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helenofjoy

helenofjoy Avatar

Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 4:06pm

I was baptised in an army chapel as "christian" and my father, a multiple divorcee married a young catholic woman who was promptly excommunicated, to help raise me after my Mother's suicide - which damned her to hell in most, if not all, religions.  I was allowed to attend any service I wished and make up my own mind. In a southern baptist church,  I watched as a curch leader pulled his daughters out of a summer youth camp because the youth leader had been a jew at one time and had converted to the baptist faith.  I was twelve or so.  The catholic church told me my step mom was not worthy of membership for marrying my father.  I felt sorry for the jews - my Russian birth mother shared the concentration camp experience with them.  I never understood the different divisions of christianity, but I read the bible hoping to learn why things were as they were.  I watched friends who spoke in tongues and spouted scripture as though it was written in brail on the surface of their brains, scheme and plot and steal their way through their lives as though they were entitled because they were born again.  I'm no longer confused.  My connection to "God" is probably stronger than that of those who attend church every Sunday and I haven't stepped foot in a church in years.  Organized religion certainly seems to me to be a necessity to those who really need the guidance to keep them from hurting others as they struggle through their otherwise meaningless lives.  It offers hope too, for those who have none of their own.  We have to be patient with those who think differently.  We are all really one here on this planet. 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 2:54pm

 winter wrote:


Christians don't bother me. I don't have a problem with any religion, really: believe what you like, so long as you afford me the same space and the same respect.
 
I have far more respect for you than most "believers" - of whatever organized religion, my friend.  As for space, we have a guest room whenever you care to visit.
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 2:50pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Believe it or not "Christians" probably get me about as upset as they do you.  Like you, I was raised in one of the more fundamental wings of the religion and bought it hook, line and sinker for most of my life.  When I realized what I'd been sold, well, let's just say I'm only just now getting over the anger.  Doing so has required a conscious effort.

 



Christians don't bother me. I don't have a problem with any religion, really: believe what you like, so long as you afford me the same space and the same respect.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 2:42pm

 winter wrote:


I know that you didn't intend any insult. That's not you. The whole Church of England issue is as much a non-issue to me as "In God We Trust" on our currency. People see it for the basically meaningless formality it is, I think: saying that supports Cameron's assertion seems to me like calling their government a tyranny because they still have hereditary monarchs. When people in positions of power and leadership say stuff like "this is a Christian nation", they encourage the more overt bigots to come out from under their rocks. The more obstacles we place in the way of people participating in our society, however subtle, the more we widen the divide between the In Crowd and Those Jerks. It's one thing to be marginalized by idiots writing letters to the editor, and quite another to hear it from a respected national leader with a wide following.
 
Believe it or not "Christians" probably get me about as upset as they do you.  Like you, I was raised in one of the more fundamental wings of the religion and bought it hook, line and sinker for most of my life.  When I realized what I'd been sold, well, let's just say I'm only just now getting over the anger.  Doing so has required a conscious effort.
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 2:28pm

 oldslabsides wrote:
sadly, he's probably correct in saying so.  certainly far moreso than when some claim America is one, anyway.

 

I just went back to find this article and to see how it was reported elsewhere.  The speech didn't make a ripple here as far as I can see- he was making a speech to a bunch of church of england clergy and clearly choosing his words for his audience.  Absolutely no commentary pieces about it, loads on the ongoing spat with the French though!!


arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 1:58pm

 winter wrote:


I'm not on a crusade. But I'm not convinced that a nation is defined by history, tradition, or law. Britain is no more inherently Christian than France or the US. And yes, I feel the slap of it here on the far side of the globe because there is no justification for saying that as an atheist I am less of a citizen, less of a patriot, less a member of society than anyone else. So to hear someone (especially a friend) take the position that it may be offensive but it's true nonetheless bothers me, frankly.

  Whether you know it or not, my friend, you are a crusader.

winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 1:50pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Never mind that whole Church of England is the state-established religion thing.  I know, they don't pay it much mind anymore... still, it's there.

I never intended my post as any sort of insult to you, but I'll try to be more careful about my links to news stories in future now that I'm aware of your sensitivity. 

 



I know that you didn't intend any insult. That's not you.

The whole Church of England issue is as much a non-issue to me as "In God We Trust" on our currency. People see it for the basically meaningless formality it is, I think: saying that supports Cameron's assertion seems to me like calling their government a tyranny because they still have hereditary monarchs.

When people in positions of power and leadership say stuff like "this is a Christian nation", they encourage the more overt bigots to come out from under their rocks. The more obstacles we place in the way of people participating in our society, however subtle, the more we widen the divide between the In Crowd and Those Jerks. It's one thing to be marginalized by idiots writing letters to the editor, and quite another to hear it from a respected national leader with a wide following.
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 1:20pm

It's funny to see England and religion in the same paragraph.  Religion just isn't talked about here.  God knows what planet Cameron was on.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 1:11pm

 winter wrote:


I'm not on a crusade. But I'm not convinced that a nation is defined by history, tradition, or law. Britain is no more inherently Christian than France or the US. And yes, I feel the slap of it here on the far side of the globe because there is no justification for saying that as an atheist I am less of a citizen, less of a patriot, less a member of society than anyone else. So to hear someone (especially a friend) take the position that it may be offensive but it's true nonetheless bothers me, frankly.
 
Never mind that whole Church of England is the state-established religion thing.  I know, they don't pay it much mind anymore... still, it's there.

I never intended my post as any sort of insult to you, but I'll try to be more careful about my links to news stories in future now that I'm aware of your sensitivity. 
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 1:05pm

 arighter2 wrote:
Never get in the way of a man on a crusade. {#Lol}

 



I'm not on a crusade. But I'm not convinced that a nation is defined by history, tradition, or law. Britain is no more inherently Christian than France or the US. And yes, I feel the slap of it here on the far side of the globe because there is no justification for saying that as an atheist I am less of a citizen, less of a patriot, less a member of society than anyone else. So to hear someone (especially a friend) take the position that it may be offensive but it's true nonetheless bothers me, frankly.
arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 12:58pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

I'm not saying I think it's a good idea - I don't.  I'm saying that it is the reality.

But, well... schlabby's wrong again.  He should know to just stfu by now.   Never mind.

  Never get in the way of a man on a crusade. {#Lol}


Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 11:29am

 winter wrote:


History shmistory. The US is historically a white nation, by that logic. And it's no less offensive to say so than it is to blather about being a Christian nation. Cameron isn't giving a history lesson, he's advocating for Christianity.
 
I'm not saying I think it's a good idea - I don't.  I'm saying that it is the reality.

But, well... schlabby's wrong again.  He should know to just stfu by now.   Never mind.


winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:29am

 mzpro5 wrote:




Yes it's the limitation of the iPad, I was just kidding.

 



Gotcha. Same problem here. ;)
mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:27am

 winter wrote:




I am going to assume you forgot to put the appropriate smiley after that.

 



Yes it's the limitation of the iPad, I was just kidding.
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:23am

 mzpro5 wrote:




The fact that you are an atheist automatically makes you immoral.

 



I am going to assume you forgot to put the appropriate smiley after that.
mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:22am

 winter wrote:




I agree.



My atheism makes me no more or less moral than anyone of any other belief.

 



The fact that you are an atheist automatically makes you immoral.
mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:20am

 winter wrote:




300 years ago we were British subjects over here. ;)

 



Not me I'm only 60. :)
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:20am

 islander wrote:

From the article:
"But what I am saying is that the Bible has helped to give Britain a set of values and morals which make Britain what it is today."
 

It really bugs me when people say crap like this. Sure maybe the bible enumerates some of these things. But morals and values come from people, not from words in a book. It's not like we wouldn't have morals and values without the bible. If you want to base your beliefs on a book, that's all well and good, but I don't need some ancient text (that's been transcribed by people with an agenda for a few hundred years) to tell me to be nice to the neighbors.

 



I agree.

My atheism makes me no more or less moral than anyone of any other belief.
winter

winter Avatar

Location: in exile, as always
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:18am

 mzpro5 wrote:




Didn't you guys fight a civil war partly over that subject 300+ years ago?

 



300 years ago we were British subjects over here. ;)
MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 17, 2011 - 9:18am

 oldslabsides wrote:

Oh, I agree.  What I'm saying is that historically, England is a lot closer to being an officially "Christian nation" than not - I think that's the PM's position.

 

Legally we are, practically we are not if that makes sense.  For example the queen is head of state and head of the church of england, however whilst all the political leaders do the formal stuff like church at christmas they dont't talk religion.  Actually the labour leader is an aetheist and it is a non-issue here as it doesn't play as a voting for him or not matter.

and loads of what Cameron says is twaddle, pity us.


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