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buddy

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Posted: Jun 26, 2020 - 2:16pm

Roseanne Barr Anticipates Trump Ending Debt To Counter Titanic Sinking Plot

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Posted: Jun 26, 2020 - 11:04am

Now ask how many of them moved here from some other state. Story of our damned lives down here.

 buddy wrote:

 


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Posted: Jun 26, 2020 - 10:33am


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Posted: Apr 29, 2020 - 3:37pm

Dietrich Bonhoeffer on Stupidity
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Posted: Jan 12, 2019 - 6:02am

I miss Evel Kneivel
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Posted: Jan 11, 2019 - 7:42pm

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Proclivities

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Posted: Sep 12, 2018 - 10:49am



 Red_Dragon wrote:
 
That was several years ago actually; partially a product of Republican rule through gerrymandering.  Voting and registration-wise the state is about 50/50 Republican/Democratic yet the NC General Assembly has 10 Republicans and 3 Democrats.

pigtail

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Posted: Sep 12, 2018 - 10:34am

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
LOL...much like our nation's leader.


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Posted: Sep 12, 2018 - 9:54am

North Carolina didn't like science on sea levels … so passed a law against it
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
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Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 10:39am



 cc_rider wrote:
 
I am glad we're having this discussion. It's really important to me.

The bolded bits of your reply are what I'd like to address. You are absolutely right, we should respect each other. We should respect each other's right to protest injustices (peacefully).

Why should anyone respect you (the general you) if you are not going to respect them? That's been my point all along. Respect is a two-way street. People of color are actively disrespected on a daily basis. Maybe not directly by the folks who want him to stand, but in myriad ways subtle and not-so-subtle.

Colin Kaepernick is trying to bring attention to that fact. He feels the obligation to use the public platform to air his grievances. In a measured, quiet way. No yelling, no threats, no rock throwing.

I never agreed with sitting on the bench. But kneeling is a different matter. The action itself, separate from this discussion, indicates respect and deference. The fact Colin and Nate talked, and agreed upon kneeling, indicates there is room for discussion. Give a little, get a little, but above all respect each other. Would that the rest of us were as thoughtful as those men.

c.


 
Absolutely, I think that's more or less the discussion I think is more appropriate then simply saying the anti-protestors are racist.  More to the point, they dont understand the racism that still exists and/or the hangover still being felt from the centuries of prior abuse.  

cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 9:58am

 black321 wrote:


 islander wrote:

Please don't. I'm seriously not attacking you or accusing you of anything here.  You have a different view, but I'm trying to see why. 

So if Kaepernick himself says the protest is about race. But others complain that the protest is disrespectful of the flag and/or the military. How can we question those complaining and call attention to the fact that there were military personnel involved in crafting the protest to be specifically flag respectful?  You say it is tribalism. Okay, but the tribalism mentioned was about respect for traditions and institutions. I believe that they took steps to respect those institutions and traditions, but still tried to get their message out. So what is left in this tribalism?  Is it simply left/right? D/R? City/country?  If that's where we are, without even factoring race, then it's probably time to get the blue tape out and start making a line in the country. Your* side / our side.  Hope it goes better this time.

*-larger your, ect. 
Edit:

trying to expand a bit: To a degree, I'm sure you are correct that racism isn't the root of the anti-protest protest for a lot of people. So for those people, what is the root beyond tribalism? And is there a way to minimize or overcome that tribal reaction?  I do have friends who are in the anti-Nike/Kaepernick camp that I don't see as inherently racist, but they are vehemently anti-Nike now. So how can a conversation be had?   Nike didn't mention race in their ad, just support of Kaepernick's actions.

 
I didnt get the sense of being attacked, but thanks anyway.  
As for the last part, I dont really know, but it's a big issue.   the answer is probably something along the lines of going back and remembering those kindergarten lessons of respecting each other.  It probably has something to do with one of those videos Miami posted somewhere about tribalism.  It's also about recognizing there are differences, or these spaces between all of us, that can never be reconciled or passed through.  Does it make a man less of a friend, brother, uncle, father if he believes all should stand, and i don't? 

As for those non-racists protesting the protestor, is it for them about protecting something sacred.  perhaps their message should be, its ok if you dont respect the flag or country the way i do, but at least respect me and stand.  I dont think that's a good or right answer, but just speculating on what they may think.  

  
I am glad we're having this discussion. It's really important to me.

The bolded bits of your reply are what I'd like to address. You are absolutely right, we should respect each other. We should respect each other's right to protest injustices (peacefully).

Why should anyone respect you (the general you) if you are not going to respect them? That's been my point all along. Respect is a two-way street. People of color are actively disrespected on a daily basis. Maybe not directly by the folks who want him to stand, but in myriad ways subtle and not-so-subtle.

Colin Kaepernick is trying to bring attention to that fact. He feels the obligation to use the public platform to air his grievances. In a measured, quiet way. No yelling, no threats, no rock throwing.

I never agreed with sitting on the bench. But kneeling is a different matter. The action itself, separate from this discussion, indicates respect and deference. The fact Colin and Nate talked, and agreed upon kneeling, indicates there is room for discussion. Give a little, get a little, but above all respect each other. Would that the rest of us were as thoughtful as those men.

c.


black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 9:25am



 islander wrote:

Please don't. I'm seriously not attacking you or accusing you of anything here.  You have a different view, but I'm trying to see why. 

So if Kaepernick himself says the protest is about race. But others complain that the protest is disrespectful of the flag and/or the military. How can we question those complaining and call attention to the fact that there were military personnel involved in crafting the protest to be specifically flag respectful?  You say it is tribalism. Okay, but the tribalism mentioned was about respect for traditions and institutions. I believe that they took steps to respect those institutions and traditions, but still tried to get their message out. So what is left in this tribalism?  Is it simply left/right? D/R? City/country?  If that's where we are, without even factoring race, then it's probably time to get the blue tape out and start making a line in the country. Your* side / our side.  Hope it goes better this time.

*-larger your, ect. 
Edit:

trying to expand a bit: To a degree, I'm sure you are correct that racism isn't the root of the anti-protest protest for a lot of people. So for those people, what is the root beyond tribalism? And is there a way to minimize or overcome that tribal reaction?  I do have friends who are in the anti-Nike/Kaepernick camp that I don't see as inherently racist, but they are vehemently anti-Nike now. So how can a conversation be had?   Nike didn't mention race in their ad, just support of Kaepernick's actions.

 
I didnt get the sense of being attacked, but thanks anyway.  


As for the last part, I dont really know, but it's a big issue.   the answer is probably something along the lines of going back and remembering those kindergarten lessons of respecting each other.  It probably has something to do with one of those videos Miami posted somewhere about tribalism.  It's also about recognizing there are differences, or these spaces between all of us, that can never be reconciled or passed through.  Does it make a man less of a friend, brother, uncle, father if he believes all should stand, and i don't? 

As for those non-racists protesting the protestor, is it for them about protecting something sacred.  perhaps their message should be, its ok if you dont respect the flag or country the way i do, but at least respect me and stand.  I dont think that's a good or right answer, but just speculating on what they may think.  

islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:57am

 cc_rider wrote:

Wacko.

c.

 
I'm not the only one.
cc_rider

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Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:50am

 islander wrote:

Yep.

Note my earlier comment on the contents of the anthem for USA vs. Canada. Theirs is about their land rising up and their duty to it and love for it.  Ours is about a symbol of something that matters only because we can see it amid the chaos of war. I think we would be better off with more patriotism and less symbolism. A stretch goal would include respect for fellow human beings and less war and killing and stuff. 

 
Wacko.

c.
islander

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Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:49am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


 islander wrote:

 flag respect

Why do people say they fought and died for the flag? The flag, or the Republic for Which it Stands? Similarly, Kaepernick's protest isn't with the banner itself, but again, with the Republic for Which it Stands. They fought and died for his right to air his grievances. To stop him protesting means they fought and died in vain. Seems like an 8th-Grade civics lesson to me, but maybe it's still over some heads.

 
Yep.

Note my earlier comment on the contents of the anthem for USA vs. Canada. Theirs is about their land rising up and their duty to it and love for it.  Ours is about a symbol of something that matters only because we can see it amid the chaos of war. I think we would be better off with more patriotism and less symbolism. A stretch goal would include respect for fellow human beings and less war and killing and stuff. 
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:38am



 islander wrote:

 flag respect

Why do people say they fought and died for the flag? The flag, or the Republic for Which it Stands? Similarly, Kaepernick's protest isn't with the banner itself, but again, with the Republic for Which it Stands. They fought and died for his right to air his grievances. To stop him protesting means they fought and died in vain. Seems like an 8th-Grade civics lesson to me, but maybe it's still over some heads.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:23am

 black321 wrote:


 islander wrote:

The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.
 
was referring to race card against those who oppose how he is protesting...but ok.  to be honest i havent been following the whole issue closely, so probably should shut up now.  
 
Please don't. I'm seriously not attacking you or accusing you of anything here.  You have a different view, but I'm trying to see why. 

So if Kaepernick himself says the protest is about race. But others complain that the protest is disrespectful of the flag and/or the military. How can we question those complaining and call attention to the fact that there were military personnel involved in crafting the protest to be specifically flag respectful?  You say it is tribalism. Okay, but the tribalism mentioned was about respect for traditions and institutions. I believe that they took steps to respect those institutions and traditions, but still tried to get their message out. So what is left in this tribalism?  Is it simply left/right? D/R? City/country?  If that's where we are, without even factoring race, then it's probably time to get the blue tape out and start making a line in the country. Your* side / our side.  Hope it goes better this time.

*-larger your, ect. 
Edit:

trying to expand a bit: To a degree, I'm sure you are correct that racism isn't the root of the anti-protest protest for a lot of people. So for those people, what is the root beyond tribalism? And is there a way to minimize or overcome that tribal reaction?  I do have friends who are in the anti-Nike/Kaepernick camp that I don't see as inherently racist, but they are vehemently anti-Nike now. So how can a conversation be had?   Nike didn't mention race in their ad, just support of Kaepernick's actions.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 8:12am



 islander wrote:

The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.
 
was referring to race card against those who oppose how he is protesting...but ok.  to be honest i havent been following the whole issue closely, so probably should shut up now.  

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:55am

 islander wrote:

The whole point of the protest was to bring attention to the problem of black people being treated differently. How do you do that without mentioning race?

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media at the outset of the controversy.

I get that it would make a lot of people more comfortable. But the white, well protected, majority, don't have standing to complain that the protesters are making them uncomfortable. a) that's kind of the point. b) if it makes you* uncomfortable, then maybe it's time to step back and asses why it makes you feel that way.  

He's not saying he was denied a job because of his race, he is saying that the entire league coordinated to deny him a job because of his protest.  It's people like me saying - "okay, you are fine with flag disrespect in other situations, and many in the military have no problem with the protest, indeed they even assisted in honing the message. So what's left to justify the anger over Kaepernick's protest/ and the renewed furor over the Nike ad?  It looks like racism"

It would be nice if we had a white guy from Tennessee protesting his oppression for a comparison data point. But the fact that we don't (because it would be ludicrous) is sort of a data point in itself, right? We don't have a lot of white kids being shot by police following traffic stops for tail lights in upscale white suburbs either.  To try and make this not about race misses some of the problems that have lead to the need for a protest.

*-larger you, not you personally.

 
I should have added that to my screed as well. I'm not pointing fingers at individuals per se. Sure there are plenty of overt bigots, but it's the non-bigots who should try to understand why this is such a big deal.
c.
maryte

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Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 6, 2018 - 7:53am

 islander wrote:

I know a lot of people with that view. I think many of them use that statement to cover their own racist feelings - sort of a "I know this is wrong, but it can't be due to racism, because we solved that problem". 

I'm in Seattle and there are a lot of white people in this lily white region who think there is no racism in this country. Several of them who worked for me were really shocked when I sent them to DC via Atlanta and they really saw some of the racism up close for the first time in their lives. 

 

I'm in Austin and, as cc_rider pointed out previously, in spite of its reputation as a progressive stronghold in Texas (or, perhaps, because of it - progressives are not immune to blind spots), this is one of the most segregated regions in the state (and that's saying a LOT).  One of my colleagues is a well-educated African American woman with a teenage son who just graduated high school. He's a good kid - a really good kid. Always lets his mom know where he's going to be and when he'll be home. When he got a car, she was concerned he'd be out cruising around with his friends all the time.  Nope - drives when he needs/wants to go somewhere, but not for the sake of wasting petrol. A couple of years ago, she was telling me that he kept forgetting the settings on their home security system, and she'd get calls from the monitoring company (and from him, apologizing). She was so worried that the cops would show up at their house and see a Black teenager hanging around and he'd end up shot.  She had the security system disabled.  They're just several miles from me in a part of town that's one of the more integrated.

I was gobsmacked when she expressed these very real fears - even typing this out makes my chest tighten. I simply cannot imagine living with this possibility for your loved ones and yourself every goddamned day...but, as a going concern, people of colour in this country do.
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