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Trump - VV - Oct 23, 2019 - 10:07am
 
What are you reading now? - Proclivities - Oct 23, 2019 - 9:47am
 
Shortcut and automation support for iOS app in beta - gtufano - Oct 23, 2019 - 9:25am
 
Baseball, anyone? - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2019 - 9:12am
 
Best Song Comments. - dischuckin - Oct 23, 2019 - 8:25am
 
Oops! - Proclivities - Oct 23, 2019 - 8:19am
 
PANTS ON FIRE! - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2019 - 6:22am
 
Radio Paradise Comments - Coaxial - Oct 23, 2019 - 6:15am
 
Today in History - Red_Dragon - Oct 23, 2019 - 6:09am
 
Radio Paradise NFL Pick'em Group - olivertwist - Oct 23, 2019 - 3:26am
 
Country Up The Bumpkin - sirdroseph - Oct 23, 2019 - 2:24am
 
Strips, cartoons, illustrations - R_P - Oct 22, 2019 - 10:14pm
 
What The Hell Buddy? - oldviolin - Oct 22, 2019 - 6:55pm
 
Dialing 1-800-Manbird - oldviolin - Oct 22, 2019 - 6:31pm
 
OUR CATS!! - westslope - Oct 22, 2019 - 6:22pm
 
Climate Change - R_P - Oct 22, 2019 - 6:08pm
 
Positive Thoughts and Prayer Requests - triskele - Oct 22, 2019 - 4:45pm
 
Things You Thought Today - triskele - Oct 22, 2019 - 4:44pm
 
Canada - haresfur - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:46pm
 
electric duets and Rock Wiz - haresfur - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:38pm
 
punk? hip-hop? metal? noise? garage? - rhahl - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:32pm
 
What are you listening to now? - Ohmsen - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:27pm
 
Speaking of Logos... - Ohmsen - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:24pm
 
Economix - miamizsun - Oct 22, 2019 - 3:03pm
 
Dying for Halloween Music to start! - Ohmsen - Oct 22, 2019 - 2:51pm
 
Beta Player on Android TV. - puntloos - Oct 22, 2019 - 2:12pm
 
Questions. - SeriousLee - Oct 22, 2019 - 1:04pm
 
Lyrics That Remind You of Someone - SeriousLee - Oct 22, 2019 - 12:56pm
 
Interesting or Weird Cover Versions - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Oct 22, 2019 - 12:37pm
 
Health Care - R_P - Oct 22, 2019 - 12:01pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - oldviolin - Oct 22, 2019 - 9:58am
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - oldviolin - Oct 22, 2019 - 9:45am
 
Cryptic Posts - Leave Them Guessing - oldviolin - Oct 22, 2019 - 8:57am
 
Bad News / Good News - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 22, 2019 - 8:44am
 
Live Music - sirdroseph - Oct 22, 2019 - 6:46am
 
Suggestion: Americana Mix - sirdroseph - Oct 22, 2019 - 2:54am
 
Venezuela - R_P - Oct 22, 2019 - 1:19am
 
Bob Dylan - oldviolin - Oct 21, 2019 - 10:19pm
 
Lyrics that strike a chord today... - oldviolin - Oct 21, 2019 - 10:00pm
 
YouTube: Music-Videos - oldviolin - Oct 21, 2019 - 9:52pm
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - KurtfromLaQuinta - Oct 21, 2019 - 7:58pm
 
Trump Lies - R_P - Oct 21, 2019 - 4:12pm
 
Celebrity Face Recognition - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2019 - 4:01pm
 
Syria - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2019 - 2:36pm
 
If Wishes Were Horses - katzendogs - Oct 21, 2019 - 1:06pm
 
Acoustic Guitar - R_P - Oct 21, 2019 - 12:55pm
 
Regarding dogs - miamizsun - Oct 21, 2019 - 10:58am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - lightfoot - Oct 21, 2019 - 10:17am
 
Nice set Bill.... - dischuckin - Oct 21, 2019 - 10:14am
 
Puzzle it - oldviolin - Oct 21, 2019 - 9:51am
 
Mixtape Culture Club - Lazy8 - Oct 21, 2019 - 9:35am
 
GHOST of HALLOWEEN, Past, Present, & Future - Proclivities - Oct 21, 2019 - 9:01am
 
RP Android app causing SystemUI to crash loop - BillG - Oct 21, 2019 - 8:53am
 
Derplahoma Questions and Points of Interest - ScottFromWyoming - Oct 21, 2019 - 8:30am
 
Democratic Party - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2019 - 7:47am
 
kurtster's quiet vinyl - Ohmsen - Oct 21, 2019 - 7:32am
 
Music Videos - Proclivities - Oct 21, 2019 - 7:30am
 
The Global War on Terror - kurtster - Oct 20, 2019 - 6:45pm
 
Name My Band - oldviolin - Oct 20, 2019 - 11:23am
 
The Dragons' Roost - triskele - Oct 20, 2019 - 6:43am
 
If you are allowed to pack ten things to take to the Afte... - rashad - Oct 19, 2019 - 10:27pm
 
President Elizabeth Warren - haresfur - Oct 19, 2019 - 6:28pm
 
Tech & Science - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 4:05pm
 
Evolution! - R_P - Oct 19, 2019 - 3:40pm
 
Fake News*  ?  ! - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 2:50pm
 
Gotta Get Your Drink On - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 2:33pm
 
Classical Music - R_P - Oct 19, 2019 - 2:19pm
 
Counting with Pictures - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 10:51am
 
Anti-War - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 10:43am
 
• • • What Makes You Happy? • • •  - Ohmsen - Oct 19, 2019 - 10:29am
 
Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously - R_P - Oct 19, 2019 - 12:03am
 
New Music - R_P - Oct 18, 2019 - 11:45am
 
Room 3a - Proclivities - Oct 18, 2019 - 11:19am
 
260,000 Posts in one thread? - SeriousLee - Oct 18, 2019 - 9:08am
 
Freedom of speech? - miamizsun - Oct 18, 2019 - 4:14am
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Those Lovable Policemen Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
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R_P

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Posted: Oct 1, 2019 - 10:52am

 R_P wrote:
Dallas police seek manslaughter warrant against officer who killed neighbor
Dallas police said the officer called for help and told responding officers that "she entered the victim's apartment believing that it was her own."

 
Amber Guyger found guilty of murder at trial in fatal shooting of neighbor Botham Jean
R_P

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Posted: Aug 8, 2019 - 12:17pm

Death by Police is Now the 6th Leading Cause of Death Among Young Men

R_P

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Posted: Jul 13, 2019 - 11:50am

Border Patrol Chief Carla Provost Was a Member of Secret Facebook Group
When news broke that thousands of current and former Border Patrol agents were members of a secret Facebook group filled with racist, vulgar, and sexist content, Carla Provost, chief of the agency, was quick to respond. “These posts are completely inappropriate and contrary to the honor and integrity I see — and expect — from our agents day in and day out,” Provost said in a statement. “Any employees found to have violated our standards of conduct will be held accountable.” (...)

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Posted: Jul 12, 2019 - 10:56am

A Florida cop planted meth on random drivers, police say. One lost custody of his daughter.
Wester, who was fired last September, was arrested Wednesday and charged with 52 counts of racketeering, false imprisonment, official misconduct, fabricating evidence and possession of controlled substances, among other charges. He’s accused of indiscriminately targeting innocent drivers and hauling them off to jail after planting meth or marijuana in their vehicles while feigning a “search."

R_P

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Posted: Jul 8, 2019 - 9:28am

Veterans Affairs Police Have a Shocking Record of Brutality
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 7, 2019 - 7:25am

 R_P wrote:
Inside the Secret Border Patrol Facebook Group Where Agents Joke About Migrant Deaths and Post Sexist Memes
The Border Patrol Facebook group is the most recent example of some law enforcement personnel behaving badly in public and private digital spaces. An investigation by Reveal uncovered hundreds of active-duty and retired law enforcement officers who moved in extremist Facebook circles, including white supremacist and anti-government groups. A team of researchers calling themselves the Plain View Project recently released a hefty database of offensive Facebook posts made by current and ex-law enforcement officers.
 

a secret facebook group? 

Red_Dragon

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Posted: Jul 7, 2019 - 7:15am

I'm guessing that the customer who expressed fear was other than lily-white....
R_P

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Posted: Jul 5, 2019 - 2:54pm

Border Patrol Agents Tried to Delete Racist and Obscene Facebook Posts. We Archived Them.
R_P

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Posted: Jul 3, 2019 - 10:28am

Inside the Secret Border Patrol Facebook Group Where Agents Joke About Migrant Deaths and Post Sexist Memes
The Border Patrol Facebook group is the most recent example of some law enforcement personnel behaving badly in public and private digital spaces. An investigation by Reveal uncovered hundreds of active-duty and retired law enforcement officers who moved in extremist Facebook circles, including white supremacist and anti-government groups. A team of researchers calling themselves the Plain View Project recently released a hefty database of offensive Facebook posts made by current and ex-law enforcement officers.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 16, 2019 - 1:02pm

After a 4-year-old took a doll from a store, video shows Phoenix police pulling a gun on her parents
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:46am

 islander wrote:
Here's a nickle. That's well said.
 
thank you.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:31am



 kurtster wrote:

Here in Ohio, most police chiefs are appointed by mayors and approved by city councils.  Our county sheriffs are elected.  So the chiefs are tied to politics, at least here in Ohio which is where the case we are talking about occurred.  While the woman's arrest was a case of mistaken identity, the protocols that are in place that dictated the aftermath are mostly a result of zero tolerance, imo.

The weekend is no excuse for any lapses, especially when the welfare of a new born and their mother is involved.  Resolving this situation should become a highest priority, that is unless the police assume that the woman is who they think she is and she deserves all the maltreatment she gets.  It is this attitude that is really at the heart of the matter.  The system believes that everyone is guilty until they prove their innocence.  Go into court for even a petty offense and when you go to the clerk's window to pay your fine, more often than not, you get treated like a dirt bag.  The only place you get presumed innocent is in the court room itself, and then it is only because they have to.

I see nothing that shows any sloppy work on the part of police.  They were just doing their job given the information at hand.  The woman is definitely entitled to redress and compensation.  Her children were seized from her, she lost her job and most importantly she now has an arrest for heroin trafficking that will follow her for the rest of her life.  While the charges were dropped, one's arrest record is almost always never changed.  Her next encounter with any law enforcement will immediately show this arrest detail and her treatment will immediately change in a bad way.

The System, is a faceless entity that is monolithic, uncaring and unresponsive to outside influences.  It only recognizes names and numbers.  Humans are its commodity and nothing more.  The only thing it reacts to is money and power.  You cannot punish the system.  All you can do is charge the system with a debt that it must pay.  Who pays that debt does not matter to the system.  It will continue along its merry way and let the legal experts decide who pays what to whom.  The members of the system are just as stuck in it as are their charges (us) and have little control over it.  The system rarely (read never) learns from its mistakes.  The only learning that goes on is at the gatekeeper level.  Those who capture and admit us to the entry point which takes me back to zero tolerance.  If you have never been formally admitted into the system, it is hard to understand what it really is.  Once in, you no longer have any control over your life until it releases you, completely.  As in all fines, sentences and restrictions have been satisfied and lifted.  

So in the case of this woman, I would deem her an award of $1 million dollars, after legal fees.  She may find herself unemployable after this arrest through no fault of her own based simply on her arrest record.  This amount should be sufficient to set her up for the rest of her life.  What she ends up doing with the money is of no one's concern.  They take her as she is and can not judge her and her abilities or lack of.  No one is going to be fired over this other than the woman herself.  More than likely insurance companies will pay the money, so the government will not suffer any losses nor learn any lessons.  We will see more of these situations as time progresses, not less as the long arm of the law gets longer and longer.

The only things that governments understand is money and even that is debatable.  Let's keep this simple.

My 2¢


 
Here's a nickle. That's well said.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:17am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.

 
Here in Ohio, most police chiefs are appointed by mayors and approved by city councils.  Our county sheriffs are elected.  So the chiefs are tied to politics, at least here in Ohio which is where the case we are talking about occurred.  While the woman's arrest was a case of mistaken identity, the protocols that are in place that dictated the aftermath are mostly a result of zero tolerance, imo.

The weekend is no excuse for any lapses, especially when the welfare of a new born and their mother is involved.  Resolving this situation should become a highest priority, that is unless the police assume that the woman is who they think she is and she deserves all the maltreatment she gets.  It is this attitude that is really at the heart of the matter.  The system believes that everyone is guilty until they prove their innocence.  Go into court for even a petty offense and when you go to the clerk's window to pay your fine, more often than not, you get treated like a dirt bag.  The only place you get presumed innocent is in the court room itself, and then it is only because they have to.

I see nothing that shows any sloppy work on the part of police.  They were just doing their job given the information at hand.  The woman is definitely entitled to redress and compensation.  Her children were seized from her, she lost her job and most importantly she now has an arrest for heroin trafficking that will follow her for the rest of her life.  While the charges were dropped, one's arrest record is almost always never changed.  Her next encounter with any law enforcement will immediately show this arrest detail and her treatment will immediately change in a bad way.

The System, is a faceless entity that is monolithic, uncaring and unresponsive to outside influences.  It only recognizes names and numbers.  Humans are its commodity and nothing more.  The only thing it reacts to is money and power.  You cannot punish the system.  All you can do is charge the system with a debt that it must pay.  Who pays that debt does not matter to the system.  It will continue along its merry way and let the legal experts decide who pays what to whom.  The members of the system are just as stuck in it as are their charges (us) and have little control over it.  The system rarely (read never) learns from its mistakes.  The only learning that goes on is at the gatekeeper level.  Those who capture and admit us to the entry point which takes me back to zero tolerance.  If you have never been formally admitted into the system, it is hard to understand what it really is.  Once in, you no longer have any control over your life until it releases you, completely.  As in all fines, sentences and restrictions have been satisfied and lifted.  

So in the case of this woman, I would deem her an award of $1 million dollars, after legal fees.  She may find herself unemployable after this arrest through no fault of her own based simply on her arrest record.  This amount should be sufficient to set her up for the rest of her life.  What she ends up doing with the money is of no one's concern.  They take her as she is and can not judge her and her abilities or lack of.  No one is going to be fired over this other than the woman herself.  More than likely insurance companies will pay the money, so the government will not suffer any losses nor learn any lessons.  We will see more of these situations as time progresses, not less as the long arm of the law gets longer and longer.

The only things that governments understand is money and even that is debatable.  Let's keep this simple.

My 2¢


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 10:39am



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
 

I don't know how it went down. But I've seen plenty of abuses of power that used a bad law because it was convenient.  There are many instances (I've benefited from some of them) where law enforcement looks the other ways for some offenders, but not others.  

I don't have a good solution. But I can spot a trend line in the behaviors and outcomes that we are currently perpetuating.  I'm up for something different, but as usual the change probably needs to start with those holding the power.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 7:55am



 Lazy8 wrote:
It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
 

And this all comes back to lawyers. We beat the tendency for original thought out of our police and a lot of other professions, requiring them to follow protocol for fear of a lawsuit. There used to be a T-shirt popular among Vietnam vets et al, "Kill 'em all/Let God sort 'em out." Now when it comes to crime, especially when kids are involved, it's "Arrest everyone, let the lawyers sort 'em out." There seems to have been a feeling of "I'm not going to be the one to let a criminal go free" so she just had to suffer. They did everything by the book, so in their minds, there was nothing to apologize for.
 
============

Unrelated but not really: I wish I had documented all of the policies the Ski Patrol had to implement because "insurance requires it." Put fences up to keep people out of closed off areas. Take same fences down because they establish that we take responsibility for the area beyond the fence. Tell people not to go past the non-fence area. Don't tell people not to go there. Mark off hazardous areas. Don't mark off hazardous areas. In the end, the insurance inspector is totally happy with however we run our hill. I've gone on inspections with them and they're fine with it either way. It's the new bosses who come in, don't like the way something looks, so they change it. But it's not good enough to say "I don't like that fence there," they think they have to make up a story about the insurance company.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 7:31am

islander wrote:
None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 6:15am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
 

None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 9:53am



 oldviolin wrote:


 Red_Dragon wrote:

Lawyers gotta eat, same as snakes.
 

I think the quote is "buzzards gotta eat, same as worms..."

but who's counting?
 
"Get ready little lady, Hell is comin' to breakfast."

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 9:23am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
 
I just meant in the general "I can see that" sense of merit. Schadenfreudalism at work or something. 

re your last question: That's a given. Absolutely CAN see it happening.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 8:51am

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
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