I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

Yeah, about that...

Protesters in Ferguson, for example, took a different approach. It didn't just make people angry, it brought out a highly-militarized police force.

Marchers try to march peacefully, and are set upon by counter-protesters. Protesters have been viciously beaten - by members of both (every) faction. Sometimes the police intervene, sometimes not. I'm sure race never enters into that equation...

The fact is, black folks live in a different world than white folks. Fact. White parents are not terrified their sons and daughters may not come home. White kids don't necessarily have 'The Talk' drilled into them. White folks do not suffer the daily casual indignities that black folks do. Oprah freakin' Winfrey was followed around a high-end store. The sales manager didn't see the most powerful woman in media, she saw a black woman: danger!

Black folks have protested in every possible other way. Peacefully, violently, sit-ins, strikes, you name it. When the Black Panthers decided to patrol their streets with long guns, perfectly legal, the laws were changed to make it illegal to carry long guns in certain (predominantly black) neighborhoods. Today white folks bring assault rifles to demonstrations with no repercussions. Say what you will about the 2nd amendment, but apply it uniformly. A black man was shot and killed in his car, after he told the officer he had a gun and a license to carry it. He did what the rules say he should, and was murdered anyway. And white folks wonder why some black folks are terrified of police officers? 

Black folks have tried everything with little progress. In many ways conditions are getting worse for people of color. They have every right to protest by legal and peaceful means. 

I disagreed with sitting on the bench: it's a sign of disrespect in any setting. But kneeling is silent, reflective, even reverential. Colin Kaepernick and Nate Boyer had a serious discussion about the issue, and kneeling was their compromise: respectful protest. And still people lost their minds. What do you suggest? Sing Kumbaya at halftime? What means of protest will satisfy you? What form of protest would get your attention, yet not offend you? I really would like to know, and I'm sure folks like Colin Kaepernick would like to know too.

The whole 'disrespecting the military' is a false narrative designed to denigrate the protest. Mr. Kaepernick and fellow protesters were specific about their reasons.

The fact White America is making such a big deal about this is proof his actions are having some effect. The problem for White America though, it is shining an unwelcome light on the more sordid aspects of US history. History that draws a straight line to the present-day situation. White America does not want to face up to the truth of that history, and certainly doesn't want to face up to how it affects everyday life for black folks.

Peace Y'all,
c.

 You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 cc_rider wrote:
 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

Okay sure, some people don't like it. White, black, or plaid. But what is it going to take for good people, of all colors, to face the real history and make meaningful progress?

In the South there's a lot of talk, and actions, about removing Confederate statues, plaques, etc. There is a plaque in the Texas State Capitol that is particularly egregious. It denies slavery was the primary reason for the Civil War. It was placed circa 1959, in reaction to the social changes starting to happen. To put it in the vernacular, "Them damn n______ was gettin' uppity". And White America was then, and is now, terrified of 'Uppity N______'. That is the crux of the issue, then and now.

The sports pages are full of examples of backlash against athletes speaking up. When LeBron James spoke his mind, people said 'shut up and dribble'. Just one recent example. What they did to Ali was criminal, for an old example. As superstar athletes they have a unique platform to bring attention to important issues. Many sports figures have done great work and are rightly lauded. But one steps out of line, and all of a sudden they're branded a dumb jock, or fined, or blackballed. As soon as one becomes an Uppity N_____, they're out.

People do not want to be confronted by uncomfortable facts, I get it. That doesn't change the facts. Shooting the messenger does not change the message. America is deeply racist, period. Not necessarily by individuals. I agree there are plenty of white folks who can't be considered racist and still object to kneeling. But it's just those people who need to understand where he is coming from. Nate Boyer, the epitome of class, listened to Mr. Kaepernick, and agreed he made good points, which is why he suggested kneeling. What is so terrifying about listening to the man, and trying to understand his point of view?

c.

 cc_rider wrote:
 

very well said, but i cant say i completely agree.  despite the headlines, which are effective at bringing to light the significant issues black people still face, i would argue the conditions, or more accurately the access to improved conditions are better then ever in this country.  

as a white person, i have no problem with the light being shone on this issue, or facing the truth of our history.  but i'm sure you didnt mean all of white america.  yet, there are still those white people who are not racist in any way who object to the kneeling.  

Yeah, about that...

Protesters in Ferguson, for example, took a different approach. It didn't just make people angry, it brought out a highly-militarized police force.

Marchers try to march peacefully, and are set upon by counter-protesters. Protesters have been viciously beaten - by members of both (every) faction. Sometimes the police intervene, sometimes not. I'm sure race never enters into that equation...

The fact is, black folks live in a different world than white folks. Fact. White parents are not terrified their sons and daughters may not come home. White kids don't necessarily have 'The Talk' drilled into them. White folks do not suffer the daily casual indignities that black folks do. Oprah freakin' Winfrey was followed around a high-end store. The sales manager didn't see the most powerful woman in media, she saw a black woman: danger!

Black folks have protested in every possible other way. Peacefully, violently, sit-ins, strikes, you name it. When the Black Panthers decided to patrol their streets with long guns, perfectly legal, the laws were changed to make it illegal to carry long guns in certain (predominantly black) neighborhoods. Today white folks bring assault rifles to demonstrations with no repercussions. Say what you will about the 2nd amendment, but apply it uniformly. A black man was shot and killed in his car, after he told the officer he had a gun and a license to carry it. He did what the rules say he should, and was murdered anyway. And white folks wonder why some black folks are terrified of police officers? 

Black folks have tried everything with little progress. In many ways conditions are getting worse for people of color. They have every right to protest by legal and peaceful means. 

I disagreed with sitting on the bench: it's a sign of disrespect in any setting. But kneeling is silent, reflective, even reverential. Colin Kaepernick and Nate Boyer had a serious discussion about the issue, and kneeling was their compromise: respectful protest. And still people lost their minds. What do you suggest? Sing Kumbaya at halftime? What means of protest will satisfy you? What form of protest would get your attention, yet not offend you? I really would like to know, and I'm sure folks like Colin Kaepernick would like to know too.

The whole 'disrespecting the military' is a false narrative designed to denigrate the protest. Mr. Kaepernick and fellow protesters were specific about their reasons.

The fact White America is making such a big deal about this is proof his actions are having some effect. The problem for White America though, it is shining an unwelcome light on the more sordid aspects of US history. History that draws a straight line to the present-day situation. White America does not want to face up to the truth of that history, and certainly doesn't want to face up to how it affects everyday life for black folks.

Peace Y'all,
c.

 cc_rider wrote:
 

Thanks; I wasn't being clear and I don't have enough patience with people who think Kaepernick is doing something/anything wrong to figure out how to state my case more better.

Yeah, about that...

Protesters in Ferguson, for example, took a different approach. It didn't just make people angry, it brought out a highly-militarized police force.

Marchers try to march peacefully, and are set upon by counter-protesters. Protesters have been viciously beaten - by members of both (every) faction. Sometimes the police intervene, sometimes not. I'm sure race never enters into that equation...

The fact is, black folks live in a different world than white folks. Fact. White parents are not terrified their sons and daughters may not come home. White kids don't necessarily have 'The Talk' drilled into them. White folks do not suffer the daily casual indignities that black folks do. Oprah freakin' Winfrey was followed around a high-end store. The sales manager didn't see the most powerful woman in media, she saw a black woman: danger!

Black folks have protested in every possible other way. Peacefully, violently, sit-ins, strikes, you name it. When the Black Panthers decided to patrol their streets with long guns, perfectly legal, the laws were changed to make it illegal to carry long guns in certain (predominantly black) neighborhoods. Today white folks bring assault rifles to demonstrations with no repercussions. Say what you will about the 2nd amendment, but apply it uniformly. A black man was shot and killed in his car, after he told the officer he had a gun and a license to carry it. He did what the rules say he should, and was murdered anyway. And white folks wonder why some black folks are terrified of police officers? 

Black folks have tried everything with little progress. In many ways conditions are getting worse for people of color. They have every right to protest by legal and peaceful means. 

I disagreed with sitting on the bench: it's a sign of disrespect in any setting. But kneeling is silent, reflective, even reverential. Colin Kaepernick and Nate Boyer had a serious discussion about the issue, and kneeling was their compromise: respectful protest. And still people lost their minds. What do you suggest? Sing Kumbaya at halftime? What means of protest will satisfy you? What form of protest would get your attention, yet not offend you? I really would like to know, and I'm sure folks like Colin Kaepernick would like to know too.

The whole 'disrespecting the military' is a false narrative designed to denigrate the protest. Mr. Kaepernick and fellow protesters were specific about their reasons.

The fact White America is making such a big deal about this is proof his actions are having some effect. The problem for White America though, it is shining an unwelcome light on the more sordid aspects of US history. History that draws a straight line to the present-day situation. White America does not want to face up to the truth of that history, and certainly doesn't want to face up to how it affects everyday life for black folks.

Peace Y'all,
c.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
I guess my point is that I am not really advocating anything other than a better way to protest because in my opinion this one has run its course and is not working in addition to just making everyone more angry and anger is rarely productive.  Seems like a simple gesture for an extremely complex issue and those that think the issue of social justice is not much more complicated in 2018 as opposed to 1968 are just not going to get very far with their opinions outside of the social media echo chamber, they are just not.  Now this is my opinion.

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

Sure, but you're advocating letting those people change the definition of the protest, and then wherever the dust settles, that's what the protest was about.

Unless you're just one of those nuts who thinks any flag-related protest is abhorrent. I don't. If it's germane to the thing that flag represents, protest away.

Does it?  How much discussion is about what they are protesting as opposed to those upset about the anthem and I would submit that with the medias "help" is only to stoke the fires of anger and division because ratings are where the fire is. 

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

That's not what I said and you're demonstrating my point. 
"Why are they kneeling?"
"To protest government violence against citizens, they're not taking part in the ceremony that celebrates the flag, which is a symbol of the nation doing that violence."
"Well I don't like them. They wet their nests."

It's  a total non sequitur. Why give in to it? Why let fucking morons set the bar? It's as inoffensive as it can be, and if you refuse to let its meaning be changed by racists, it delivers its message well.

Good for you, but not caring what someone cares about the protest is not exactly a way to achieve goals that require understanding from non bigots who would otherwise be sympathetic to the social struggles of the poor and minorities with the legal system and police.  

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

I care fuckall for people who apply their own definition to a protest. Kneeling for the Anthem? Clearly, that's a rejection of Bird Watchers and all the Gannets they've ever counted. 

This is not a position, it is how people will perceive this act and that in it of itself makes it a fact.  I understand what they are doing, but my opinion is irrelevant and not one of the people they are trying to reach.  Perception is everything, the flag and the national anthem is a personal thing to each individual and what you and I think will not change that or their individualized reaction to it.  You tell a Vet who raises and salutes that flag everyday that the act of kneeling or rejecting that flag and anthem is not rejecting what he feels about that flag and how he should separate them, some may understand, many more will not and I am not going to force this rejection down their throat and tell them how they should decipher the action.  The fact that you interpreted what I said as a mandate is what those against this act or seeing the protest as, a mandate that they are only protesting their injustices and you are not allowed to see anything else and that the flag and the anthem can represent nothing else.

 sirdroseph wrote:
 

Bullshit. I am on deadline or I'd be more eloquent. But if you insist on taking this position, then so be it. Just understand that it's you, not me, who's mandating that it's a rejection of Apple Pie and Puppies.