Skydog wrote: 
Skydog, I'm not attacking you personally. 

What amazes me, though, is that American voters don't even bother to acquaint themselves with facts anymore. MI went for Trump but he is not going to help workers. He doesn't have any real policy ideas that are going to help them and his cabinet is shaping up to be very pro-1%.

I understand the pain that the Detroit area is going through. A lot of manufacturing-intensive areas have been hit hard but trade agreements like TPP and NAFTA didn't have much to do with that. The US economy is very flexible and mutable. Many of our manufacturing jobs lost to other countries would have disappeared from the US even without trade agreements due to decisions by American companies to outsource parts of their supply chains. Also, manufacturing around the world is changing rapidly. The US economy had a long and significant economic boost due to manufacturing superiority but other countries aren't seeing the same kind of long, significant economic boost when they turn to manufacturing. Even China's economy didn't get the same size of an increase due to growth in manufacturing. A lot of manufacturing is now becoming more and more automated; that's especially true of manufacturing that returns to the US. 

I agree with you: the growing income inequality and the decrease in opportunities for younger Americans is frightening. I think the Dems are far more committed to redressing that imbalance and creating opportunities for younger and poorer people than the GOP is. As for Trump...he's crazy, easily distracted, unprepared and a chronic liar. You would not want someone like Trump raking your leaves.  

 kcar wrote: 
hey man, nothing personal, I'm ignored 99.999% of the time and it's not a problem, I thought we can just pick and choose, I ain't debating just making observations
Obama? he would have been known as the T-PP President if it weren't for Bernie and Trump
I don't think you can call me having misplaced grudges and misinformation when I saw economic genicide on entire citys and towns 
I saw it in my hometown and a lot of other cities in this area, it's caused a lot of heartbreak not to mention crime and other deteriorating social ills.
Me? I'm fine, I did good, I won the birth certificate lottery but I can't stand seeing people in their 20's and 30's put in a desperate situation, so yeah I guess I have a grudge.
 

 Skydog wrote: 
Congratulations on ignoring my points concerning Obama's efforts to help the working class during his administration. It appears that you're basing your opinions of the Democratic party on some misplaced grudges and misinformation. 
NAFTA has had a small effect on the American economy and its impact on US labor markets is not clear. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA's_effect_on_United_States_employment

The economic impacts of NAFTA have been modest. In a 2015 report, the Congressional Research Service summarized multiple studies as follows: "In reality, NAFTA did not cause the huge job losses feared by the critics or the large economic gains predicted by supporters. The net overall effect of NAFTA on the U.S. economy appears to have been relatively modest, primarily because trade with Canada and Mexico accounts for a small percentage of U.S. GDP. However, there were worker and firm adjustment costs as the three countries adjusted to more open trade and investment among their economies."

In a 2003 report, the Congressional Budget Office wrote: "CBO estimates that the increased trade resulting from NAFTA has probably increased U.S. gross domestic product, but by a very small amount—probably a few billion dollars or less, or a few hundredths of a percent." CBO estimated that NAFTA added $10.3 billion to exports and $9.4 billion to imports in 2001. For scale, that was roughly 10% of the trade activity with Mexico in that year.

The Dems then totally abandoned the working class when they saw they could be the party of 'identity politics' and exploit the fears of people who are not male, white, christian and hetero, (and the GOP exploits the fears who are of those types)

So what you're saying is that the Democratic party's support of equal rights for Americans caused the party to stop trying to create jobs for Americans and and working to fight union-busting legislation like state-level "right-to-work" laws. I'm sorry but two are not mutually exclusive. If you seriously think that the party embraced "identity politics" to deliberately move away from helping the working class, prove it. 

As for the PATCO strike—seriously? That was back in 1981. PATCO members were also federal employees and therefore prohibited from going on strike or even bargaining for better wages. 

As for Detroit's 2016 Labor Day parade—so sorry that Bill Clinton's participation in the parade wasn't  good enough for you. 

If you're so worked up about the working class and the need for the federal government to help workers, you are SOL. Take a look at the people that Trump is putting in his cabinet, including this obnoxious dick. Oh, and did you forget about Obama's very successful bailout of the American auto industry during the height of our last financial crisis? That's surprising, you being a Michigander worried about workers and all. 

Trump is going to be a full-fledged disaster for the working class. The GOP has played American workers for decades, distracting them with social wedge issues while it funneled money to its rich supporters. Trump is just going to make matters worse.

 
Trump’s Labor Pick, Andrew Puzder, Is Critic of Minimum Wage Increases
President-elect Donald J. Trump on Thursday named Andrew F. Puzder, chief executive of the company that operates the fast food outlets Hardee’s and Carl’s Jr. and an outspoken critic of the worker protections enacted by the Obama administration, to be secretary of labor.


Also take a look at how the auto industry feels about Trump:
Worried Auto Industry Braces for Change Under Trump 

DETROIT — First the Obama administration bailed out much of the American auto industry, pulling it out of a tailspin. Then it reshaped the business, with regulations and policies intended to increase fuel economy, improve safety and add jobs.

Now, under President-elect Donald J. Trump, the industry is bracing for another wholesale makeover. Perhaps no industry could be affected in more ways by the new administration than the auto business.

....

The changes under the Trump administration could include possible tariffs that will raise prices on imported vehicles and parts, fewer subsidies for electric cars and policies that discourage automakers from moving products from American factories to Mexico.
...

No change would be more consequential to the auto industry than applying steep tariffs on imports from Mexico and elsewhere. Companies could be forced to radically change how and where they get commodity parts, the production of which has been migrating to low-wage nations for decades. Consumers could see a change in the types of cars available.

Despite Mr. Trump’s campaign rhetoric, the American automotive industry and auto jobs have been buoyant since the Obama administration’s bailout.

Since 2010, vehicle production has doubled in the United States, and hundreds of thousands of workers have been hired. Last year, a record 17.4 million cars and trucks were sold in the United States, and analysts forecast strong demand for several years.

 

 kcar wrote: 
Sure they did, it started when they were deadly silent when Pres Regan fired the air traffic controllers (btw they are still sleep deprived and over-worked) and really got a kick in the behind with Pres Clinton's 'fast track' deal for NAFTA
The Dems then totally abandoned the working class when they saw they could be the party of 'identity politics' and exploit the fears of people who are not male, white, christian and hetero, (and the GOP exploits the fears who are of those types)
It probably doesn't matter to anyone living outside of Michigan but Hillary was the first Dem Pres candidate that did not come to Detroit and march in the Labor Day parade but here we saw it as getting the bird flipped at us.
Trump took MI's 16 electorial votes by 10,704 popular votes
 

The childish nonsense continues unabated. So very presidential.

 Skydog wrote: 
I assure you that American foreign policy has looked out for and protected American business interests overseas long before Poppy Bush. However, that thrust is hardly the only one guiding our foreign policy, and to look at our government's international positions and actions primarily through the lens of serving business interests is to seriously distort reality. 

"But they forgot or didn't care about working people in this country hence the Bernie and Trump phenoms" 

The Democratic party did not abandon the working class here. The GOP did and continues to do so.

Obama's government tried very, very hard to get a bigger and better-designed stimulus package through Congress; doing so would have shortened the length and severity of the Great Recession. The votes to have an optimally sized stimulus were not there and the Republicans demanded that part of the stimulus take the form of tax cuts which did not have as large a stimulus effect as other parts of the package.

Obama also tried repeatedly to create jobs-creating programs to help people left behind by the recovery. He went out of his way to emphasize this project during State of The Union addresses. The Republican party never gave his ideas any consideration and never offered any similar programs. Obama also spent a hellacious amount of political capital on the passage of the ACA, which has had significant successes despite failing to sufficiently enforce enrollment requirements and struggling to hold costs down. Affordable health care is a significant economic (and medical) boost to working class people.

So let's stop talking about how the Democrats stiffed the working class. Part of the problem was the nature of The Great Recession. In general, economic recoveries from financial bubbles are weak, prolonged and leave working class people behind. The financial bailouts of investment companies and banks lead to uneven rates of recovery, popular anger, the rise of right-wing politics, and political fracturing.

This New Republic piece builds on the work of three economists who linked financial crises to the rise of right-wing politics in various countries. It also offers pre-election observations about trends in American politics.

The Real Roots of the Rising Right

(emphasis in the excerpt below is mine)
...

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
Obviously Mike Pence is, as it was said he would do, running the transition team.  Pence is a political thug, imo.

 steeler wrote: 
fox/hen house

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
sounds more like a pick for Department of Energy.
Was  the CEO of Exxon not available? 

Donald Trump Picks Scott Pruitt, Ally of Fossil Fuel Industry, to Lead E.P.A.

 Red_Dragon wrote: 
yep, I knew about the Boeing statement and thought, is Trump going to continue being in campaign mode for 4 years?
just like in a campaign when your opponet makes an accusation you respond fast and undercut him with accusations of your own

look out Chuck Scumer, your old friend will be gunning for you and even you Mitch McConnell better watch what you say publicly 

There’s More To This Boeing Deal Than Meets The Eye….Much More

 black321 wrote:
At least it appears GW has a conscious, unlike Cheney. 

 kcar wrote:
At least it appears GW has a conscious, unlike Cheney. 

 Skydog wrote: 




Yep, I see it the same way.

 sirdroseph wrote 
I have to agree somewhat, it does seem like our foreign policy is designed to make the world safe for our companies to do business in and they justify it by creating jobs around the world to create stability therefore creating peace.
It's the "new world order" as first brought to our attention by G.H.W. Bush  and endorsed by both Dems and the GOP
But they forgot or didn't care about working people in this country hence the Bernie and Trump phenoms