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islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:44am

 black321 wrote:


 islander wrote:
< stuff you can read below >

I totally get the whole "things arent better" and understand people of color still dont have a level playing field, or even if they do, you can't just wipe the slate clean.  But I wonder if the reaction would be any different if Kaepernick was instead some long haired hippy type white kid?  I suppose if it was some crew cutted southern boy who went to Tennessee, maybe the reaction would have been less?  

And if it is a racist reaction, would it be better to simply ignore it and stick to the script: the kneeling isnt about being disrespectful, but about expressing a lingering issue with my country?  Kinda like the catholic who doesnt take the Eucharist when their conscience isnt clear?   I feel playing race card, justified or not, isnt very effective.  

 
The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:40am

 cc_rider wrote:

I have heard people say that and write that. Right here, in fact. From a person who has never set foot below the Mason-Dixon line. Aggressive ignorance, I guess.

I am not accusing anyone of overt racism. I am only saying our society is built on a foundation of racism. It's baked in to the system. Those of us who reap the benefits don't notice. But those getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop* see how the field is tilted against them every day.

*Marilyn Monroe in 'Some Like It Hot'

Peace,
c.

 
Oh, I am freely accusing some of overt racism, no question about it.  It is just those people are virtually insignificant in that they are not interested in solutions to our racial disharmony. 
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:35am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
islander wrote:
I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists because there is no racism now"

I have actually never heard anyone say that before though I have heard people say the get over it part.  Do you really know anyone who thinks that there is no racism now?  I mean I am from the deep south and I know legit hardcore racist and have never heard even the most vile racist say that there is no racism now, they are not completely self unaware.  As for the rest, of course there are people who deny they are bigots, but they are also free to willingly espouse how others are. {#Lol}

 
I have heard people say that and write that. Right here, in fact. From a person who has never set foot below the Mason-Dixon line. Aggressive ignorance, I guess.

I am not accusing anyone of overt racism. I am only saying our society is built on a foundation of racism. It's baked in to the system. Those of us who reap the benefits don't notice. But those getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop* see how the field is tilted against them every day.

*Marilyn Monroe in 'Some Like It Hot'

Peace,
c.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:31am

 sirdroseph wrote:
 
islander wrote:



I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists because there is no racism now"

I have actually never heard anyone say that before though I have heard people say the get over it part.  Do you really know anyone who thinks that there is no racism now?  I mean I am from the deep south and I know legit hardcore racist and have never heard even the most vile racist say that there is no racism now, they are not completely self unaware.  As for the rest, of course there are people who deny they are bigots, but they are also free to willingly espouse how others are. {#Lol}



 
I know a lot of people with that view. I think many of them use that statement to cover their own racist feelings - sort of a "I know this is wrong, but it can't be due to racism, because we solved that problem". 

I'm in Seattle and there are a lot of white people in this lily white region who think there is no racism in this country. Several of them who worked for me were really shocked when I sent them to DC via Atlanta and they really saw some of the racism up close for the first time in their lives. 
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:21am



 islander wrote:

I think you're right about a lot of the tribalism / intrinsic reactive side taking.  But this particular reaction to a fairly innocuous protest and the subsequent shaky justifications seem to point to a deeper undertone. As I noted, if it was really about respect for the flag, then we would be closing the beer stands and people complaining about the protest would never be found sitting (much less sitting on a flag motif blanket). If it were really about respect for the military, then Nate Boyer's opinion would have a lot more weight and people would at least acknowledge the changes he inspired and give credit to Kaepernick for his concessions and willingness to make them. 

I do think we still have substantial problems with race in this country. We have made great strides, but our unwillingness to acknowledge the problem and it's long term effects hold us back. We can't just say "all better now, no racism" when we have only made small steps and racism is still pretty easy to find. We also have a problem that is structural. I have no solution here and don't support reparations, affirmative action, quotas, ect. But I do see a clear point that people of color are generally worse off than others because of institutionalized practices based on race over centuries.  

Imagine you and I working in the same company doing similar jobs. The boss likes me better, so I get choice assignments, more favorable reviews, better raises and bonuses, a promotion or two, and the corner office. Now we get a new boss who recognizes the past inequalities. They declare "no more favoritism' and start treating everyone the same. You are happy about the change, but wouldn't you still feel slighted by the years of mistreatment? And wouldn't you feel some animosity everytime you walk by my cool office, sweet parking spot with the european convertible, and see me taking off for vacations paid for with my higher salary?

I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists, and I don't see why 'those people' can't just get over it - because there is no racism now", my sympathies go to people of color, and those (mostly on the left) who will at least acknowledge there is a problem.  When I see people freak out because Kaepernick is in an add deal with Nike, to the point that they are destroying their athletic goods,  It makes me wonder why. When the other factors like respect for the flag and respect for the military seem shaky when the full picture is considered, it doesn't leave a lot of options. Sure they are against him because of tribalism and an intrinsic reaction to anything that is threatening. But their unwillingness to listen to Nate Boyer, and their unwillingness to even grudginly acknowledge a problem with police brutality, makes me think that it has a lot to do with his race.
 

I totally get the whole "things arent better" and understand people of color still dont have a level playing field, or even if they do, you can't just wipe the slate clean.  But I wonder if the reaction would be any different if Kaepernick was instead some long haired hippy type white kid?  I suppose if it was some crew cutted southern boy who went to Tennessee, maybe the reaction would have been less?  

And if it is a racist reaction, would it be better to simply ignore it and stick to the script: the kneeling isnt about being disrespectful, but about expressing a lingering issue with my country?  Kinda like the catholic who doesnt take the Eucharist when their conscience isnt clear?   I feel playing race card, justified or not, isnt very effective.  
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:19am

 
islander wrote:



I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists because there is no racism now"

I have actually never heard anyone say that before though I have heard people say the get over it part.  Do you really know anyone who thinks that there is no racism now?  I mean I am from the deep south and I know legit hardcore racist and have never heard even the most vile racist say that there is no racism now, they are not completely self unaware.  As for the rest, of course there are people who deny they are bigots, but they are also free to willingly espouse how others are. {#Lol}


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:10am

 black321 wrote:


 black321 wrote:
I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...
 
to be clear, regarding this last comment, that's not what I believe (seems a few have misinterpreted).  I was trying to support my point this was less about racism and more about tribalism, for lack of a better word.  I made that comment to explain how i see what many white folks who have a beef with Kapernick (sp?) think...and  i think that thought process or position relates to the tribal fights between democrats and republicans... and is not based in racism.   The republican says I believe in no regulations and small gov and have no stomach for anyone who believes otherwise.  The democrat takes the opposite side, with neither willing to negotiate.  

for the record, and for what its worth, i totally get the point of the kneeling and have no issue with it.  
 
I think you're right about a lot of the tribalism / intrinsic reactive side taking.  But this particular reaction to a fairly innocuous protest and the subsequent shaky justifications seem to point to a deeper undertone. As I noted, if it was really about respect for the flag, then we would be closing the beer stands and people complaining about the protest would never be found sitting (much less sitting on a flag motif blanket). If it were really about respect for the military, then Nate Boyer's opinion would have a lot more weight and people would at least acknowledge the changes he inspired and give credit to Kaepernick for his concessions and willingness to make them. 

I do think we still have substantial problems with race in this country. We have made great strides, but our unwillingness to acknowledge the problem and it's long term effects hold us back. We can't just say "all better now, no racism" when we have only made small steps and racism is still pretty easy to find. We also have a problem that is structural. I have no solution here and don't support reparations, affirmative action, quotas, ect. But I do see a clear point that people of color are generally worse off than others because of institutionalized practices based on race over centuries.  

Imagine you and I working in the same company doing similar jobs. The boss likes me better, so I get choice assignments, more favorable reviews, better raises and bonuses, a promotion or two, and the corner office. Now we get a new boss who recognizes the past inequalities. They declare "no more favoritism' and start treating everyone the same. You are happy about the change, but wouldn't you still feel slighted by the years of mistreatment? And wouldn't you feel some animosity everytime you walk by my cool office, sweet parking spot with the european convertible, and see me taking off for vacations paid for with my higher salary?

I don't have a solution. But when I see people, mostly on the right, saying "I'm not racist, I don't know any racists, and I don't see why 'those people' can't just get over it - because there is no racism now", my sympathies go to people of color, and those (mostly on the left) who will at least acknowledge there is a problem.  When I see people freak out because Kaepernick is in an add deal with Nike, to the point that they are destroying their athletic goods,  It makes me wonder why. When the other factors like respect for the flag and respect for the military seem shaky when the full picture is considered, it doesn't leave a lot of options. Sure they are against him because of tribalism and an intrinsic reaction to anything that is threatening. But their unwillingness to listen to Nate Boyer, and their unwillingness to even grudginly acknowledge a problem with police brutality, makes me think that it has a lot to do with his race.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:05am

 black321 wrote:


 black321 wrote:
I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...
 
to be clear, regarding this last comment, that's not what I believe (seems a few have misinterpreted - forum topic seems appropriate, ha).  I was trying to support my point this was less about racism and more about tribalism, for lack of a better word.  I made that comment to explain how i see what many white folks who have a beef with Kapernick (sp?) think...and  i think that thought process or position relates to the tribal fights between democrats and republicans... and is not based in racism.   The republican says I believe in no regulations and small gov and have no stomach for anyone who believes otherwise.  The democrat takes the opposite side, with neither willing to negotiate.  

for the record, and for what its worth, i totally get the point of the kneeling and have no issue with it.  

 

I actually have no issue myself with the act of kneeling to the anthem as a form of protest from any moral standpoint, my objections are purely strategic and logistical.  In other words were I in charge of a strategy to raise public awareness of police brutality and enlist assistance in legal reform in our justice system this would not be the method that I would choose.  However heard an interesting discussion yesterday on an FS1 sports show which imo has been producing the most honest, open and all inclusive discussions on this issue mostly because since almost all of the host are African Americans they are able to speak freely and one of the host brought up an interesting point related to "outing" those that are being irrationally passionate in opposition to the protest to the point to where their motives for this passion are suspect and the manifestation of this outing is the ridiculous burning of Nike products.  This serves a purpose to bring further honesty to the discussion that some of the white people so upset about the protest are really upset because "black folks gettin' uppity" for lack of a better description which will widen the debate to just general race issues left over from centuries of social conditioning of the oppressor.  Maybe this is the big ripping off of the band aid of the latent and repressed elephant in the room.   I suppose we will have turbulence, anger and pain to come before we socially evolve to at least some type of détente and understanding between white and black America to where we can celebrate both of our differences and similarities in an honest and civil manner.  This is the long game and maybe this is one of the paths to that end game.  So short story long, maybe this strategy will pay off in the long run, one can always hope. {#Meditate}




black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 6:20am



 black321 wrote:
I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...
 
to be clear, regarding this last comment, that's not what I believe (seems a few have misinterpreted - forum topic seems appropriate, ha).  I was trying to support my point this was less about racism and more about tribalism, for lack of a better word.  I made that comment to explain how i see what many white folks who have a beef with Kapernick (sp?) think...and  i think that thought process or position relates to the tribal fights between democrats and republicans... and is not based in racism.   The republican says I believe in no regulations and small gov and have no stomach for anyone who believes otherwise.  The democrat takes the opposite side, with neither willing to negotiate.  

for the record, and for what its worth, i totally get the point of the kneeling and have no issue with it.  

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 6:32pm

 FourFortyEight wrote:

Sure.  Don't take your hat off or acknowledge anything.  They'll still have their flag and stand at attention to it while we lose all hope of symbolism united in some way because we're a nation of individuals on every single side of the cube.  Better pick a side.  They have.  Be reverent to something if you want to live within and back a society.  Eventually a nation full of individuals will fall.  

Let the first set of volleys tear some shit up from outside these grounds.  You'll be surprised how many people will forget about their vlogs and all they'll be equipped to do is stand there or sit there and watch the news and be appalled.

That's useful.

 
I have no problem with being united - as long as what we're united behind is worthy. I'm fully supportive of being a united species, understanding that we are all one. Understanding that we live on a finite planet and acting accordingly. Fuck nationalism. Fuck exeptionalism. Patriotism is pure bullshit.

Humanity is what I'm reverent about. One society is what matters.


haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 6:24pm

 sirdroseph wrote:
 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Does it?  How much discussion is about what they are protesting as opposed to those upset about the anthem and I would submit that with the medias "help" is only to stoke the fires of anger and division because ratings are where the fire is. 
 

Sure, but you're advocating letting those people change the definition of the protest, and then wherever the dust settles, that's what the protest was about.

Unless you're just one of those nuts who thinks any flag-related protest is abhorrent. I don't. If it's germane to the thing that flag represents, protest away.

 
I guess my point is that I am not really advocating anything other than a better way to protest because in my opinion this one has run its course and is not working in addition to just making everyone more angry and anger is rarely productive.  Seems like a simple gesture for an extremely complex issue and those that think the issue of social justice is not much more complicated in 2018 as opposed to 1968 are just not going to get very far with their opinions outside of the social media echo chamber, they are just not.  Now this is my opinion. {#Lol}

 
The Australia back-story makes it pretty clear to me that people are not really objecting to how the protest was made but to the protest itself. What the heck would be an appropriate and effective way to bring attention to the issues?

The third man: The forgotten Black Power hero


FourFortyEight

FourFortyEight Avatar

Location: The Dirty South
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 6:07pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Welcome to North Korea.

 
Sure.  Don't take your hat off or acknowledge anything.  They'll still have their flag and stand at attention to it while we lose all hope of symbolism united in some way because we're a nation of individuals on every single side of the cube.  Better pick a side.  They have.  Be reverent to something if you want to live within and back a society.  Eventually a nation full of individuals will fall.  

Let the first set of volleys tear some shit up from outside these grounds.  You'll be surprised how many people will forget about their vlogs and all they'll be equipped to do is stand there or sit there and watch the news and be appalled.

That's useful.


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 4:46pm

 black321 wrote:


 cc_rider wrote:

Okay sure, some people don't like it. White, black, or plaid. But what is it going to take for good people, of all colors, to face the real history and make meaningful progress?

In the South there's a lot of talk, and actions, about removing Confederate statues, plaques, etc. There is a plaque in the Texas State Capitol that is particularly egregious. It denies slavery was the primary reason for the Civil War. It was placed circa 1959, in reaction to the social changes starting to happen. To put it in the vernacular, "Them damn n______ was gettin' uppity". And White America was then, and is now, terrified of 'Uppity N______'. That is the crux of the issue, then and now.

The sports pages are full of examples of backlash against athletes speaking up. When LeBron James spoke his mind, people said 'shut up and dribble'. Just one recent example. What they did to Ali was criminal, for an old example. As superstar athletes they have a unique platform to bring attention to important issues. Many sports figures have done great work and are rightly lauded. But one steps out of line, and all of a sudden they're branded a dumb jock, or fined, or blackballed. As soon as one becomes an Uppity N_____, they're out.

People do not want to be confronted by uncomfortable facts, I get it. That doesn't change the facts. Shooting the messenger does not change the message. America is deeply racist, period. Not necessarily by individuals. I agree there are plenty of white folks who can't be considered racist and still object to kneeling. But it's just those people who need to understand where he is coming from. Nate Boyer, the epitome of class, listened to Mr. Kaepernick, and agreed he made good points, which is why he suggested kneeling. What is so terrifying about listening to the man, and trying to understand his point of view?

c.
 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 
 
"too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem..."


You've just contradicted yourself. The USA is not a police state. Citizens are allowed to express their opinions about society and politics  in public settings. The Supreme Court has gone so far as to allow burning of the American flag as an expression of political speech. Americans should not be required to respect the flag.
 
AFAICT, however, you complain about people not being willing to compromise with opposing ideas in one sentence. Then in the next you prescribe proper conduct towards the flag or anthem without providing any real rationale for this requirement. Kneeling or linking arms during the anthem represents an opposing idea to your unthinking display of patriotism or allegiance. You seem to be the one unwilling to compromise with opposing ideas.
 
 

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 4:36pm

 black321 wrote:

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 
Welcome to North Korea.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 4:34pm

 black321 wrote:


 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 
So where is the NFL policy on closing the beer stands and stopping the flow of nacho cheese during the anthem?  What about locking the bathrooms, and electrifying the seats to ensure everyone is standing?  Honestly, I see more reverence for our anthem from the visiting Cannuks during hockey season that I see from most of my fellow citizens during any of the other occasions. Maybe they just have better writers?  True patriot love in all of us command.  Their whole anthem talks about the land and duty to it, our talks about symbols and what can be seen, and the perils of those that might oppose us.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 4:23pm

 cc_rider wrote:

Yeah, about that...

Protesters in Ferguson, for example, took a different approach. It didn't just make people angry, it brought out a highly-militarized police force.

Marchers try to march peacefully, and are set upon by counter-protesters. Protesters have been viciously beaten - by members of both (every) faction. Sometimes the police intervene, sometimes not. I'm sure race never enters into that equation...

The fact is, black folks live in a different world than white folks. Fact. White parents are not terrified their sons and daughters may not come home. White kids don't necessarily have 'The Talk' drilled into them. White folks do not suffer the daily casual indignities that black folks do. Oprah freakin' Winfrey was followed around a high-end store. The sales manager didn't see the most powerful woman in media, she saw a black woman: danger!

Black folks have protested in every possible other way. Peacefully, violently, sit-ins, strikes, you name it. When the Black Panthers decided to patrol their streets with long guns, perfectly legal, the laws were changed to make it illegal to carry long guns in certain (predominantly black) neighborhoods. Today white folks bring assault rifles to demonstrations with no repercussions. Say what you will about the 2nd amendment, but apply it uniformly. A black man was shot and killed in his car, after he told the officer he had a gun and a license to carry it. He did what the rules say he should, and was murdered anyway. And white folks wonder why some black folks are terrified of police officers? 

Black folks have tried everything with little progress. In many ways conditions are getting worse for people of color. They have every right to protest by legal and peaceful means. 

I disagreed with sitting on the bench: it's a sign of disrespect in any setting. But kneeling is silent, reflective, even reverential. Colin Kaepernick and Nate Boyer had a serious discussion about the issue, and kneeling was their compromise: respectful protest. And still people lost their minds. What do you suggest? Sing Kumbaya at halftime? What means of protest will satisfy you? What form of protest would get your attention, yet not offend you? I really would like to know, and I'm sure folks like Colin Kaepernick would like to know too.

The whole 'disrespecting the military' is a false narrative designed to denigrate the protest. Mr. Kaepernick and fellow protesters were specific about their reasons.

The fact White America is making such a big deal about this is proof his actions are having some effect. The problem for White America though, it is shining an unwelcome light on the more sordid aspects of US history. History that draws a straight line to the present-day situation. White America does not want to face up to the truth of that history, and certainly doesn't want to face up to how it affects everyday life for black folks.

Peace Y'all,
c.
 
Image result for clap gif

I would add that those who sit comfortably ensconced in the safety provided by society shouldn't really have a say in the method of peaceful protest of those fellow citizens who yearn for those same rights. 
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 4:00pm



 black321 wrote:


 You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...
 

Sure. To not do those things when you don't have a particular beef you need to draw attention to, but just because you don't feel like it, that's disrespectful. Or, if your grievance is great enough that it merits the sort of attention that this is getting, then I say go right ahead. If your grievance with the government is you don't like nacho cheese to be so yellow, then maybe the veterans have a point.
cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 3:24pm

 black321 wrote:


 cc_rider wrote:

Okay sure, some people don't like it. White, black, or plaid. But what is it going to take for good people, of all colors, to face the real history and make meaningful progress?

In the South there's a lot of talk, and actions, about removing Confederate statues, plaques, etc. There is a plaque in the Texas State Capitol that is particularly egregious. It denies slavery was the primary reason for the Civil War. It was placed circa 1959, in reaction to the social changes starting to happen. To put it in the vernacular, "Them damn n______ was gettin' uppity". And White America was then, and is now, terrified of 'Uppity N______'. That is the crux of the issue, then and now.

The sports pages are full of examples of backlash against athletes speaking up. When LeBron James spoke his mind, people said 'shut up and dribble'. Just one recent example. What they did to Ali was criminal, for an old example. As superstar athletes they have a unique platform to bring attention to important issues. Many sports figures have done great work and are rightly lauded. But one steps out of line, and all of a sudden they're branded a dumb jock, or fined, or blackballed. As soon as one becomes an Uppity N_____, they're out.

People do not want to be confronted by uncomfortable facts, I get it. That doesn't change the facts. Shooting the messenger does not change the message. America is deeply racist, period. Not necessarily by individuals. I agree there are plenty of white folks who can't be considered racist and still object to kneeling. But it's just those people who need to understand where he is coming from. Nate Boyer, the epitome of class, listened to Mr. Kaepernick, and agreed he made good points, which is why he suggested kneeling. What is so terrifying about listening to the man, and trying to understand his point of view?

c.
 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...

 
 I could not have said it better myself.

Peace,
c.


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 3:15pm



 cc_rider wrote:

Okay sure, some people don't like it. White, black, or plaid. But what is it going to take for good people, of all colors, to face the real history and make meaningful progress?

In the South there's a lot of talk, and actions, about removing Confederate statues, plaques, etc. There is a plaque in the Texas State Capitol that is particularly egregious. It denies slavery was the primary reason for the Civil War. It was placed circa 1959, in reaction to the social changes starting to happen. To put it in the vernacular, "Them damn n______ was gettin' uppity". And White America was then, and is now, terrified of 'Uppity N______'. That is the crux of the issue, then and now.

The sports pages are full of examples of backlash against athletes speaking up. When LeBron James spoke his mind, people said 'shut up and dribble'. Just one recent example. What they did to Ali was criminal, for an old example. As superstar athletes they have a unique platform to bring attention to important issues. Many sports figures have done great work and are rightly lauded. But one steps out of line, and all of a sudden they're branded a dumb jock, or fined, or blackballed. As soon as one becomes an Uppity N_____, they're out.

People do not want to be confronted by uncomfortable facts, I get it. That doesn't change the facts. Shooting the messenger does not change the message. America is deeply racist, period. Not necessarily by individuals. I agree there are plenty of white folks who can't be considered racist and still object to kneeling. But it's just those people who need to understand where he is coming from. Nate Boyer, the epitome of class, listened to Mr. Kaepernick, and agreed he made good points, which is why he suggested kneeling. What is so terrifying about listening to the man, and trying to understand his point of view?

c.
 

I still dont believe this is "mostly" a racist issue, but instead this rounds back to our political issues.  too many want their way or the highway, without any willingness to compromise with opposing ideas.  You stand, take your hat off, and put your hand on your heart during the anthem...
cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2018 - 3:06pm

 black321 wrote:


 cc_rider wrote:
 
 

very well said, but i cant say i completely agree.  despite the headlines, which are effective at bringing to light the significant issues black people still face, i would argue the conditions, or more accurately the access to improved conditions are better then ever in this country.  

as a white person, i have no problem with the light being shone on this issue, or facing the truth of our history.  but i'm sure you didnt mean all of white america.  yet, there are still those white people who are not racist in any way who object to the kneeling.  

 
Okay sure, some people don't like it. White, black, or plaid. But what is it going to take for good people, of all colors, to face the real history and make meaningful progress?

In the South there's a lot of talk, and actions, about removing Confederate statues, plaques, etc. There is a plaque in the Texas State Capitol that is particularly egregious. It denies slavery was the primary reason for the Civil War. It was placed circa 1959, in reaction to the social changes starting to happen. To put it in the vernacular, "Them damn n______ was gettin' uppity". And White America was then, and is now, terrified of 'Uppity N______'. That is the crux of the issue, then and now.

The sports pages are full of examples of backlash against athletes speaking up. When LeBron James spoke his mind, people said 'shut up and dribble'. Just one recent example. What they did to Ali was criminal, for an old example. As superstar athletes they have a unique platform to bring attention to important issues. Many sports figures have done great work and are rightly lauded. But one steps out of line, and all of a sudden they're branded a dumb jock, or fined, or blackballed. As soon as one becomes an Uppity N_____, they're out.

People do not want to be confronted by uncomfortable facts, I get it. That doesn't change the facts. Shooting the messenger does not change the message. America is deeply racist, period. Not necessarily by individuals. I agree there are plenty of white folks who can't be considered racist and still object to kneeling. But it's just those people who need to understand where he is coming from. Nate Boyer, the epitome of class, listened to Mr. Kaepernick, and agreed he made good points, which is why he suggested kneeling. What is so terrifying about listening to the man, and trying to understand his point of view?

c.
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