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oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2019 - 9:53am



 Lazy8 wrote:

Why a Government Lawyer Argued Against Giving Immigrant Kids Toothbrushes

The sheer effrontery of the government’s argument may be explained, but not excused, by its long backstory.
Ken White, Attorney and former federal prosecutor

The United States’s loathsome argument—that it is “safe and sanitary” to confine children without soap, toothbrushes, dry clothes, and on concrete under bright lights—is morally indefensible. It’s also a spectacularly foolish argument to raise in the famously liberal Ninth Circuit, where the United States should have expected exactly the reception that it got. And even though the litigation began under the Obama administration, it was the Trump administration that elected to bring this appeal and ask the court to bless these inhumane conditions as “safe and sanitary.” That’s an extremely aggressive legal argument, and one that suggests that the disturbing conditions being reported at confinement centers are intentional, not a sign of mere neglect.

It is right and fit to condemn the Trump administration for its argument and its treatment of children. But it’s wrong to think the problem can be cured with a presidential election. Trump will depart; the problem will not depart with him. This administration is merely the latest one to subject immigrant children to abusive conditions. It’s been 35 years since Jenny Flores was strip searched in an adult facility. Before Sarah Fabian defended concrete floors and bright lights for President Trump, she defended putting kids in solitary confinement for President Obama.

The fault lies not with any one administration or politician, but with the culture: the ICE and CBP culture that encourages the abuse, the culture of the legal apologists who defend it, and our culture—a largely indifferent America that hasn’t done a damn thing about it. This stain on America’s soul will not wash out with an election cycle. It will only change when Americans demand that the government treat the least of us as both the law and our values require—and firmly maintain that demand no matter how we feel about the party in power.

 
All hail the bogeymen and their giant jars of salve...

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 23, 2019 - 8:34am

Why a Government Lawyer Argued Against Giving Immigrant Kids Toothbrushes

The sheer effrontery of the government’s argument may be explained, but not excused, by its long backstory.
Ken White, Attorney and former federal prosecutor

The United States’s loathsome argument—that it is “safe and sanitary” to confine children without soap, toothbrushes, dry clothes, and on concrete under bright lights—is morally indefensible. It’s also a spectacularly foolish argument to raise in the famously liberal Ninth Circuit, where the United States should have expected exactly the reception that it got. And even though the litigation began under the Obama administration, it was the Trump administration that elected to bring this appeal and ask the court to bless these inhumane conditions as “safe and sanitary.” That’s an extremely aggressive legal argument, and one that suggests that the disturbing conditions being reported at confinement centers are intentional, not a sign of mere neglect.

It is right and fit to condemn the Trump administration for its argument and its treatment of children. But it’s wrong to think the problem can be cured with a presidential election. Trump will depart; the problem will not depart with him. This administration is merely the latest one to subject immigrant children to abusive conditions. It’s been 35 years since Jenny Flores was strip searched in an adult facility. Before Sarah Fabian defended concrete floors and bright lights for President Trump, she defended putting kids in solitary confinement for President Obama.

The fault lies not with any one administration or politician, but with the culture: the ICE and CBP culture that encourages the abuse, the culture of the legal apologists who defend it, and our culture—a largely indifferent America that hasn’t done a damn thing about it. This stain on America’s soul will not wash out with an election cycle. It will only change when Americans demand that the government treat the least of us as both the law and our values require—and firmly maintain that demand no matter how we feel about the party in power.

hayduke2

hayduke2 Avatar

Location: Southampton, NY
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 1:48pm

History repeating itself, I just read the stories of the HORRIBLE deaths 24,000 children whose conditions were ignored by the English Government during the Second Boer War, 1900 

Trump Administration Lawyer Argues Detained Migrant Children Don't Need Soap in Echo of British Concentration Camps

Emily Hobhouse - Wikipedia

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 11:46am

I’m a Journalist but I Didn’t Fully Realize the Terrible Power of U.S. Border Officials Until They Violated My Rights and Privacy
At one point, Pomeroy was standing over my laptop on the desk. I couldn’t see the screen, and he had such a puzzled expression on his face that I stood up to see what he was looking at. “Get back,” he said, clapping a hand on his sidearm. “I don’t know if you’re going for my gun.” At another point, Pomeroy had taken my laptop to the desk in the waiting area, and I thought I heard him call for me to come over, so I did. “Stand back from my gun,” he said, when he saw me approaching; it turns out he had been talking to someone else. Three times during the course of the secondary screening, Pomeroy pronounced words to the effect that he was subjectively forming a reasonable belief that I might grab his service weapon.

It was an implicit death threat and a rhetorical move on part of the police that will be familiar to people of color: I’ve got a gun on you, ergo, you’re a threat to me. Speaking of which, I’m certain this whole experience would have been worse had I been black or brown instead of white. And that is to say nothing of migrants and refugees, whose treatment at the hands of CBP on the U.S.-Mexico border is another matter altogether. But it does go to show that you can’t contain a culture of aggression to one part of an armed agency.

(...)

It was around 4 p.m. when Moncivias finally finished up and informed me, anticlimactically, that I was free to go. I couldn’t wait to get outside because the detention area was freezing. No wonder Spanish-speaking migrants call CBP detention la hielera — the icebox. I took my phone and laptop and silently packed up my luggage, which still lay disemboweled on the desk, underwear and all. Pomeroy was gone by this time. As I was walking out, I said to Moncivias and Villarreal, “It’s funny, of all the countries I’ve been to, the border guards have never treated me worse than here, in the one country I’m a citizen of, in the town where I was born.”

“Welcome back to the USA,” Moncivias said.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 22, 2019 - 2:29am



 BlueHeronDruid wrote:
Excerpts from the attached report by the US Inspector General’s Office (May 30, 2019) as it relates to detention conditions at the El Paso Station:

1. “According to PDT Border Patrol processing faculty staff, the faculties maximum capacity is 125 detainees. However, on May 7 and 8, 2019 Border Patrol’s Custody logs indicated there were approximately 750-900 detainees on the site.

2. “Specifically we observed:
-a cell with a maximum capacity of 12 had 72 detainees. (Figure 1)
- a cell with a maximum capacity of 8 held 41 detainees (Figure 2); and
- a cell with a maximum of 35 detainees held 155 detainees (Figure 3).”


3. “ Border patrol agents told us some of the detainees had been held in standing room only conditions for days or weeks. According to Border Patrol custody logs, there were 756 detainees on site when we visited PDT on May 7, 2019. Of those, 502 detainees (66 percent) had been held at PDT for longer than 72 hours with 33 detainees (4 percent) held there for more than two weeks).

4. “ During our visits, we observed a triage of hundreds of detainees outside in the PDT parking lot. There were 75 treated for lice, hundreds of family units waiting in the tent area to be processed (footnote omitted) and hundreds of detainees in line to surrender their valuables, such as money and phones to DHS staff.” . . .” We also observed staff discarding all other detainee property such as backpacks, suitcases and handbags in the nearby dumpster (see Figure 5).

5. “We are concerned that overcrowding and prolonged detention represent an immediate risk to the health and safety of not only the detainees, but the DHS agents and officers.”

6. “With limited access to showers and clean clothing, detainees were wearing soiled clothing for days and weeks.”

7. “We also observed detainees standing on toilets in the cells to make room and gain breathing space, thus limiting access to toilets.”

Do not look away.


And remember that some of these people are applying for asylum. You know, trying to get in legally.


 

Well it is nice that more and more people are realizing the crisis we have at the border.  Both conservative and liberals at least are on the same page now with that.  Now maybe FINALLY we can put pressure on Congress to do something about it.  There are pipelines of people coming from all over the world.  Something must be done regardless of whether the motivation is to secure the border or to put an end to the humanitarian crisis or both.
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Jun 21, 2019 - 7:41pm

Excerpts from the attached report by the US Inspector General’s Office (May 30, 2019) as it relates to detention conditions at the El Paso Station:

1. “According to PDT Border Patrol processing faculty staff, the faculties maximum capacity is 125 detainees. However, on May 7 and 8, 2019 Border Patrol’s Custody logs indicated there were approximately 750-900 detainees on the site.

2. “Specifically we observed:
-a cell with a maximum capacity of 12 had 72 detainees. (Figure 1)
- a cell with a maximum capacity of 8 held 41 detainees (Figure 2); and
- a cell with a maximum of 35 detainees held 155 detainees (Figure 3).”

3. “ Border patrol agents told us some of the detainees had been held in standing room only conditions for days or weeks. According to Border Patrol custody logs, there were 756 detainees on site when we visited PDT on May 7, 2019. Of those, 502 detainees (66 percent) had been held at PDT for longer than 72 hours with 33 detainees (4 percent) held there for more than two weeks).

4. “ During our visits, we observed a triage of hundreds of detainees outside in the PDT parking lot. There were 75 treated for lice, hundreds of family units waiting in the tent area to be processed (footnote omitted) and hundreds of detainees in line to surrender their valuables, such as money and phones to DHS staff.” . . .” We also observed staff discarding all other detainee property such as backpacks, suitcases and handbags in the nearby dumpster (see Figure 5).

5. “We are concerned that overcrowding and prolonged detention represent an immediate risk to the health and safety of not only the detainees, but the DHS agents and officers.”

6. “With limited access to showers and clean clothing, detainees were wearing soiled clothing for days and weeks.”

7. “We also observed detainees standing on toilets in the cells to make room and gain breathing space, thus limiting access to toilets.”

Do not look away.


And remember that some of these people are applying for asylum. You know, trying to get in legally.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jun 19, 2019 - 7:02pm

An Expert on Concentration Camps Says That's Exactly What the U.S. Is Running at the Border
It isn’t just accurate. It’s necessary.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 12, 2019 - 6:51am

California to become the first state to extend health benefits to some who live in USA illegally

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/california-become-first-state-extend-132010832.html

 

 


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 8:30pm

islander wrote:
The problem always gets down to who sets the standard, and why are they setting that particular standard. Then there is the follow up of who gets to judge if it has been met. 
Saudi until recently didn't let women drive, so no Saudi women could get in?  What college issued the degree, who accredited them.  Also why college degree for immigrants?  Are we welcoming to people fleeing oppressive violence, but only if they study up?  Vocational people can live with oppression?

Not saying we shouldn't have any standards, but we need to consider what they are and more importantly WHY we are applying them.  To my eyes and ears, it often seems to be lip service to an ideal, but in reality it is used actively to leave out the 'others' who we are uncomfortable with.  Lately this seems even more so, or at least the voices shouting 'stay out' to the uncomfortable others are getting louder.

Personally, I'm reacting the other direction just to distance myself from that crowd. If I ever find myself on the same side of the street as the people I actively dislike, it's time for some serious introspection and likely a change of my position.

The current leadership  is not the real problem, it just makes the real problem obvious. Previous presidents could have done the same—and that's the real problem.

Our legislative branch is too spineless to deal with the problem and trusted to the executive branch to do the right thing—or as right a thing as politics allowed. And that worked, after a fashion, for a long time. Until the executive branch was run by someone determined to do the opposite of the right thing.

It's right and proper to call MAGAmemnon on his betrayal of principles, but Congress needs to shoulder its share of the blame for leaving the tools right there for him to just pick up and use.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 9:16am



 black321 wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  
 
The problem always gets down to who sets the standard, and why are they setting that particular standard. Then there is the follow up of who gets to judge if it has been met. 
Saudi until recently didn't let women drive, so no Saudi women could get in?  What college issued the degree, who accredited them.  Also why college degree for immigrants?  Are we welcoming to people fleeing oppressive violence, but only if they study up?  Vocational people can live with oppression?

Not saying we shouldn't have any standards, but we need to consider what they are and more importantly WHY we are applying them.  To my eyes and ears, it often seems to be lip service to an ideal, but in reality it is used actively to leave out the 'others' who we are uncomfortable with.  Lately this seems even more so, or at least the voices shouting 'stay out' to the uncomfortable others are getting louder.

Personally, I'm reacting the other direction just to distance myself from that crowd. If I ever find myself on the same side of the street as the people I actively dislike, it's time for some serious introspection and likely a change of my position.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 8:39am

black321 wrote:
I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  

A lot of people want it
is not an argument based on the merits, it's an argument for mob rule.

It selects by class, gender, ethnicity, and political privilege, as in most of the world not everybody can go to college. It lets despotic governments decide, in part, our immigration policy. And how do you verify that a diploma is real, assuming the person applying managed to hold on to a diploma while fleeing the barrel bombs that destroyed his college and all its records?

It assigns an arbitrary criterion as a signifier of merit. Get booted out of school the day before graduation and you're nobody, unworthy of entry. By this standard Bill Gates and Paul Allen wouldn't be allowed in—both are college dropouts. As are any number of worthy folk in our history—including 10 US presidents.

We have been, historically, a beacon of opportunity to the rest of the world. Living proof that the desire and ambition to better oneself and one's condition is a sufficient starting point in a free society. Our country was built by outcasts, by misfits, by the oppressed. That foundation has been, y'know...pretty successful.

Along comes a demagogue who knows better. Now the criterion is to be who is the most useful to a particular stratum of our employers.?

And to my original point...there is no discussion at all about the pathetically small quotas we allow in, nothing about the plight of refugees, no recognition that bad leadership wastes human potential—just another example of it.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 7, 2019 - 7:07am



 Lazy8 wrote:
Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

I generally agree  that we shouldn't have a merit based system and my family certainly would not be here if we did.  And i believe we should stand by the words of the Statue of Liberty. But...playing devils advocate, would a merit system really be what you imply?  What if it were something simple, such as: college degree and a drivers license?  Not exactly asking the gov to weed out the redheads, the introverts or, we want folks from this part of the world, and not that one?  Putting aside the morals of such a system....there are many in this country that want something like that, and so shouldn't the debate be based on that?  
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 6, 2019 - 7:52pm

It's Alan Kurdi's birthday.

He'd be 7 years old if he hadn't drowned off the coast of Turkey in 2015, along with his mother, Rehena, and his brother, Galib. The family was trying to get to Greece. They were Kurds, fleeing Syria and unwelcome in Turkey.

What this means to you depends on your reaction to this picture. I won't show it here, no need to shock anybody. But I'm curious what the reaction would be from all the keyboard warriors.

Good riddance
Better him than me
Should have gone through proper channels
Not my problem


What's yours?

Do you mean it?

Could you look his father in the eye and tell it to him?
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2019 - 7:40am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
 

Most of our ancestors were, literally, outcasts. So the answer to your questions is clearly no.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 22, 2019 - 6:56am

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

Even NPR was describing the latest turn of the wheel as a "positive" proposal. This appalls me; it's a vast social engineering scheme where the executive branch of the government gets to decide what kinds of people we need to add to the country. Not based on character or potential or empathy or creativity or ambition or any of a million other characteristics that can't be measured, but by...training.

We aren't talking about expanding the pathetically tiny quotas we have now. These are being accepted as the natural order of the universe, the baseline from which we restrict further.

I could question the legitimacy of adding a further hoop to the  process. I could question the competence of the executive branch of the US government to decide what trades we will need from here out—people live a long time, circumstances and technology and economies evolve and demand for labor changes over time. I could question the understanding of history that makes someone think that leaving desperate people adrift —that we, in the luxury liner, don't have a human obligation to rescue the shipwrecked—is an acceptable, even laudable policy objective. I could do all that. I doubt it would even make a dent.

So let me do this instead: yo, MAGAnauts! Do you think you make a net positive contribution to our society? You do, right? Your unique contribution is valuable on many levels...right?

Right?

Would this policy let you in?

Would it let your mother in?

Let that sink in. All the way in.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:29am



 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Those are both good articles, thanks.

==============

Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.
 
I'm sure this image has been here at some point, but:

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:24am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Those are both good articles, thanks.

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Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.

 
i was thinking the same thing on that latter point. 
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: May 21, 2019 - 9:18am

Those are both good articles, thanks.

==============

Unrelated, I'm sure it's just me but the decades of complaining that immigrants are going to take our jobs... now they're talking about only letting people in based on "merit," i.e.: only if they actually prove themselves able to take our jobs.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 20, 2019 - 9:09pm

Our behavior in the days before WW2 was shameful.

It's shameful now.

The Heartbreaking, Lifesaving Practice of Welcoming 'Unaccompanied' Child Migrants

A history lesson for Americans


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 20, 2019 - 11:19am

It's the shape of the skull...
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