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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:46am

 islander wrote:
Here's a nickle. That's well said.
 
thank you.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:31am



 kurtster wrote:

Here in Ohio, most police chiefs are appointed by mayors and approved by city councils.  Our county sheriffs are elected.  So the chiefs are tied to politics, at least here in Ohio which is where the case we are talking about occurred.  While the woman's arrest was a case of mistaken identity, the protocols that are in place that dictated the aftermath are mostly a result of zero tolerance, imo.

The weekend is no excuse for any lapses, especially when the welfare of a new born and their mother is involved.  Resolving this situation should become a highest priority, that is unless the police assume that the woman is who they think she is and she deserves all the maltreatment she gets.  It is this attitude that is really at the heart of the matter.  The system believes that everyone is guilty until they prove their innocence.  Go into court for even a petty offense and when you go to the clerk's window to pay your fine, more often than not, you get treated like a dirt bag.  The only place you get presumed innocent is in the court room itself, and then it is only because they have to.

I see nothing that shows any sloppy work on the part of police.  They were just doing their job given the information at hand.  The woman is definitely entitled to redress and compensation.  Her children were seized from her, she lost her job and most importantly she now has an arrest for heroin trafficking that will follow her for the rest of her life.  While the charges were dropped, one's arrest record is almost always never changed.  Her next encounter with any law enforcement will immediately show this arrest detail and her treatment will immediately change in a bad way.

The System, is a faceless entity that is monolithic, uncaring and unresponsive to outside influences.  It only recognizes names and numbers.  Humans are its commodity and nothing more.  The only thing it reacts to is money and power.  You cannot punish the system.  All you can do is charge the system with a debt that it must pay.  Who pays that debt does not matter to the system.  It will continue along its merry way and let the legal experts decide who pays what to whom.  The members of the system are just as stuck in it as are their charges (us) and have little control over it.  The system rarely (read never) learns from its mistakes.  The only learning that goes on is at the gatekeeper level.  Those who capture and admit us to the entry point which takes me back to zero tolerance.  If you have never been formally admitted into the system, it is hard to understand what it really is.  Once in, you no longer have any control over your life until it releases you, completely.  As in all fines, sentences and restrictions have been satisfied and lifted.  

So in the case of this woman, I would deem her an award of $1 million dollars, after legal fees.  She may find herself unemployable after this arrest through no fault of her own based simply on her arrest record.  This amount should be sufficient to set her up for the rest of her life.  What she ends up doing with the money is of no one's concern.  They take her as she is and can not judge her and her abilities or lack of.  No one is going to be fired over this other than the woman herself.  More than likely insurance companies will pay the money, so the government will not suffer any losses nor learn any lessons.  We will see more of these situations as time progresses, not less as the long arm of the law gets longer and longer.

The only things that governments understand is money and even that is debatable.  Let's keep this simple.

My 2¢


 
Here's a nickle. That's well said.


kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 11:17am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.

 
Here in Ohio, most police chiefs are appointed by mayors and approved by city councils.  Our county sheriffs are elected.  So the chiefs are tied to politics, at least here in Ohio which is where the case we are talking about occurred.  While the woman's arrest was a case of mistaken identity, the protocols that are in place that dictated the aftermath are mostly a result of zero tolerance, imo.

The weekend is no excuse for any lapses, especially when the welfare of a new born and their mother is involved.  Resolving this situation should become a highest priority, that is unless the police assume that the woman is who they think she is and she deserves all the maltreatment she gets.  It is this attitude that is really at the heart of the matter.  The system believes that everyone is guilty until they prove their innocence.  Go into court for even a petty offense and when you go to the clerk's window to pay your fine, more often than not, you get treated like a dirt bag.  The only place you get presumed innocent is in the court room itself, and then it is only because they have to.

I see nothing that shows any sloppy work on the part of police.  They were just doing their job given the information at hand.  The woman is definitely entitled to redress and compensation.  Her children were seized from her, she lost her job and most importantly she now has an arrest for heroin trafficking that will follow her for the rest of her life.  While the charges were dropped, one's arrest record is almost always never changed.  Her next encounter with any law enforcement will immediately show this arrest detail and her treatment will immediately change in a bad way.

The System, is a faceless entity that is monolithic, uncaring and unresponsive to outside influences.  It only recognizes names and numbers.  Humans are its commodity and nothing more.  The only thing it reacts to is money and power.  You cannot punish the system.  All you can do is charge the system with a debt that it must pay.  Who pays that debt does not matter to the system.  It will continue along its merry way and let the legal experts decide who pays what to whom.  The members of the system are just as stuck in it as are their charges (us) and have little control over it.  The system rarely (read never) learns from its mistakes.  The only learning that goes on is at the gatekeeper level.  Those who capture and admit us to the entry point which takes me back to zero tolerance.  If you have never been formally admitted into the system, it is hard to understand what it really is.  Once in, you no longer have any control over your life until it releases you, completely.  As in all fines, sentences and restrictions have been satisfied and lifted.  

So in the case of this woman, I would deem her an award of $1 million dollars, after legal fees.  She may find herself unemployable after this arrest through no fault of her own based simply on her arrest record.  This amount should be sufficient to set her up for the rest of her life.  What she ends up doing with the money is of no one's concern.  They take her as she is and can not judge her and her abilities or lack of.  No one is going to be fired over this other than the woman herself.  More than likely insurance companies will pay the money, so the government will not suffer any losses nor learn any lessons.  We will see more of these situations as time progresses, not less as the long arm of the law gets longer and longer.

The only things that governments understand is money and even that is debatable.  Let's keep this simple.

My 2¢


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 10:39am



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
 

I don't know how it went down. But I've seen plenty of abuses of power that used a bad law because it was convenient.  There are many instances (I've benefited from some of them) where law enforcement looks the other ways for some offenders, but not others.  

I don't have a good solution. But I can spot a trend line in the behaviors and outcomes that we are currently perpetuating.  I'm up for something different, but as usual the change probably needs to start with those holding the power.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 7:55am



 Lazy8 wrote:
It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
 

And this all comes back to lawyers. We beat the tendency for original thought out of our police and a lot of other professions, requiring them to follow protocol for fear of a lawsuit. There used to be a T-shirt popular among Vietnam vets et al, "Kill 'em all/Let God sort 'em out." Now when it comes to crime, especially when kids are involved, it's "Arrest everyone, let the lawyers sort 'em out." There seems to have been a feeling of "I'm not going to be the one to let a criminal go free" so she just had to suffer. They did everything by the book, so in their minds, there was nothing to apologize for.
 
============

Unrelated but not really: I wish I had documented all of the policies the Ski Patrol had to implement because "insurance requires it." Put fences up to keep people out of closed off areas. Take same fences down because they establish that we take responsibility for the area beyond the fence. Tell people not to go past the non-fence area. Don't tell people not to go there. Mark off hazardous areas. Don't mark off hazardous areas. In the end, the insurance inspector is totally happy with however we run our hill. I've gone on inspections with them and they're fine with it either way. It's the new bosses who come in, don't like the way something looks, so they change it. But it's not good enough to say "I don't like that fence there," they think they have to make up a story about the insurance company.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 7:31am

islander wrote:
None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 

Not sure what you're proposing as this ideal fix. Police departments don't generally answer to civil government; police chiefs are (everywhere I've ever lived anyway) separately elected and can't be fired. They are unaccountable by design.

That is also a political remedy. It works if the majority gets outraged, but this kind of abuse happens to minorities. In this case, a minority of one.

What we need is a remedy that can punish law enforcement—an over-arching authority that can prosecute the people who normally make prosecution decisions. Seems like maybe a role for state government.

This has nothing to do with division. In fact one-party states (like California or Wyoming) are probably more vulnerable to abuse of power than places with contested politics.

It also isn't clear that this case is abuse of power, other than the law she was arrested under itself, which isn't the cops' fault. This is more a garden-variety blunder, a case of mistaken identity. Sloppy work is not abuse of power, that implies intent and I don't see that here. But carelessness with power also needs to be held to account and law enforcement doesn't have a very good track record there either.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 25, 2019 - 6:15am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
 

None of Y'all?  I think we have a reasonably well demonstrated  (and warranted)  fear of abuse of power. The civil court just happens to be about the  only recourse that is ever effective. Sure you could lobby your city council and see about getting some real accountability, but most within the departments won't speak our, and then there is the fear of continued harassment.   As long as our politics is so completely divided, our governance will continue to fail to serve us all. 
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 9:53am



 oldviolin wrote:


 Red_Dragon wrote:

Lawyers gotta eat, same as snakes.
 

I think the quote is "buzzards gotta eat, same as worms..."

but who's counting?
 
"Get ready little lady, Hell is comin' to breakfast."

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 9:23am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
 
I just meant in the general "I can see that" sense of merit. Schadenfreudalism at work or something. 

re your last question: That's a given. Absolutely CAN see it happening.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 8:51am

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.

Agree that punitive damages don't help, disagree that they are ever merited. Punishment is not what civil law is for, that's what criminal law is for. Adding punishment to civil law distorts the outcomes as well as the process.

The process itself is punitive, tho not intentionally. Things like discovery get abused to make it abusive, and the cost of the process is by itself a weapon.

I'm also fascinated that what got the comments was the likelihood that she will sue rather than the abuse of power that caused the problem in the first place. None of y'all can see this happening to you?
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 8:50am



 Red_Dragon wrote:

Lawyers gotta eat, same as snakes.
 

I think the quote is "buzzards gotta eat, same as worms..."

but who's counting?
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 7:51am



 Lazy8 wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:
"Foster is meeting with her attorney Monday."

:popcorn:

And it will end up costing everybody a massive wad of money and tie cops up in civil court for months when a simple effort to make amends—a couple of phone calls, a simple apology, maybe a check to compensate for the damage done—could have left the lawyers out of it and gotten her back her life.
 

Correct. But rule one when you've done something that might get you sued is Never Admit Fault (including saying you're sorry).

On a slightly unrelated note, I think we've established that massive punitive damages, while merited in individual cases, don't improve outcomes in the aggregate. I'm sure there are stats that show the frequency of this sort of case is actually declining, but it's harder to understand now that we have internets and can sort things out without actually leaving our desks, most of the time.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 24, 2019 - 6:07am

 Lazy8 wrote:
And it will end up costing everybody a massive wad of money and tie cops up in civil court for months when a simple effort to make amends—a couple of phone calls, a simple apology, maybe a check to compensate for the damage done—could have left the lawyers out of it and gotten her back her life.

 
Lawyers gotta eat, same as snakes.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2019 - 9:46pm

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
"Foster is meeting with her attorney Monday."

:popcorn:

And it will end up costing everybody a massive wad of money and tie cops up in civil court for months when a simple effort to make amends—a couple of phone calls, a simple apology, maybe a check to compensate for the damage done—could have left the lawyers out of it and gotten her back her life.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2019 - 11:00am



 Lazy8 wrote:
 

"Foster is meeting with her attorney Monday."

:popcorn:
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 23, 2019 - 8:57am

Mistaken identity. Oopsies. No apology.

She spent a week in jail. Lost her job and her kids. Then, all charges were dropped


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Apr 6, 2019 - 6:39am

The Epidemic Of White Supremacist Police
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Mar 19, 2019 - 4:56pm

Bulgarian Police Try to Break Up Protests with Pepper Spray, Don’t Account for Wind

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Mar 7, 2019 - 12:57am

FBI file reveals the Bureau’s liaison with one of America’s largest anti-Muslim groups
After public pressure forced the FBI to officially pull out of an event sponsored by a SPLC-designated hate group, the Bureau agreed to a secret liaison with them

(...) ACT For America is known for their connections to senior government officials such as former Central Intelligence Agency Director and current Secretary of State Pompeo. The group is also known for stoking fears of Muslims, pushing Sharia law conspiracy theories, and promoting anti-Muslim legislation. These facts were not only known to the FBI, they were cited in the earliest documents in the recently released file.

One of the FBI’s earliest known dealings with ACT For America was in January of 2015, when the Bureau planned to send an FBI representative to a February event called “Domestic Jihad & ISIS”, hosted by St. Mary’s University’s Center for Terrorism Law in San Antonio. The Bureau’s representative was apparently to present a “keynote address” at the event, which also would have featured former FBI agent John Guandolo. In response to public pressure, the FBI pulled out of the event. A new FOIA request has been filed to learn more.

Guandolo is considered to be a conspiracy theorist with a shaky record at the Bureau as a result of him having a sexual relationship with a key witness in a Congress member’s corruption trial. Guandolo would later appear as a guest speaker at another ACT event. (...)

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Mar 2, 2019 - 11:14pm

Sacramento police officers won’t be charged in shooting of Stephon Clark, DA says
One year after Sacramento police shot Stephon Clark to death and sparked a renewed national dialogue over police shootings of young black men, Sacramento County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert declared Saturday that the officers feared for their lives and “acted lawfully under the circumstances.” She declared the shooting justified and said her office was not pressing criminal charges.
Badge of Impunity
And, just days after Clark was killed, two police unions donated a total of $13,000 to the woman investigating the shooting, Sacramento DA Anne Marie Schubert. “It’s not an exception to the rule – it is the rule. Their relationships with each other are incestuous,” said Cat Brooks, executive director of the Oakland-based Justice Teams Network. “Prosecutors are beholden to law enforcement unions. You can’t engender trust when those relationships are so tightly wound.”

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