BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
So you're basically unasking the question of "what rights do we have?" This is a very reasonable thing to do.

Like I'd said before, I believe that we start with the idea of "need." People need food as a start. After that, things get less certain.

"Rights" OTOH, are more of a political thing. The right to free speech, assembly, etc. Those are fundamental guarantees of a political system. And that doesn't, btw, include health care. That would be like including "reasonable temperature in buildings" and "fashionable clothes" in the list of so-called rights.

We dilute the concept of rights when everything we want is considered a right. For instance, I do not consider bearing children a right, and yet some folks insist it is.

We have trouble talking about rights, I suppose, because we use the word for VERY different concepts. I imagine it as a political construct, and someone else uses it to define fundamentals of existence.

And then it's such an emotional hot-button: "You're taking away my RIGHTS, man!" that people use it whenever they're not getting whatever they think they deserve.

 

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
Ah, I'm getting your drift.  You've given me something to chew on - as usual.

Back to reading Harner.

 oldslabsides wrote: 
I'm with you on that. Just not getting over the very anthropocentric notion of individual rights. I know we're not talking about the same thing, and I don't mean to argue. I just find it a bit humorous that we - humankind - think we have rights at all. (Or that we have even a vague ability to secure for ourselves without harming or stealing - too funny! Or not so funny if you're prey, or your habitat gets destroyed so that the higher animal can have some security. Yes. I think we're just very, very smart animals.)

We're here by the whim of chemistry and stardust. And we can be gone by the very same agents.

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
The alternative has been amply demonstrated by despots through the ages.

I find the concept of natural rights far easier to wrap my little brain around than say, the divine right of kings.  To me, the concept of individual rights is part of our being every bit as real as flesh, bone and spirit.

 jadewahoo wrote: 
But WE ARE the GOVERNMENT! 
The Constitution starts out

We the People  of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 .
 

..........that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Lincoln

 oldslabsides wrote: 
Mmmmkay. I guess I get your gist. Can't think of any way to prove that a construct such as "rights" exists in the first place, though.

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
I consider them natural rights - those things we can do for ourselves or secure for ourselves without harming or stealing from others.  They've existed far longer than the constitution.

 oldslabsides wrote: 
Slab - just wanting some clarification of your thinking: where do these rights we're born with originate? Some doctrine of humanity, or are you talking about the Constitution?

 jadewahoo wrote: 
I guess my concept of rights is somewhat different than yours.  We're born with them and they cannot be created or added to.

Whatever contracts or agreements individuals make in free will between one another create entitlements or privileges, not rights.  Calling something de facto doesn't change the principle I'm trying to enunciate anymore than saying because the cripes or bloods control Compton makes their control legitimate.  Principle is a very important thing to me and it causes me a lot of internal conflict, not to mention external heckling.  Neither makes me value it any less.

 oldslabsides wrote: 
The analogy is not between slavery and health care, but rather freedom and health care. Sorry if I was not clear on that. Both, as I mentioned, are de facto natural rights. That is, while they may not be encoded in law - they might even be denied by law - they each are the right of every peron to secure. Just as freedom is a thing to which we look to governments ot protect, so, in a more enlightened society, would health care, clean water, shelter and food be rights be. Again, not by government grant nor decree, but calling upon  government as the expression of the common weal to secure the opportunity that these natural rights are not inhibited nor denied due to class, income or affiliation.

Never ever would I suggest that the government issue us the right ot health care, for, as we all know, what the governmetn can give, the government can take away... it, in essence, would own that right, not we.

 bokey wrote: 
Fire

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
Good point, there was always one running  down there when I was a kid. I looked around for one, but even if I found it , it'd probably be mold contaminated itself from sitting around  down there for years.

  I'll have to look around and check out some reviews and get a new one.

Documentation, Hippa, Pre-authorizations, Co-pays- In network - PCP Referrals, Limited Clauses, Malpractice Insurance, Life-time benefit... ... ...  ...  

INSURANCE PRISON

 bokey wrote: 
Get a dehumidifier running first.

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
I've also  thought it might be basement mold, it was an incredibly wet spring and the area  around the basement door is looking kind of funky and it's right under  where I'm sitting as I type.
 I've got no clue how to clean it up though.

 bokey wrote: 
Maybe you need a HEPA filter.

 BlueHeronDruid wrote: 
 I can't even take a nap for 2 hours anymore without it happening. Maybe I need to learn to sleep standing up like a horse.

 I'd get all this clear stuff coming out, followed by a blast of bright yellow stuff( the yellow stuff has been gone for a few weeks now, I was hoping this would end).

 bokey wrote: 
Sorry Flonase didn't work for you. For me, it's the reason I can sleep with the windows open all year round, and not wake up choking with the nasal drip.

Don't have that big a problem but when I prepare to make some sounds,I always clear the pipes with a wash ! Guess I'm addicted to salt !

 HazzeSwede wrote: 
I've been using it and it helps, but sometimes you have to break down and use the real stuff, like Dristan or Afrin , which you  get addicted to.