate of up to 10.5%, none of which is deductible because of the state and local (SALT) limit of $10k.  Texas is only behind NJ and NH in terms of property tax rate per % of home value.

I live in the town I was raised and am seriously thinking about crossing over to PA (10 mins away).  


EDIT- you have to look at all taxes...sales tax, gas tax, etc.  Texas sales tax is high at 8.19% avg.  NJ is 6.6%

Sales tax (another regressive tax) is 8.25% here in Austin/Travis County. And the high property taxes are made worse in some areas of Texas (like Austin/Travis County) by skyrocketing property values.  People often think increasing property values is always a good thing.  If you want to sell your house (or flip a property), sure.  If you want to actually live in the house and, maybe, just maybe, retire in it, not so much.


rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 6:17am

 davidharper wrote:

because of the Trump tax cuts these companies paid zero income tax for 2018 ;

    Amazon
    Chevron
    Levi-Strauss
    Netflix
    Delta airlines
    General Motors
    Halliburton  
    IBM
    Goodyear
    Honeywell
    Occidental Petrolium

and this is only a small sample          


It's not just Trump.  States have been giving money away to "create jobs" for years, and those programs NEVER reward the local community.   I negotiated several of them for a former employer, and they are literally taxpayer-funded campaign fodder.  They are a terrible deal, but people who don't know any better see "the Governor created XXXX jobs" and believe it.

davidharper



Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 6:07am

because of the Trump tax cuts these companies paid zero income tax for 2018 ;

    Amazon
    Chevron
    Levi-Strauss
    Netflix
    Delta airlines
    General Motors
    Halliburton  
    IBM
    Goodyear
    Honeywell
    Occidental Petrolium

and this is only a small sample          
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 6:00am

 maryte wrote:


It's incredible to me how many people think it's great that Texas has no income tax (which is progressive) without realizing how horrifying (and MUCH higher) our property taxes (a regressive tax) are.  We'll get a small break when dio turns 65, but it's bad enough that I'm considering where we might move when we retire, as the ever-increasing property taxes here will be taking an ever-increasing portion of retirement money, whereas an income tax would not.

Your property taxes are lower than NJ, and we have an income tax rate of up to 10.5%, none of which is deductible because of the state and local (SALT) limit of $10k.  Texas is only behind NJ and NH in terms of property tax rate per % of home value.

I live in the town I was raised and am seriously thinking about crossing over to PA (10 mins away).  


EDIT- you have to look at all taxes...sales tax, gas tax, etc.  Texas sales tax is high at 8.19% avg.  NJ is 6.6%
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 5:55am

 islander wrote:


 
 
It's incredible to me how few people know what their effective tax rate is. Also what it goes to (especially property taxes).



It's incredible to me how many people think it's great that Texas has no income tax (which is progressive) without realizing how horrifying (and MUCH higher) our property taxes (a regressive tax) are.  We'll get a small break when dio turns 65, but it's bad enough that I'm considering where we might move when we retire, as the ever-increasing property taxes here will be taking an ever-increasing portion of retirement money, whereas an income tax would not.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 5:39am

 miamizsun wrote:

maybe the tax code is crazy for a reason? lol

complexity always hurts the little guy and the nebulous mass of that code gives cover to corruption

it's a mess and a ton of time, money and resources are tossed down that rabbit hole

might be time for a simplified tax system
with a prebate

There are too many lobbyists supporting the tax industry to allow this to happen.

I have been working in and out of the tax industry for 40 years, and returns this year are so foolishly complex that it's mind-numbing.   The less money you make, the harder it is to comply.  The countless forms and their interdependencies grow and grow.  Now health insurance premiums and stimulus and educational credits...etc....etc...all funnel through the forms. 

I just saw on CNBC that the Biden cap gain rates will be in the mid 50% range in NY, NJ and CA, and one tax think-tank calculated the move would cost money (not generate revenue), because the hyper-rich will change their income type to avoid the tax (I assume turn cap gain income to ordinary).

The tax problem now is that it doesn't need to be bigger....or smaller...it needs to be better.  Efficiency is a threat to every job on the planet, and government workers are not going to improve themselves out of existence.  Real change is going to require a tech-savvy leadership that can implement real change.  It's happened in most of the world, but the US has been too stable for too long, and hasn't prioritized tax system upgrades.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2021 - 4:13am

 islander wrote:
I frequently have this argument discussion with people. It makes me crazy.  Financial literacy should be required education.
 
maybe the tax code is crazy for a reason? lol

complexity always hurts the little guy and the nebulous mass of that code gives cover to corruption

it's a mess and a ton of time, money and resources are tossed down that rabbit hole

might be time for a simplified tax system with a prebate
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 22, 2021 - 6:38pm

Biden to float historic tax increase on investment gains for the rich
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 5, 2019 - 8:24am



ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 islander wrote:


 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 Red_Dragon wrote:
 

It's incredible how many wealthy people think they're being asked to pay XX% of everything. I remember Joan Rivers saying on national TV that she paid accountants to find tax dodges and voted republican because her tax rate was (whatever) and "I'll be damned if I'm going to pay 2/3 of my income to taxes." or something like that.
 
It's incredible to me how few people know what their effective tax rate is. Also what it goes to (especially property taxes).

 

I worked with a guy who was pretty senior in the union, and Christmas was coming up. He had the option of working 4 paid holidays between then and the end of the year, raking in double time and also picking up some other shifts and I was more than a little bit jealous, but then he said he couldn't work it because it would push him into the next tax bracket and he'd wind up losing money.




I frequently have this argument discussion with people. It makes me crazy.  Financial literacy should be required education.


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