[ ]   [ ]   [ ]                        [ ]      [ ]   [ ]

Bug Reports & Feature Requests - gtufano - Jun 19, 2019 - 11:38pm
 
volcano! - islander - Jun 19, 2019 - 9:39pm
 
Trump - kurtster - Jun 19, 2019 - 7:26pm
 
Immigration - R_P - Jun 19, 2019 - 7:02pm
 
Name My Band - Red_Dragon - Jun 19, 2019 - 6:56pm
 
Export rated songs playlist - ruby2zday - Jun 19, 2019 - 6:43pm
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - R_P - Jun 19, 2019 - 5:35pm
 
Radio Paradise Comments - JrzyTmata - Jun 19, 2019 - 5:12pm
 
Baseball, anyone? - zevon - Jun 19, 2019 - 4:45pm
 
Redundancy - oldviolin - Jun 19, 2019 - 3:15pm
 
Installing Dishwashers is NOT Easy - Or in Our Case, Even... - oldviolin - Jun 19, 2019 - 1:03pm
 
New Music - R_P - Jun 19, 2019 - 12:32pm
 
OUR CATS!! - Proclivities - Jun 19, 2019 - 10:40am
 
Graphs, Charts & Maps - sirdroseph - Jun 19, 2019 - 10:24am
 
Things You Thought Today - islander - Jun 19, 2019 - 7:52am
 
Anti-War - miamizsun - Jun 19, 2019 - 7:46am
 
Thorium Power - miamizsun - Jun 19, 2019 - 7:44am
 
Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - Red_Dragon - Jun 19, 2019 - 6:39am
 
Things I Saw Today... - - Jun 19, 2019 - 4:26am
 
Song Lyrics - sirdroseph - Jun 19, 2019 - 3:07am
 
Counting with Pictures - yuel - Jun 19, 2019 - 12:49am
 
Flower Pictures - yuel - Jun 19, 2019 - 12:29am
 
Way Cool Video - miamizsun - Jun 18, 2019 - 2:54pm
 
Banksy! - - Jun 18, 2019 - 2:37pm
 
Dangerous Bus Stop - - Jun 18, 2019 - 2:10pm
 
Tech & Science - R_P - Jun 18, 2019 - 10:44am
 
Iran - R_P - Jun 18, 2019 - 8:43am
 
Bob Dylan - sirdroseph - Jun 18, 2019 - 8:33am
 
Why Everything You Believe Is Immoral, Irresponsible, Irr... - Proclivities - Jun 18, 2019 - 6:41am
 
American Oil Strikes Again - westslope - Jun 18, 2019 - 2:20am
 
HomeKit HomePod AppleTV - gtufano - Jun 18, 2019 - 12:57am
 
Music News - R_P - Jun 17, 2019 - 3:07pm
 
Live Music - R_P - Jun 17, 2019 - 2:47pm
 
Tesla (motors, batteries, etc) - miamizsun - Jun 17, 2019 - 12:41pm
 
Getting RP in For iPad Mini 2 - Ian_and_Annie - Jun 17, 2019 - 10:12am
 
Recommended documentaries - sirdroseph - Jun 17, 2019 - 10:02am
 
Great guitar faces - Proclivities - Jun 17, 2019 - 7:02am
 
How's the weather? - miamizsun - Jun 17, 2019 - 4:43am
 
Other Medical Stuff - Antigone - Jun 17, 2019 - 2:56am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - rmgman - Jun 16, 2019 - 5:22pm
 
Climate Change - R_P - Jun 16, 2019 - 2:46pm
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - oldviolin - Jun 16, 2019 - 2:12pm
 
Those Lovable Policemen - R_P - Jun 16, 2019 - 1:02pm
 
Trump Lies - westslope - Jun 16, 2019 - 11:59am
 
Race in America - kurtster - Jun 15, 2019 - 6:50pm
 
President Elizabeth Warren - hayduke2 - Jun 15, 2019 - 10:23am
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Jun 14, 2019 - 7:55pm
 
Poetry Forum - Antigone - Jun 14, 2019 - 6:51pm
 
Photoshop Help please - echols - Jun 14, 2019 - 5:06pm
 
Rock mix miss you - Arc_Light - Jun 14, 2019 - 4:31pm
 
Fake News*  ?  ! - miamizsun - Jun 14, 2019 - 3:52pm
 
First World Problems - miamizsun - Jun 14, 2019 - 2:59pm
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - R_P - Jun 14, 2019 - 2:47pm
 
Weird sounds - Red_Dragon - Jun 14, 2019 - 11:17am
 
Weight Loss Discussions - westslope - Jun 14, 2019 - 9:21am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Jun 14, 2019 - 8:08am
 
Basketball, anyone? Hello? Hello? - Proclivities - Jun 14, 2019 - 6:04am
 
Talk Behind Their Backs Forum - sunybuny - Jun 14, 2019 - 5:38am
 
war is a racket - islander - Jun 13, 2019 - 9:43pm
 
Canada - westslope - Jun 13, 2019 - 3:55pm
 
Hockey + Fantasy Hockey - SeriousLee - Jun 13, 2019 - 3:17pm
 
Outstanding Covers - SeriousLee - Jun 13, 2019 - 3:15pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Jun 13, 2019 - 2:52pm
 
Favorite Quotes - oldviolin - Jun 13, 2019 - 1:42pm
 
Thought For The Day - oldviolin - Jun 13, 2019 - 1:40pm
 
Brain-Boosting (memory enhancement) - Proclivities - Jun 13, 2019 - 1:34pm
 
Overheard - SeriousLee - Jun 13, 2019 - 1:23pm
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - SeriousLee - Jun 13, 2019 - 1:17pm
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - oldviolin - Jun 13, 2019 - 12:05pm
 
Regarding dogs - oldviolin - Jun 13, 2019 - 11:08am
 
Democratic Party - Red_Dragon - Jun 13, 2019 - 10:06am
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - black321 - Jun 13, 2019 - 7:19am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Jun 12, 2019 - 2:29pm
 
Bit Rate Resolution in BlueSound? - black321 - Jun 12, 2019 - 2:08pm
 
The russian guy in "Thanks for listening" - BillG - Jun 12, 2019 - 1:52pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 21, 22, 23  Next
Post to this Topic
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 19, 2019 - 7:02pm

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2019 - 6:51am

California to become the first state to extend health benefits to some who live in USA illegally

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/california-become-first-state-extend-132010832.html

 

 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 8:30pm

islander wrote:
The problem always gets down to who sets the standard, and why are they setting that particular standard. Then there is the follow up of who gets to judge if it has been met. 
Saudi until recently didn't let women drive, so no Saudi women could get in?  What college issued the degree, who accredited them.  Also why college degree for immigrants?  Are we welcoming to people fleeing oppressive violence, but only if they study up?  Vocational people can live with oppression?

Not saying we shouldn't have any standards, but we need to consider what they are and more importantly WHY we are applying them.  To my eyes and ears, it often seems to be lip service to an ideal, but in reality it is used actively to leave out the 'others' who we are uncomfortable with.  Lately this seems even more so, or at least the voices shouting 'stay out' to the uncomfortable others are getting louder.

Personally, I'm reacting the other direction just to distance myself from that crowd. If I ever find myself on the same side of the street as the people I actively dislike, it's time for some serious introspection and likely a change of my position.

The current leadership  is not the real problem, it just makes the real problem obvious. Previous presidents could have done the same—and that's the real problem.

Our legislative branch is too spineless to deal with the problem and trusted to the executive branch to do the right thing—or as right a thing as politics allowed. And that worked, after a fashion, for a long time. Until the executive branch was run by someone determined to do the opposite of the right thing.

It's right and proper to call MAGAmemnon on his betrayal of principles, but Congress needs to shoulder its share of the blame for leaving the tools right there for him to just pick up and use.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 9:16am



 black321 wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  
 
The problem always gets down to who sets the standard, and why are they setting that particular standard. Then there is the follow up of who gets to judge if it has been met. 
Saudi until recently didn't let women drive, so no Saudi women could get in?  What college issued the degree, who accredited them.  Also why college degree for immigrants?  Are we welcoming to people fleeing oppressive violence, but only if they study up?  Vocational people can live with oppression?

Not saying we shouldn't have any standards, but we need to consider what they are and more importantly WHY we are applying them.  To my eyes and ears, it often seems to be lip service to an ideal, but in reality it is used actively to leave out the 'others' who we are uncomfortable with.  Lately this seems even more so, or at least the voices shouting 'stay out' to the uncomfortable others are getting louder.

Personally, I'm reacting the other direction just to distance myself from that crowd. If I ever find myself on the same side of the street as the people I actively dislike, it's time for some serious introspection and likely a change of my position.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 8:39am

black321 wrote:
I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  

A lot of people want it
is not an argument based on the merits, it's an argument for mob rule.

It selects by class, gender, ethnicity, and political privilege, as in most of the world not everybody can go to college. It lets despotic governments decide, in part, our immigration policy. And how do you verify that a diploma is real, assuming the person applying managed to hold on to a diploma while fleeing the barrel bombs that destroyed his college and all its records?

It assigns an arbitrary criterion as a signifier of merit. Get booted out of school the day before graduation and you're nobody, unworthy of entry. By this standard Bill Gates and Paul Allen wouldn't be allowed in—both are college dropouts. As are any number of worthy folk in our history—including 10 US presidents.

We have been, historically, a beacon of opportunity to the rest of the world. Living proof that the desire and ambition to better oneself and one's condition is a sufficient starting point in a free society. Our country was built by outcasts, by misfits, by the oppressed. That foundation has been, y'know...pretty successful.

Along comes a demagogue who knows better. Now the criterion is to be who is the most useful to a particular stratum of our employers.?

And to my original point...there is no discussion at all about the pathetically small quotas we allow in, nothing about the plight of refugees, no recognition that bad leadership wastes human potential—just another example of it.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 7:07am



 Lazy8 wrote:
Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 6, 2019 - 7:52pm

It's Alan Kurdi's birthday.

He'd be 7 years old if he hadn't drowned off the coast of Turkey in 2015, along with his mother, Rehena, and his brother, Galib. The family was trying to get to Greece. They were Kurds, fleeing Syria and unwelcome in Turkey.

What this means to you depends on your reaction to this picture. I won't show it here, no need to shock anybody. But I'm curious what the reaction would be from all the keyboard warriors.

Good riddance
Better him than me
Should have gone through proper channels
Not my problem


What's yours?

Do you mean it?

Could you look his father in the eye and tell it to him?
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2019 - 7:40am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

Most of our ancestors were, literally, outcasts. So the answer to your questions is clearly no.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2019 - 6:56am

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:29am



 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Those are both good articles, thanks.

==============

Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.
 
I'm sure this image has been here at some point, but:

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:24am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Those are both good articles, thanks.

==============

Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

 
i was thinking the same thing on that latter point. 
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:18am

Those are both good articles, thanks.

==============

Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 20, 2019 - 9:09pm

Our behavior in the days before WW2 was shameful.

It's shameful now.

The Heartbreaking, Lifesaving Practice of Welcoming 'Unaccompanied' Child Migrants

A history lesson for Americans


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 20, 2019 - 11:19am

It's the shape of the skull...
Manbird

Manbird Avatar

Location: Oroville, Ca
Gender: Male


Posted: May 19, 2019 - 2:29pm








 Lazy8 wrote:
kurtster wrote:
Ok. We now have open borders. Anyone can come in for any reason. How do we manage it ? How do we manage uncontrolled growth without unlimited resources ?

The point is not to manage it, as we did for long stretches of our history—and still do.

There is an open border between the state of Washington and the state of Oregon. Different laws on both sides, different tax structures, different minimum wage laws, different drivers license tests. You can cross between them any time you want—even if to do so is sometimes a crime, as in when you're on parole or under indictment. If you break a law in Oregon and flee to Washington the police in Washington will (usually) catch you and send you back, even if you are a Washington resident. If you live in one state and work in another (as I do) there are straightforward ways to sort out the taxes. Ditto with insurance, professional licensing, child support and alimony, college tuition...an endless list. It's not that hard.

Mean annual household income is about $10K/year less in Oregon than in Washington—yet Oregon has not emptied into Washington, just as Mexico hasn't emptied into the US, despite it being so easy—no big beautiful wall in the way! They can just walk right in! Hoards of them—rapists, drug dealers, the works!

If you really want to see your concerns addressed in detail I suppose you could read the book, but I'll do my best while I'm stealing an Oregonian's job while collecting unemployment and living off welfare. Was there anything else I was supposed to be doing? Oh yeah—raping and dealing drugs. Dammit, knew I was forgetting something! Maybe next post.
Wasn't urban planning the great lesson learned from the uncontrolled growth of the 60's and 70's; the urban sprawl that came without planning and infrastructure to make it work
properly.

One of the lessons we learned in the '60s and '70s was how seldom urban planners get it right and how often (and how disastrously) they get it wrong, but we're not talking about where to cite shopping centers or how much parking to require around a roller skating rink. These are not remotely similar disciplines but even if they were I wouldn't trust them to make the right calls here.
There is that nasty little 4 letter word that no one wants to use ... PLAN. Planning takes time and coordination of people, property and resources. There is an old saying that I still use when
appropriate ... piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.Ever heard that one before ?

I saw it on a bumper sticker. I was recommending an actual book, but feel free to find reference material that's meaningful to you.
A utopia requires a closed system to protect it.  A welfare state requires a closed system in order to work properly due to finite resources.  So we let in anyone to come and take from us what ever they want without investing and then move on to greener pastures when the proverbial well runs dry and leave the locals who built up everything behind and suffering ?  How do you say no to anything when you have open borders ?  How do you deal with people who want to cause harm ?  How do you deal with the infirmed, the disabled, the uneducated who show up and say take care of me ? 

These are not rhetorical questions.  How about some answers ?  If you want open borders, you'd better have the answers.

Proclaiming opens borders is the same thing as inviting the Vampire into your house.  I happened to be working on the following song when I took a break and came over here to take a peak at the RAFT.

If you want a utopian solution then yes, these are rhetorical questions. There are no utopian solutions.

Some of these problems don't have solutions because they are imaginary, the product of a fevered paranoia about foreigners that seems to be built into the human psyche. That flock-of-ravenous-locusts thing, for instance. We can actually measure things like a propensity toward criminal behavior and we have. Over and over. Immigrants are no more likely than natives to commit crimes (except undocumented immigrants: they are significantly less likely to commit crimes). How do we deal with criminals? Same way we do now: arrest, prosecution, imprisonment.

Funny how nativists always seem to grow an affection for the welfare state when they think foreigners might use it. Foreign nationals not on a citizenship track (non-green-card holders) are not eligible for any federal assistance...even tho (if they are working) they are paying for it. This would be a great incentive for them to buy private insurance...if they were allowed to.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The US was built by waves of immigration, always met with a nativist opposition. My ancestors certainly were—with their swarthy complexions, their incomprehensible language, their terrifying foreign religion, their filthy habits and disgusting foods smelling up the place. I bet yours were too. There is no way to prove that this time you're wrong about how it will turn out...but you (the people barring the door to newcomers) always have been.

Every single time.

But you don't get off the hook so easily either. If you want to maintain and extend a system that causes real human suffering and stands in the way of real people improving their lives you need to justify it.  Make your case. Justify standing in the way of people trying to improve their lives. Justify locking them (and their children) in cages.

But don't just justify it to me, justify it to your own ancestors. Put the same barriers in front of them and see if they make it in. See if their descendants get to survive the bigotry and hostility...only to assimilate and be welcomed to man the barricades against the next set.

I realize that emotional appeals to our basest fears are hard to counter with actual data. That requires reading and interpreting said data. All those words! And numbers! I also realize that the comprehensive approach I want has virtually no chance of happening, but I have to do my part to shift the Overton Window far enough to make room for even the most modest reform.
 


 


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: May 19, 2019 - 5:30am



Today's Anti-Immigration Script Was Written 100 Years Ago by America's Elite

Reason's Nick Gillespie talks to Historian Daniel Okrent whose new book, The Guarded Gate, recounts the history of bigotry, eugenics, and the "intellectual justification" of anti-immigration policies.



Nfld_Waterwitch

Nfld_Waterwitch Avatar

Location: Granite Rock in the Atlantic
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 8:10am


I really enjoyed this. Great points well said. Educational as well.


 Lazy8 wrote:
kurtster wrote:
Ok. We now have open borders. Anyone can come in for any reason. How do we manage it ? How do we manage uncontrolled growth without unlimited resources ?

The point is not to manage it, as we did for long stretches of our history—and still do.

There is an open border between the state of Washington and the state of Oregon. Different laws on both sides, different tax structures, different minimum wage laws, different drivers license tests. You can cross between them any time you want—even if to do so is sometimes a crime, as in when you're on parole or under indictment. If you break a law in Oregon and flee to Washington the police in Washington will (usually) catch you and send you back, even if you are a Washington resident. If you live in one state and work in another (as I do) there are straightforward ways to sort out the taxes. Ditto with insurance, professional licensing, child support and alimony, college tuition...an endless list. It's not that hard.

Mean annual household income is about $10K/year less in Oregon than in Washington—yet Oregon has not emptied into Washington, just as Mexico hasn't emptied into the US, despite it being so easy—no big beautiful wall in the way! They can just walk right in! Hoards of them—rapists, drug dealers, the works!

If you really want to see your concerns addressed in detail I suppose you could read the book, but I'll do my best while I'm stealing an Oregonian's job while collecting unemployment and living off welfare. Was there anything else I was supposed to be doing? Oh yeah—raping and dealing drugs. Dammit, knew I was forgetting something! Maybe next post.
Wasn't urban planning the great lesson learned from the uncontrolled growth of the 60's and 70's; the urban sprawl that came without planning and infrastructure to make it work
properly.

One of the lessons we learned in the '60s and '70s was how seldom urban planners get it right and how often (and how disastrously) they get it wrong, but we're not talking about where to cite shopping centers or how much parking to require around a roller skating rink. These are not remotely similar disciplines but even if they were I wouldn't trust them to make the right calls here.
There is that nasty little 4 letter word that no one wants to use ... PLAN. Planning takes time and coordination of people, property and resources. There is an old saying that I still use when
appropriate ... piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.Ever heard that one before ?

I saw it on a bumper sticker. I was recommending an actual book, but feel free to find reference material that's meaningful to you.
A utopia requires a closed system to protect it.  A welfare state requires a closed system in order to work properly due to finite resources.  So we let in anyone to come and take from us what ever they want without investing and then move on to greener pastures when the proverbial well runs dry and leave the locals who built up everything behind and suffering ?  How do you say no to anything when you have open borders ?  How do you deal with people who want to cause harm ?  How do you deal with the infirmed, the disabled, the uneducated who show up and say take care of me ? 

These are not rhetorical questions.  How about some answers ?  If you want open borders, you'd better have the answers.

Proclaiming opens borders is the same thing as inviting the Vampire into your house.  I happened to be working on the following song when I took a break and came over here to take a peak at the RAFT.

If you want a utopian solution then yes, these are rhetorical questions. There are no utopian solutions.

Some of these problems don't have solutions because they are imaginary, the product of a fevered paranoia about foreigners that seems to be built into the human psyche. That flock-of-ravenous-locusts thing, for instance. We can actually measure things like a propensity toward criminal behavior and we have. Over and over. Immigrants are no more likely than natives to commit crimes (except undocumented immigrants: they are significantly less likely to commit crimes). How do we deal with criminals? Same way we do now: arrest, prosecution, imprisonment.

Funny how nativists always seem to grow an affection for the welfare state when they think foreigners might use it. Foreign nationals not on a citizenship track (non-green-card holders) are not eligible for any federal assistance...even tho (if they are working) they are paying for it. This would be a great incentive for them to buy private insurance...if they were allowed to.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The US was built by waves of immigration, always met with a nativist opposition. My ancestors certainly were—with their swarthy complexions, their incomprehensible language, their terrifying foreign religion, their filthy habits and disgusting foods smelling up the place. I bet yours were too. There is no way to prove that this time you're wrong about how it will turn out...but you (the people barring the door to newcomers) always have been.

Every single time.

But you don't get off the hook so easily either. If you want to maintain and extend a system that causes real human suffering and stands in the way of real people improving their lives you need to justify it.  Make your case. Justify standing in the way of people trying to improve their lives. Justify locking them (and their children) in cages.

But don't just justify it to me, justify it to your own ancestors. Put the same barriers in front of them and see if they make it in. See if their descendants get to survive the bigotry and hostility...only to assimilate and be welcomed to man the barricades against the next set.

I realize that emotional appeals to our basest fears are hard to counter with actual data. That requires reading and interpreting said data. All those words! And numbers! I also realize that the comprehensive approach I want has virtually no chance of happening, but I have to do my part to shift the Overton Window far enough to make room for even the most modest reform.
 


ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 22, 2019 - 12:10pm


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 16, 2019 - 7:50am



 kurtster wrote:

As do I.  I believe I mentioned something similar to this over the years in my rants about Sanctuary Cities, but no matter.

Yep, send them to SF in particular and the Bay Area in general, which includes San José (otherwise known as Silicone Valley).  They were the first to declare themselves SC's and embrace the arrival and protection of illegal immigrants and open defiance of the Federal government and the laws of the land.  Where better for these people ?  This area is one of the wealthiest in the US and self declared most compassionate places in the US when it comes to the plight of the impoverished and downtrodden.  The weather is also more agreeable than say somewhere in the Midwest.  These people have never seen winter.  Exposing them to winter would be cruel and unusual punishment, imho.  The City of San Francisco has even given illegals the right to vote in local elections several years ago.  No place is more prepared to deal with illegals than the SF Bay Area and the State of California in general.  1 million new arrivals right before the 2020 Census will also give California another Congressional seat !  It's a win win !  As you mentioned, one of the underlying yet constantly denied motivations is to increase the Democratic Party voting base.  Better to keep it contained in one place though where the new constituency voice will not be watered down and hold the D's feet to the fire of their own making.

As someone born and raised in the SF Bay Area (and a refugee from), I approve !


 

So, either you've had a change of heart and now agree that immigrants can be a potential benefit to their new settlement region, or you think that they will cause so many problems for your perceived political enemies that you are willing to waffle on your previously stated core belief that borders matter and this is the most important thing.

I know which one I think applies, and I know what it implies about your character.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 15, 2019 - 8:59pm



 kurtster wrote:
It just ain't that simple.

You and your pale blue dot can bite me.
 
Forgive if I am wrong but I think that is precisely what it is doing.

Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 21, 22, 23  Next