Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender:
Posted:
May 16, 2013 - 4:04pm
MrsHobieJoe wrote:
hobiejoe wrote:
That was the hook - I think that they go on to suggest that it might actually have been very effective, not just in the physical destruction of the dams and infrastucture downstream, but also in more subtle ways, such as the flooding of mine workings, the diversion of labour (and of course this would have been slave labour) from other projects and the interruption of carefully planned industrial processes - after all, the dams were providing power to the factories that produced the Tiger tanks and the Messerschmitts.
And the Nazi's would also be constantly wondering were else they might be hit.
I think, on balance, from a not very academic viewpoint, that the raids worked. But I'm also a romantic at heart.
damn, I was going to post this. Drew a tear when I heard a piece about it on the radio when I was driving home.
Are we twins?
Ah, no there's the musical taste thing. I'm listening to the Kooks!
Do you remember what the Galicians said when they saw the Battle Of Britain Flight when they arrived during Regatta? They wondered why we celebrated war machines. I said that they, and in particular the Spitfire and Hurricane, were what stood between us and fascism, that they stood between us and our own Guernica.
It still made me think - especially when considering Bomber Command's tactic of area bombing of German cities - that the line between acceptable and unacceptable force, between a just and unjust war has always been very, very fluid and that history always favours the victors.
That was the hook - I think that they go on to suggest that it might actually have been very effective, not just in the physical destruction of the dams and infrastucture downstream, but also in more subtle ways, such as the flooding of mine workings, the diversion of labour (and of course this would have been slave labour) from other projects and the interruption of carefully planned industrial processes - after all, the dams were providing power to the factories that produced the Tiger tanks and the Messerschmitts. Â And the Nazi's would also be constantly wondering were else they might be hit. Â I think, on balance, from a not very academic viewpoint, that the raids worked. But I'm also a romantic at heart. Â
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damn, I was going to post this. Drew a tear when I heard a piece about it on the radio when I was driving home.
Are we twins?
Ah, no there's the musical taste thing. I'm listening to the Kooks!
Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender:
Posted:
May 15, 2013 - 5:28pm
Red_Dragon wrote:
Yes, got sidetracked before I could read the BBC's article on that today. I think they were positing that it wasn't really all that damaging to the Germans.
That was the hook - I think that they go on to suggest that it might actually have been very effective, not just in the physical destruction of the dams and infrastucture downstream, but also in more subtle ways, such as the flooding of mine workings, the diversion of labour (and of course this would have been slave labour) from other projects and the interruption of carefully planned industrial processes - after all, the dams were providing power to the factories that produced the Tiger tanks and the Messerschmitts.
And the Nazi's would also be constantly wondering were else they might be hit.
I think, on balance, from a not very academic viewpoint, that the raids worked. But I'm also a romantic at heart.
Yes, got sidetracked before I could read the BBC's article on that today. I think they were positing that it wasn't really all that damaging to the Germans.
One thing that always amazed me about that was that out of about 100 crew and passengers, I think over 60 survived that disaster. Looking at that footage, I can't imagine how anyone on-board survived, never mind the people on the ground.
Never forget ... 43 years ago today. as a former student, town resident and presently living just 10 miles away, its local history, just as much as a part of us all who lived through those times.
and there was also Jasckson, largely forgotten over the years.
I can't believe it has been that long. I'll never forget that day either, and I don't even live close by.
Never forget ... 43 years ago today. as a former student, town resident and presently living just 10 miles away, its local history, just as much as a part of us all who lived through those times.
and there was also Jasckson, largely forgotten over the years.
"...Seizing on what Jefferson later called "a fugitive occurrence," Monroe and Livingston immediately entered into negotiations and on April 30 (1803) reached an agreement that exceeded their authority - the purchase of the Louisiana territory, including New Orleans, for $15 million. The acquisition of approximately 827,000 square miles would double the size of the United States."
On this day (-1) in 1942 (according to published reports), the U.S. Navy turned to rather unusual sources for military information. Actually, if you are any kind of student of U.S. history, and particularly of military and covert operations, the Navy's source may not have been all that unusual. At this time, World War II had recently begun (for the U.S. anyway) and, while most eyes were on the Pacific, the Navy was already thinking about the invasion of Europe. And, since the only place the Allies were holding their own was North Africa, they figured that invasion would have to be across the Mediterranean. And, that meant Sicily would be the key. Now, if this was 1942, and you were the U.S. Navy and, you went in the chart room, you'd have a problem. Because if you looked in the drawer marked Sicily, you might find its latitude and longitude but little else. There would be few files on the depth of harbors and almost no data on shore defenses. Not a very good data base on which to plan an invasion. So..…to get data on Sicily, you began to think what a less politically correct government might assume in time of war. Having read the tabloids, the Navy assumed a guy named Lucky Luciano might know something about Sicily. And, since he was early in on a 40 to 50 year sentence, he would have time to listen. Mr. Luciano (according to the same published reports, your honor) did not recall much direct detail of Sicily but (according to the same reports) thought he might know a guy or two who did. And boy, did he! Over the next 10 months the Mafia (er... an unknown group of partisans) provided enough data on Sicily's defenses that when the allies invaded (7/10/43), they captured the whole island in 37 days. And they killed 167,000 of the enemy while losing under 24,000 - - remarkable in any invasion at that time. The story, of course is, we are sure, just a coincidence of history. And, the fact that Mr. Luciano's sentence was changed three years later (he was released from jail in 1946 and deported to - where else - Sicily - - despite about 35 years left on his term). The whole thing is, of course, wild conjecture (except for the facts). We also hope to disprove the Mafia/Castro/ Assassination linkage in a future episode. Imagine, the U.S. Government cavorting with gangsters. How very, very unlikely! To mark the day find some guy named “Don” and see if he has any contacts in Afghanistan.
Can you say Wehrner von Braun? We will free anyone if they can help us.
On this day (-1) in 1942 (according to published reports), the U.S. Navy turned to rather unusual sources for military information. Actually, if you are any kind of student of U.S. history, and particularly of military and covert operations, the Navy's source may not have been all that unusual. At this time, World War II had recently begun (for the U.S. anyway) and, while most eyes were on the Pacific, the Navy was already thinking about the invasion of Europe. And, since the only place the Allies were holding their own was North Africa, they figured that invasion would have to be across the Mediterranean. And, that meant Sicily would be the key. Now, if this was 1942, and you were the U.S. Navy and, you went in the chart room, you'd have a problem. Because if you looked in the drawer marked Sicily, you might find its latitude and longitude but little else. There would be few files on the depth of harbors and almost no data on shore defenses. Not a very good data base on which to plan an invasion. So..…to get data on Sicily, you began to think what a less politically correct government might assume in time of war. Having read the tabloids, the Navy assumed a guy named Lucky Luciano might know something about Sicily. And, since he was early in on a 40 to 50 year sentence, he would have time to listen. Mr. Luciano (according to the same published reports, your honor) did not recall much direct detail of Sicily but (according to the same reports) thought he might know a guy or two who did. And boy, did he! Over the next 10 months the Mafia (er... an unknown group of partisans) provided enough data on Sicily's defenses that when the allies invaded (7/10/43), they captured the whole island in 37 days. And they killed 167,000 of the enemy while losing under 24,000 - - remarkable in any invasion at that time. The story, of course is, we are sure, just a coincidence of history. And, the fact that Mr. Luciano's sentence was changed three years later (he was released from jail in 1946 and deported to - where else - Sicily - - despite about 35 years left on his term). The whole thing is, of course, wild conjecture (except for the facts). We also hope to disprove the Mafia/Castro/ Assassination linkage in a future episode. Imagine, the U.S. Government cavorting with gangsters. How very, very unlikely! To mark the day find some guy named “Don” and see if he has any contacts in Afghanistan.
....
