Country Up The Bumpkin
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how do you feel right now?
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When I need a Laugh I ...
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Remembering the Good Old Days
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Just for the Haiku of it. . .
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HALF A WORLD
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• • • The Once-a-Day • • •
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260,000 Posts in one thread?
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Australia has Disappeared
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How do I get songs into My Favorites
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Pernicious Pious Proclivities Particularized Prodigiously
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Lyrics that strike a chord today...
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Index »
Radio Paradise/General »
General Discussion »
Trump
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Page: Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 919, 920, 921 ... 1140, 1141, 1142 Next |
miamizsun
Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP) Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 14, 2017 - 7:24am |
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Red_Dragon wrote: It's not the lying. It's the arrogant, blatant, careless frequency of it. Every single time they open their mouths they say something demonstrably false. The lie all. the. time. And they don't care, because they know the fools who put them in power will believe them. We are lost.
of course i'm being a bit sarcastic trump, clinton, obama, bush, etc. aren't the root cause of our woes they are symptoms unfortunately a lot voters are not rational when it comes to social organization and we all pay the price what are the questions that we should be asking? what are the desired results? and how do we get there? practically everyone seems to think forced moralization is the cure to what ails us? we certainly keeping voting for more violence regards
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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 14, 2017 - 7:11am |
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Red_Dragon wrote: It's not the lying. It's the arrogant, blatant, careless frequency of it. Every single time they open their mouths they say something demonstrably false. The lie all. the. time. And they don't care, because they know the fools who put them in power will believe them. We are lost.
And yet, we are found...
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 14, 2017 - 6:09am |
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miamizsun wrote: welcome to the machine
the scales fell from my eyes in the early eighties
It's not the lying. It's the arrogant, blatant, careless frequency of it. Every single time they open their mouths they say something demonstrably false. The lie all. the. time. And they don't care, because they know the fools who put them in power will believe them. We are lost.
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miamizsun
Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP) Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 14, 2017 - 5:12am |
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Red_Dragon wrote: welcome to the machine the scales fell from my eyes in the early eighties
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 14, 2017 - 4:51am |
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 13, 2017 - 7:40pm |
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islander
Location: West coast somewhere Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 13, 2017 - 6:04pm |
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Red_Dragon wrote: He's a tool, but she was pretty out of line. If you are going to go after someone like that (public space, but he's doing his own business), it's pretty disingenuous when you get the reaction you were pushing for. This is the situation that they are looking for. The whole country is melting down into an us/them dichotomy where there is no space to even look for compromise or god(or FSM) forbid - common ground.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 13, 2017 - 4:28pm |
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 13, 2017 - 4:20pm |
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haresfur
Location: The Golden Triangle Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 13, 2017 - 12:00am |
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kcar wrote:I haven't followed this issue or RP debate at all, but I'm struck by this excerpt from link that Lazy8 provided: Bharara is a classic federal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, always looking to make headlines as much as meaningful collars. He earned the enmity of Reason readers in 2015 when his office subpoenaed information about the records of six people who left hyperbolic comments at the website about the federal judge who oversaw the controversial conviction of Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht. Shortly after the subpoena was issued, the government issued a gag order prohibiting Reason not only from discussing the matter but even acknowledging the existence of the subpoena or the gag order itself. As a wide variety of media outlets have noted, such actions on the part of the government are not only fundamentally misguided and misdirected, they have a tangible chilling effect on free expression by commenters and publications alike.... The subpoena also covered...harmless comments as: "I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman," and "I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well.
I don't know if an investigation into Website commenters falls within the cautionary notion of a "chilling effect on the press" but it's pretty damned close. That phrase normally is invoked to protect the press's confidential relationship with sources against investigations by law enforcement, but it might be extended to try to protect the identities of people responding to news article. If a news organization has to give up the identity of its readers/commenters, it's a slippery slope to having give up your sources.
The gag order about the subpoena and the gag order itself is incredibly obnoxious and oppressive. So sorry, but an investigation into the identity of Web commenters is newsworthy and should be reported by Reason. What did Bharara hope to gain by this silencing order? And the last sentence if accurate, shows the overreach of the subpoena and points up Lazy8's notion of credible threat. FWIW:
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/03/12/us/ap-us-federal-prosecutors-resignations.html
The request for resignations from the 46 prosecutors who were holdovers from the Obama administration wasn't shocking. It's fairly customary for the 93 U.S. attorneys to leave their posts once a new president is in office, and many had already left or were making plans for their departures.
But the abrupt nature of the dismissals — done with little explanation and not always with the customary thanks for years of service — stunned and angered some of those left behind in offices around the country.
One NYT article I recently read noted that Bill Clinton dismissed all 93 US attorneys when he took office in January 1993.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I just find it an interesting area of conflict between speech and protecting lives & the legal system. The statement about him wanting to make headlines rather than legal collars is not at all substantiated and I'm not sure seeking headlines is always a bad thing. Say if it is a driver to concentrate on crooked politicians, for instance. I don't know about the gag order, isn't your Grand Jury process always done in secret? Is the 'gag' order routine for investigation - like maybe when the police don't want want a criminal to be tipped off and take a runner or destroy evidence. Doesn't seem like good practice to me to apply it to websites or email providers and including non-threatening comments in the request a disservice by tipping over into a fishing expedition rather than focusing on the actual (even if not realistic) threats. I bet there is some interesting legal precedence in mob action/vigilante justice. I also don't know the reason why the subpoena wasn't restricted to just a few people but I expect that with or without good procedural reasons they just asked for the whole thread. Just because someone is commenting on a news site, doesn't give them license to threaten a judge. Surely that has a chilling effect on the whole legal system. It isn't a freedom of the press issue. Journalists aren't allowed to say they want to put a judge through a wood chipper and neither are their readers.
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kcar
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 10:08pm |
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haresfur wrote:You seem to be assuming that the threats are innocent venting and not to be taken seriously. That may or may not be the case, I suppose it is for the courts to decide . The subpoena, in itself, is actually about being able to investigate whether there is someone worth prosecuting. That isn't to say that the government can't use those things as intimidation tactics. But the threats are illegal just as it is illegal to say you have a bomb when going through security at the airport - even if it was meant as a joke. You and the articles you cite don't show any indication that this was partisan or even an abuse of power. I think it is a difficult one when society tries to balance free speech with threatening or inciting violence. A year ago, I would have come down much stronger on the side of letting people say almost anything. But now I see so much more hate speech turning into hate actions that I can see dialing down the rhetoric as being necessary. Is the line between the person who said the judge should be shot and the one that said the judge would be shot? If you are making threats, well, it has consequences. ETA: I actually think the best thing would have been to file for the subpoena and encourage the website to report on that. Just a reminder to the readers not to get out of hand. I haven't followed this issue or RP debate at all, but I'm struck by this excerpt from link that Lazy8 provided: Bharara is a classic federal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, always looking to make headlines as much as meaningful collars. He earned the enmity of Reason readers in 2015 when his office subpoenaed information about the records of six people who left hyperbolic comments at the website about the federal judge who oversaw the controversial conviction of Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht. Shortly after the subpoena was issued, the government issued a gag order prohibiting Reason not only from discussing the matter but even acknowledging the existence of the subpoena or the gag order itself. As a wide variety of media outlets have noted, such actions on the part of the government are not only fundamentally misguided and misdirected, they have a tangible chilling effect on free expression by commenters and publications alike.... The subpoena also covered...harmless comments as: "I hope there is a special place in hell reserved for that horrible woman," and "I'd prefer a hellish place on Earth be reserved for her as well.
I don't know if an investigation into Website commenters falls within the cautionary notion of a "chilling effect on the press" but it's pretty damned close. That phrase normally is invoked to protect the press's confidential relationship with sources against investigations by law enforcement, but it might be extended to try to protect the identities of people responding to news article. If a news organization has to give up the identity of its readers/commenters, it's a slippery slope to having give up your sources.
The gag order about the subpoena and the gag order itself is incredibly obnoxious and oppressive. So sorry, but an investigation into the identity of Web commenters is newsworthy and should be reported by Reason. What did Bharara hope to gain by this silencing order? And the last sentence if accurate, shows the overreach of the subpoena and points up Lazy8's notion of credible threat. FWIW:
https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/03/12/us/ap-us-federal-prosecutors-resignations.html
The request for resignations from the 46 prosecutors who were holdovers from the Obama administration wasn't shocking. It's fairly customary for the 93 U.S. attorneys to leave their posts once a new president is in office, and many had already left or were making plans for their departures.
But the abrupt nature of the dismissals — done with little explanation and not always with the customary thanks for years of service — stunned and angered some of those left behind in offices around the country.
One NYT article I recently read noted that Bill Clinton dismissed all 93 US attorneys when he took office in January 1993.
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haresfur
Location: The Golden Triangle Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 8:16pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: aflanigan wrote:If this guy upsets libertarians like you, conservatives like kurtster, and progressives like Andrew Cuomo, I'd say he's doing things right. Sounds like a keeper to me. Unless we're supposed to let politics trump the desire for less corruption in government. I'm sorry, what part of shaking down a magazine for the identities of people making comments on its website and threatening it with prosecution if it reported on the subpoena sounds like a good idea? Ponder that action for a moment. Ponder the things said in this forum. Ponder what a gigantic abuse of power that is. Defend it, if you can, but ask yourself this question: would you want someone appointed by Donald Trump to exercise that power? Say, here? I'm not just saying he abused the power of his office, I'm saying his office has too much power to abuse. But he abused that power shamelessly, vindictively, and selectively—in a partisan manner. That alone should have been grounds for dismissal. You seem to be assuming that the threats are innocent venting and not to be taken seriously. That may or may not be the case, I suppose it is for the courts to decide . The subpoena, in itself, is actually about being able to investigate whether there is someone worth prosecuting. That isn't to say that the government can't use those things as intimidation tactics. But the threats are illegal just as it is illegal to say you have a bomb when going through security at the airport - even if it was meant as a joke. You and the articles you cite don't show any indication that this was partisan or even an abuse of power. I think it is a difficult one when society tries to balance free speech with threatening or inciting violence. A year ago, I would have come down much stronger on the side of letting people say almost anything. But now I see so much more hate speech turning into hate actions that I can see dialing down the rhetoric as being necessary. Is the line between the person who said the judge should be shot and the one that said the judge would be shot? If you are making threats, well, it has consequences. ETA: I actually think the best thing would have been to file for the subpoena and encourage the website to report on that. Just a reminder to the readers not to get out of hand.
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Lazy8
Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 11:59am |
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aflanigan wrote:Here, go look up credible threat. Then compare that to the statements made in the comments in question. You don't seem to offer any actual evidence of "shamelessness", "vindictiveness", or "selectiveness" of Bharara's actions beyond his having gone after a pet publication of libertarians in addition to the no doubt numerous other investigations that have been conducted. Is Reason mag supposed to receive some sort of exemption based on ideological purity?
You're certainly entitled to believe that the statute regarding penalizing threats against federal officials is a statist overreach, but Bharara doesn't write the statutes, he's just charged with enforcing them vigorously. Which he seems to have done in a rather bipartisan manner. I didn't put all that evidence in my post, it's in the article I linked to. Of course that assumes people will click the link, and read it, and follow up with further links in the articles if they want more detail, but I find that a more concise way of expressing myself than burying the reader with paragraph after paragraph of cut & paste. Which won't get read either. He has prosecuted more Democrats than Republicans, but there are a hell of a lot more Democrats than Republicans in New York to prosecute.
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 11:17am |
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Lazy8 wrote: aflanigan wrote:If this guy upsets libertarians like you, conservatives like kurtster, and progressives like Andrew Cuomo, I'd say he's doing things right. Sounds like a keeper to me. Unless we're supposed to let politics trump the desire for less corruption in government. I'm sorry, what part of shaking down a magazine for the identities of people making comments on its website and threatening it with prosecution if it reported on the subpoena sounds like a good idea? Ponder that action for a moment. Ponder the things said in this forum. Ponder what a gigantic abuse of power that is. Defend it, if you can, but ask yourself this question: would you want someone appointed by Donald Trump to exercise that power? Say, here? I'm not just saying he abused the power of his office, I'm saying his office has too much power to abuse. But he abused that power shamelessly, vindictively, and selectively—in a partisan manner. That alone should have been grounds for dismissal. You really enjoy putting in those creative pejoratives, like "shakedown" for a lawful subpoena in response to statutorily illegal threats against a federal judge. You don't seem to offer any actual evidence of "shamelessness", "vindictiveness", or "selectiveness" of Bharara's actions beyond his having gone after a pet publication of libertarians in addition to the no doubt numerous other investigations that have been conducted. Is Reason mag supposed to receive some sort of exemption based on ideological purity? You're certainly entitled to believe that the statute regarding penalizing threats against federal officials is a statist overreach, but Bharara doesn't write the statutes, he's just charged with enforcing them vigorously. Which he seems to have done in a rather bipartisan manner.
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Lazy8
Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 10:56am |
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aflanigan wrote:If this guy upsets libertarians like you, conservatives like kurtster, and progressives like Andrew Cuomo, I'd say he's doing things right. Sounds like a keeper to me. Unless we're supposed to let politics trump the desire for less corruption in government. I'm sorry, what part of shaking down a magazine for the identities of people making comments on its website and threatening it with prosecution if it reported on the subpoena sounds like a good idea? Ponder that action for a moment. Ponder the things said in this forum. Ponder what a gigantic abuse of power that is. Defend it, if you can, but ask yourself this question: would you want someone appointed by Donald Trump to exercise that power? Say, here? I'm not just saying he abused the power of his office, I'm saying his office has too much power to abuse. But he abused that power shamelessly, vindictively, and selectively—in a partisan manner. That alone should have been grounds for dismissal.
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 10:22am |
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Lazy8 wrote: If this guy upsets libertarians like you, conservatives like kurtster, and progressives like Andrew Cuomo, I'd say he's doing things right. Sounds like a keeper to me. Unless we're supposed to let politics trump the desire for less corruption in government.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Mar 12, 2017 - 6:10am |
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Lazy8
Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:
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kurtster
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 11, 2017 - 10:15pm |
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haresfur wrote: Yeah, really nothing to see. Normal. that said ... I have no use for him. Wasn't tough enough on certain types. Let some big fish keep swimming. Bharara developed a reputation for being tough on insider trading, although he was criticized for the lack of prosecutions that followed the financial crisis.
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haresfur
Location: The Golden Triangle Gender:
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Posted:
Mar 11, 2017 - 9:55pm |
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