islander wrote:
 
was referring to race card against those who oppose how he is protesting...but ok.  to be honest i havent been following the whole issue closely, so probably should shut up now.  

The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.

The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.

I know a lot of people with that view. I think many of them use that statement to cover their own racist feelings - sort of a "I know this is wrong, but it can't be due to racism, because we solved that problem". 

I'm in Seattle and there are a lot of white people in this lily white region who think there is no racism in this country. Several of them who worked for me were really shocked when I sent them to DC via Atlanta and they really saw some of the racism up close for the first time in their lives. 

 islander wrote:

I totally get the whole "things arent better" and understand people of color still dont have a level playing field, or even if they do, you can't just wipe the slate clean.  But I wonder if the reaction would be any different if Kaepernick was instead some long haired hippy type white kid?  I suppose if it was some crew cutted southern boy who went to Tennessee, maybe the reaction would have been less?  

And if it is a racist reaction, would it be better to simply ignore it and stick to the script: the kneeling isnt about being disrespectful, but about expressing a lingering issue with my country?  Kinda like the catholic who doesnt take the Eucharist when their conscience isnt clear?   I feel playing race card, justified or not, isnt very effective.  

I have heard people say that and write that. Right here, in fact. From a person who has never set foot below the Mason-Dixon line. Aggressive ignorance, I guess.

I am not accusing anyone of overt racism. I am only saying our society is built on a foundation of racism. It's baked in to the system. Those of us who reap the benefits don't notice. But those getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop* see how the field is tilted against them every day.

*Marilyn Monroe in 'Some Like It Hot'

Peace,
c.

I think you're right about a lot of the tribalism / intrinsic reactive side taking.  But this particular reaction to a fairly innocuous protest and the subsequent shaky justifications seem to point to a deeper undertone. As I noted, if it was really about respect for the flag, then we would be closing the beer stands and people complaining about the protest would never be found sitting (much less sitting on a flag motif blanket). If it were really about respect for the military, then Nate Boyer's opinion would have a lot more weight and people would at least acknowledge the changes he inspired and give credit to Kaepernick for his concessions and willingness to make them. 

I do think we still have substantial problems with race in this country. We have made great strides, but our unwillingness to acknowledge the problem and it's long term effects hold us back. We can't just say "all better now, no racism" when we have only made small steps and racism is still pretty easy to find. We also have a problem that is structural. I have no solution here and don't support reparations, affirmative action, quotas, ect. But I do see a clear point that people of color are generally worse off than others because of institutionalized practices based on race over centuries.  

Imagine you and I working in the same company doing similar jobs. The boss likes me better, so I get choice assignments, more favorable reviews, better raises and bonuses, a promotion or two, and the corner office. Now we get a new boss who recognizes the past inequalities. They declare "no more favoritism' and start treating everyone the same. You are happy about the change, but wouldn't you still feel slighted by the years of mistreatment? And wouldn't you feel some animosity everytime you walk by my cool office, sweet parking spot with the european convertible, and see me taking off for vacations paid for with my higher salary?

I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists, and I don't see why 'those people' can't just get over it - because there is no racism now", my sympathies go to people of color, and those (mostly on the left) who will at least acknowledge there is a problem.  When I see people freak out because Kaepernick is in an add deal with Nike, to the point that they are destroying their athletic goods,  It makes me wonder why. When the other factors like respect for the flag and respect for the military seem shaky when the full picture is considered, it doesn't leave a lot of options. Sure they are against him because of tribalism and an intrinsic reaction to anything that is threatening. But their unwillingness to listen to Nate Boyer, and their unwillingness to even grudginly acknowledge a problem with police brutality, makes me think that it has a lot to do with his race.

 black321 wrote:
 
to be clear, regarding this last comment, that's not what I believe (seems a few have misinterpreted).  I was trying to support my point this was less about racism and more about tribalism, for lack of a better word.  I made that comment to explain how i see what many white folks who have a beef with Kapernick (sp?) think...and  i think that thought process or position relates to the tribal fights between democrats and republicans... and is not based in racism.   The republican says I believe in no regulations and small gov and have no stomach for anyone who believes otherwise.  The democrat takes the opposite side, with neither willing to negotiate.  

for the record, and for what its worth, i totally get the point of the kneeling and have no issue with it.  

 black321 wrote:
 
to be clear, regarding this last comment, that's not what I believe (seems a few have misinterpreted - forum topic seems appropriate, ha).  I was trying to support my point this was less about racism and more about tribalism, for lack of a better word.  I made that comment to explain how i see what many white folks who have a beef with Kapernick (sp?) think...and  i think that thought process or position relates to the tribal fights between democrats and republicans... and is not based in racism.   The republican says I believe in no regulations and small gov and have no stomach for anyone who believes otherwise.  The democrat takes the opposite side, with neither willing to negotiate.  

for the record, and for what its worth, i totally get the point of the kneeling and have no issue with it.  

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

Sure.  Don't take your hat off or acknowledge anything.  They'll still have their flag and stand at attention to it while we lose all hope of symbolism united in some way because we're a nation of individuals on every single side of the cube.  Better pick a side.  They have.  Be reverent to something if you want to live within and back a society.  Eventually a nation full of individuals will fall.  

Let the first set of volleys tear some shit up from outside these grounds.  You'll be surprised how many people will forget about their vlogs and all they'll be equipped to do is stand there or sit there and watch the news and be appalled.

That's useful.

 ScottFromWyoming wrote: 
I guess my point is that I am not really advocating anything other than a better way to protest because in my opinion this one has run its course and is not working in addition to just making everyone more angry and anger is rarely productive.  Seems like a simple gesture for an extremely complex issue and those that think the issue of social justice is not much more complicated in 2018 as opposed to 1968 are just not going to get very far with their opinions outside of the social media echo chamber, they are just not.  Now this is my opinion.

Welcome to North Korea.

 cc_rider wrote:
 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

Yeah, about that...

Protesters in Ferguson, for example, took a different approach. It didn't just make people angry, it brought out a highly-militarized police force.

Marchers try to march peacefully, and are set upon by counter-protesters. Protesters have been viciously beaten - by members of both (every) faction. Sometimes the police intervene, sometimes not. I'm sure race never enters into that equation...

The fact is, black folks live in a different world than white folks. Fact. White parents are not terrified their sons and daughters may not come home. White kids don't necessarily have 'The Talk' drilled into them. White folks do not suffer the daily casual indignities that black folks do. Oprah freakin' Winfrey was followed around a high-end store. The sales manager didn't see the most powerful woman in media, she saw a black woman: danger!

Black folks have protested in every possible other way. Peacefully, violently, sit-ins, strikes, you name it. When the Black Panthers decided to patrol their streets with long guns, perfectly legal, the laws were changed to make it illegal to carry long guns in certain (predominantly black) neighborhoods. Today white folks bring assault rifles to demonstrations with no repercussions. Say what you will about the 2nd amendment, but apply it uniformly. A black man was shot and killed in his car, after he told the officer he had a gun and a license to carry it. He did what the rules say he should, and was murdered anyway. And white folks wonder why some black folks are terrified of police officers? 

Black folks have tried everything with little progress. In many ways conditions are getting worse for people of color. They have every right to protest by legal and peaceful means. 

I disagreed with sitting on the bench: it's a sign of disrespect in any setting. But kneeling is silent, reflective, even reverential. Colin Kaepernick and Nate Boyer had a serious discussion about the issue, and kneeling was their compromise: respectful protest. And still people lost their minds. What do you suggest? Sing Kumbaya at halftime? What means of protest will satisfy you? What form of protest would get your attention, yet not offend you? I really would like to know, and I'm sure folks like Colin Kaepernick would like to know too.

The whole 'disrespecting the military' is a false narrative designed to denigrate the protest. Mr. Kaepernick and fellow protesters were specific about their reasons.

The fact White America is making such a big deal about this is proof his actions are having some effect. The problem for White America though, it is shining an unwelcome light on the more sordid aspects of US history. History that draws a straight line to the present-day situation. White America does not want to face up to the truth of that history, and certainly doesn't want to face up to how it affects everyday life for black folks.

Peace Y'all,
c.