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oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 12:48pm



 miamizsun wrote:


if it was up to me i'd gather all of it up and load it into the new spacex bfr and fire that sparkler into the void
 
No J. It has to be available to be rejected. Otherwise nothing will be lifted up.
But I understand what you're saying. It seems impossible ...

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 12:44pm

 oldviolin wrote:
A person has to first reject fear, hatred, and violence in their own heart. All of it. That means to stop shopping for it, stop consuming it, stop digesting it, stop wasting time over it. Reject it in all it's insidious forms.
 

if it was up to me i'd gather all of it up and load it into the new spacex bfr and fire that sparkler into the void
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 12:36pm



 miamizsun wrote:


i'm picking up what you're laying down here

and all of this anger, like this guy strolling through a traffic jam with a firearm is totally irresponsible and dangerous af

we've got to introduce and encourage some sort of reason and logic into public discourse

a rational discussion and/or trying to persuade or influence a rational person is much more effective than polarizing speech/behavior

peaceful negotiation is where it's at

or where it should be

brotato



 

A person has to first reject fear, hatred, and violence in their own heart. All of it. That means to stop shopping for it, stop consuming it, stop digesting it, stop wasting time over it. Reject it in all it's insidious forms.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:16am



 Lazy8 wrote:
Proclivities wrote:
I didn't assert that he should have been shot 16 times or that any of those things should've happened to him, nor was I following line of logic.  Of course we should all have our rights respected equally and expect the same outcomes.  My point (which I prefaced with a "maybe") was that if he were a darker-skinned man, waving a loaded handgun around and pointing it at people, there is (in recent history), a higher likelihood that he would've been shot by the police.  Obviously, there are a lot of variables: the location, the behavior of the person, their compliance with the police, the behaviors of the other people involved, etc.; I was just submitting an answer to your question.

...but not addressing the issue I raised: that the whole concept of privilege in this context is bogus.

It's not a privilege to not be shot, it's a right. Failing to respect one set of people's rights does not privilege the rest, it disadvantages those whose rights aren't respected. This is not a subtle distinction, it goes to the heart of the debate about abuse at the hands of the state.

Nobody should be abused by the state. Highlighting an instance where it didn't happen as the problem distorts the debate.
 
True, I wasn't so much addressing the "concept of privilege" as I was just pointing out a possible difference of outcomes - I guess that could be considered more of an advantage than a privilege (slight difference).  "White privilege" is a different debate than ones about abuses carried out by the state, and I agree about how easily those debates can be distorted.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:16am

 oldviolin wrote:
Hate feeds hatred, which in turn feeds more hatred, which in turn poisons with hatred. 
it takes a great strength to reject it. I don't see that strength much in the public discourse. Sadly not much at all. I see more the opposite. Feeding the monsters inside with fear. It will get so much worse if you don't stop. Don't you understand?

 

i'm picking up what you're laying down here

and all of this anger, like this guy strolling through a traffic jam with a firearm is totally irresponsible and dangerous af

we've got to introduce and encourage some sort of reason and logic into public discourse

a rational discussion and/or trying to persuade or influence a rational person is much more effective than polarizing speech/behavior

peaceful negotiation is where it's at

or where it should be

brotato



sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:14am

 Proclivities wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
Proclivities wrote:
Maybe not shot 16 times.
Also ability to smile for mugshot. Not roughed up by police while being taken in. Knowing that with a call to his attorney he will be home tonight, and with a call to his new PR firm he will get favorable news coverage to mitigate any sense of racial motivation for pulling a gun on those differently colored kids....

So...his rights as a criminal defendant were respected, because white male privilege, which is bad.

So...he should have been shot 16 times?

He should have been roughed up?

He shouldn't be able to call a lawyer?

He shouldn't be able to tell his story?

Just trying to follow the logic here, if any. Identity politics has distorted the very language we use to discuss these issues. The implication here is that all would be well with the world if white people were abused by the police as often and as badly as black people. That is entirely backwards. This is the outcome we should all expect, regardless of race.

He doesn't have more rights than black people, but in this instance they were respected. The problem to fix isn't that his were respected but that others' weren't. The problem isn't solved when we all get abused equally, but when we all have our rights respected.
 

I didn't assert that he should have been shot 16 times or that any of those things should've happened to him, nor was I following that line of logic.  Of course we should all have our rights respected equally and expect the same outcomes.  My point (which I prefaced with a "maybe") was that if he were a darker-skinned man, waving a loaded handgun around and pointing it at people, there is (in recent history), a higher likelihood that he would've been shot by the police.  Obviously, there are a lot of variables: the location, the behavior of the person, their compliance with the police, the behaviors of the other people involved, etc.; I was just submitting an answer to your question.

 
Now that is a fair point, but the context of this is even more complex.  Is it this way purely because cops are racist and need to change or is it because most of the incidents that occur are usually in poverty stricken areas where the majority of residents are people of color and crime is high?  The short answer is yes.   The police in these areas face this everyday and most of their perpetrators look a certain way and many are doing bad things, there are natural biases that build over time resulting in over hyped reaction based upon the appearance of the suspect.   Are there racist cops? Of course there are, but again things are not so clear in this area as they were in the 60s and prior.  And of course Lazy's point is well on point as usual as well.


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 9:03am

Proclivities wrote:
I didn't assert that he should have been shot 16 times or that any of those things should've happened to him, nor was I following line of logic.  Of course we should all have our rights respected equally and expect the same outcomes.  My point (which I prefaced with a "maybe") was that if he were a darker-skinned man, waving a loaded handgun around and pointing it at people, there is (in recent history), a higher likelihood that he would've been shot by the police.  Obviously, there are a lot of variables: the location, the behavior of the person, their compliance with the police, the behaviors of the other people involved, etc.; I was just submitting an answer to your question.

...but not addressing the issue I raised: that the whole concept of privilege in this context is bogus.

It's not a privilege to not be shot, it's a right. Failing to respect one set of people's rights does not privilege the rest, it disadvantages those whose rights aren't respected. This is not a subtle distinction, it goes to the heart of the debate about abuse at the hands of the state.

Nobody should be abused by the state. Highlighting an instance where it didn't happen as the problem distorts the debate.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 8:51am



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
Proclivities wrote:
Maybe not shot 16 times.
Also ability to smile for mugshot. Not roughed up by police while being taken in. Knowing that with a call to his attorney he will be home tonight, and with a call to his new PR firm he will get favorable news coverage to mitigate any sense of racial motivation for pulling a gun on those differently colored kids....

So...his rights as a criminal defendant were respected, because white male privilege, which is bad.

So...he should have been shot 16 times?

He should have been roughed up?

He shouldn't be able to call a lawyer?

He shouldn't be able to tell his story?

Just trying to follow the logic here, if any. Identity politics has distorted the very language we use to discuss these issues. The implication here is that all would be well with the world if white people were abused by the police as often and as badly as black people. That is entirely backwards. This is the outcome we should all expect, regardless of race.

He doesn't have more rights than black people, but in this instance they were respected. The problem to fix isn't that his were respected but that others' weren't. The problem isn't solved when we all get abused equally, but when we all have our rights respected.
 

I didn't assert that he should have been shot 16 times or that any of those things should've happened to him, nor was I following that line of logic or implying "equal mistreatment".  Of course we should all have our rights respected equally and expect the same outcomes.  My point (which I prefaced with a "maybe") was that if he were a darker-skinned man, waving a loaded handgun around and pointing it at people, there is (in recent history), a higher likelihood that he would've been shot by the police.  Obviously, there are a lot of variables: the location, the behavior of the person, their compliance with the police, the behaviors of the other people involved, etc.; I was just submitting an answer to your question.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 8:33am

islander wrote:
Proclivities wrote:
Maybe not shot 16 times.
Also ability to smile for mugshot. Not roughed up by police while being taken in. Knowing that with a call to his attorney he will be home tonight, and with a call to his new PR firm he will get favorable news coverage to mitigate any sense of racial motivation for pulling a gun on those differently colored kids....

So...his rights as a criminal defendant were respected, because white male privilege, which is bad.

So...he should have been shot 16 times?

He should have been roughed up?

He shouldn't be able to call a lawyer?

He shouldn't be able to tell his story?

Just trying to follow the logic here, if any. Identity politics has distorted the very language we use to discuss these issues. The implication here is that all would be well with the world if white people were abused by the police as often and as badly as black people. That is entirely backwards. This is the outcome we should all expect, regardless of race.

He doesn't have more rights than black people, but in this instance they were respected. The problem to fix isn't that his were respected but that others' weren't. The problem isn't solved when we all get abused equally, but when we all have our rights respected.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 7:55am

 islander wrote:


 Proclivities wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
The face of white male privilege...


He was arrested and charged
. What did his privilege get him again?
 
Maybe not shot 16 times.

 

Also ability to smile for mugshot. Not roughed up by police while being taken in. Knowing that with a call to his attorney he will be home tonight, and with a call to his new PR firm he will get favorable news coverage to mitigate any sense of racial motivation for pulling a gun on those differently colored kids....

 
Sans the roughed up part most of those things are dependent on green not white or black.  Poor people of all colors and persuasions generally as Southpark would say "Are going to have a bad time" with any contact with the authorities or legal system.  His privilege is his wallet, now you can argue wider generational factors that produce a society where white people have more money in general, but this is not 1963.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 7:47am



 Proclivities wrote:


 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
The face of white male privilege...




He was arrested and charged
. What did his privilege get him again?
 
Maybe not shot 16 times.

 

Also ability to smile for mugshot. Not roughed up by police while being taken in. Knowing that with a call to his attorney he will be home tonight, and with a call to his new PR firm he will get favorable news coverage to mitigate any sense of racial motivation for pulling a gun on those differently colored kids....
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 7:44am



 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
The face of white male privilege...




He was arrested and charged
. What did his privilege get him again?
 
Maybe not shot 16 times.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 7:32am

Red_Dragon wrote:
The face of white male privilege...




He was arrested and charged
. What did his privilege get him again?
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 5:39am

Hate feeds hatred, which in turn feeds more hatred, which in turn poisons with hatred. 
it takes a great strength to reject it. I don't see that strength much in the public discourse. Sadly not much at all. I see more the opposite. Feeding the monsters inside with fear. It will get so much worse if you don't stop. Don't you understand?
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 23, 2019 - 5:18am



 Red_Dragon wrote:
The face of white male privilege...
 

of course it is

the news inflames the hell out of people, repeatedly

advising people to stay off the streets to avoid these displays/demonstrations

this whole wheels up guns down thing has been going on for a while

it's finally coming to a head

the cops are arresting bikers and some of them are armed

of course that bit doesn't help dr king's message of non-violence



Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 22, 2019 - 7:23pm



 Red_Dragon wrote:

 


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 22, 2019 - 6:31pm

The face of white male privilege...



Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 20, 2019 - 4:24pm


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2019 - 5:57am

This is an excellent article on a very interesting film.    If you widen the ripple from the core of what is discussed regarding the reasons for extremism, the same principles apply for the less extreme though just as divided social atmosphere of modern society and the lessons learned regarding these extremist can be applied to us all. 


This filmmaker spent months interviewing neo-Nazis and jihadists. Here’s what she learned.



Deeyah Khan, a Muslim woman, met her enemies — and came away more hopeful than ever.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 17, 2019 - 4:10pm

Inside the GM plant where nooses and 'whites-only' signs intimidated workers
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