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aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 10:39am

 kurtster wrote:

The travel ban, which y'all base your early claims of Trump's lack of a grasp on what is Constitutional and what isn't, is at the SCOTUS waiting for a decision.  I'm pretty sure he will be upheld when its over.  Then what will you say ?

 

The Muslim ban is just one of several pieces of evidence demonstrating inability to govern available from Trump's short, chaotic, ineffectual tenure as POTUS.

The issue is effective leadership. The Muslim travel ban fiasco exposed for all the world to see that he has none. The supposed need for the ban was that bad hombres were streaming into the US, so executive action was required to get an immediate, temporary ban into effect. They failed to draft one capable of passing the sniff test, something other presidents have done when they have actual evidence to back up their claims of urgent need (like Obama's 2011 immigration restrictions based on a specific threat)  and have declined to ask the Supreme Court for a quick ruling (a fact that the Supreme Court noted back in June). It's lack of constitutionality is moot at this point. He claimed something needed to be done right away to keep out terrorists, and proceeded to fail to accomplish any prompt action.
 
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 9:45am

 kurtster wrote:

The travel ban, which y'all base your early claims of Trump's lack of a grasp on what is Constitutional and what isn't, is at the SCOTUS waiting for a decision.  I'm pretty sure he will be upheld when its over.  Then what will you say ?

 
I think Aflanigan was referring to the fact that Trump unveiled the "Muslim ban" as one of the first things he did, taking even those within his administration by surprise, including members of the Department of Justice.  The version that is before the Supreme Court is a revised version — they gave up on the first one that was rushed out   
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 9:39am

 kurtster wrote:

The travel ban, which y'all base your early claims of Trump's lack of a grasp on what is Constitutional and what isn't, is at the SCOTUS waiting for a decision.  I'm pretty sure he will be upheld when its over.  Then what will you say ?

 
There's no doubt that a President has the authority to enact a travel ban, and unless the court can establish that he enacted it purely based on religion, they probably could not deem it unconstitutional.  It's also within his authority to pardon a racist, convicted criminal before sentencing; what do people say about that?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 9:29am

 aflanigan wrote:


c and make empty gestures such as the DOA muslim ban appears to be the basis of people claiming that "he gets me".
If he really cared about immigration and security he would abandon the empty gestures and use the power of the presidency to accomplish change. He's either too impotent/incompetent to do so, and/or he doesn't really care about the issue. I'd say it's a little of both.

 
The travel ban, which y'all base your early claims of Trump's lack of a grasp on what is Constitutional and what isn't, is at the SCOTUS waiting for a decision.  I'm pretty sure he will be upheld when its over.  Then what will you say ?
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 7:31am

 aflanigan wrote:

If he really cared about immigration and security he would abandon the empty gestures and use the power of the presidency to accomplish change. He's either too impotent/incompetent to do so, and/or he doesn't really care about the issue. I'd say it's a little of both.

 

Mark this down, I actually agree with aflanigan on something. lol


aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 7:21am

 kurtster wrote:
 He appears to give a damn about what's important to me

 
The ability to feign empathy is a key talent of the huckster. Trump is not very good at it. 

I suspect political tribalism is at the bottom of much of Trump's remaining support. Rationalism gets pushed aside so long as the perception that "we're sticking it to 'em good!" with respect to the scapegoats/perceived antagonists/political enemies can be sustained.

Trump remains fairly good at rousing/pushing the buttons of people so inclined to lash out. This ability to spew rhetoric and make empty gestures such as the DOA muslim ban appears to be the basis of people claiming that "he gets me". If he really cared about immigration and security he would abandon the empty gestures and use the power of the presidency to accomplish change. He's either too impotent/incompetent to do so, and/or he doesn't really care about the issue. I'd say it's a little of both.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 6, 2017 - 6:01am

 Dragonfly_Launch wrote:

Is this forum here just so you guys can debate this dumbass? Anyone who still supports Trump after this first 8 months has some pathology of their own. It is not a debate about policy. It is a debate about human decency. These selected DACA immigrants were brought in as children. They have made a place for themselves. Sessions is the front man for the pronouncement. And I am pretty sure Sessions has a white pointy hat with the eyeholes cut out in one of his cedar chests somewhere in da house. The American people have no trouble allowing rules to be formed for these DACA humans to be allowed into American society. Sessions and Trump clearly do not give a damn what the people want. And no one trusts this administration to deal with North Korea while they play games with American citizens and their rights. Kim throws big ass rocks at Japan. And will soon test us all by throwing a bigger rock that actually kills people into the midst of South Korea. "Whatchoo bitches gonna do?" He just keeps saying it. "Whatchoo bitches gonna do?" Walls on the Rio Grande will not be a priority soon. 

 
Yeah, right.  He appears to give a damn about what's important to me and a very large number of people.  Its just not your people.

We have had kick the can for the past 3 administrations.  The national policy on everything has been appeasement, both foreignly and domestically.  We've kicked the can on everything.  And taxed everything to death.  

One reason I voted for Trump was to have the best person available to be the one to pick up the cans.  No one has stepped up and clearly there are no traditional politicians able to do so or it would have been done already.  I like what Trump has done on the military defensive side of things so far.  

We can no longer appease NOKO.  They now have a nuke that can deliver one hell of an EMP and reach the US Mainland.  That is the worst possible case scenario.  An EMP weapon is the greatest national security threat we face.  It is not climate change as Obama, et al have tried to convince everyone.  Climate change has been the scare tactic used to keep everyone from paying attention to the important stuff.  I've been talking about it for at least 5 years since I became aware of it.  But I've been dismissed here as a fear monger or conspiracy theorist every time I mention it.  Back then the estimated cost of hardening our electricity grid was about $2 billion dollars.  Its now about $10 b.

All chubby cheeks has to do is get the thing to go off 200 miles above us and he can knock out half the country's electricity and kill electronic devices permanently that are within the pulse.  That would send the USA into the stoneage, killing 10's of millions in the resulting social chaos and disorder that would last for years.  He would get us to kill ourselves.  If its him or us, its him.  Sorry about their neighborhood, but that's how I feel about it.

All roads to NOKO go through China.  Either they take him out or we do.  I ain't holding my breath for China to do anything here.

Like Hillary would be a better option right now ?  Given the circumstances, I feel a whole lot better with Trump in charge than if she would be.  We would be right where we are right now regardless of who won.  Chubby Cheeks is pointing a gun at our heads and making us defend ourselves.  


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 9:51pm

 steeler wrote:

If it was illegal for Obama to establish this program by executive order, then it is illegal for Trump to "extend" the program to allow time for Congress to act. 

 

I really haven't  followed this issue at all, but what galls me is that the people who want DACA struck down are targeting kids and young adults who have been in this country for 10+ years. 


WHAT THE F*CK. 
I submit excerpts from 2 admittedly left-leaning articles for y'all's interest. No wonder Congress didn't want to touch this issue: it's a no-win non-starter. 


The Legal Case for DACA


Not a single one of the current DACA recipients has a criminal record, which is a condition of the policy, and research has consistently shown that DACA recipients have been a boon to the American economy. (Last month, the Center for American Progress published the largest study to date on DACA recipients, finding that 97 percent of the respondents were either currently working or enrolled in school.)


Mother Jones: In his announcement today, Sessions said the DACA policy was implemented “unilaterally to great controversy and legal concern.” What are those legal concerns?

Stephen Yale-Loehr (an immigration law attorney and law professor at Cornell University who co-authored Immigration Law and Procedure, a 21-volume treatise on U.S. immigration law): Some felt that President Obama overreached and took action that really was intended for Congress to take instead. Although prior presidents had issued prosecutorial discretion in the past as to deciding who can stay in the United States, they had never done it on such a large scale, particularly combined with issuing them work permits and the ability to get social security cards. Some felt he was basically usurping Congress’s legislative function to decide who can stay in the United States.

MJ: Do you agree with that?

SYL: I disagree with that. I and 100 other law professors signed a letter in mid-August saying that what President Obama did was lawful and that it was the proper exercise of prosecutorial discretion. Nobody has the money or number of officers to be able to round up and deport 11 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States, so every president has to prioritize which ones they want to target. President Obama used that same prosecutorial discretion that other presidents had used before him to decide that the people we call Dreamers, as long as they have not committed any crimes, were really low-priority for deportation, and therefore he decided to defer their deportation for two years and along with that give them the opportunity to get work permits. It was on a larger scale numerically than prior presidents had exercised, but it was similar.




Four serious lies Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump told you about DACA



...But many of the reasons and explanations the two used are misleading and inaccurate, Anil Kalhan, a law professor at Drexel University, told Quartz. Kalhan pointed out a few important lies:

1. DACA provided legal immigration status to illegal aliens

...

This is not true. The program, Kalhan says, “doesn’t grant the equivalent of legal status.” DACA does not, as a green card would, provide permanent security for those who hold it, but simply makes their deportation a non-priority for two years. Being a DACA beneficiary also doesn’t automatically translate into getting a work permit; that has to be obtained through a separate application, as does a permit to travel abroad. (Green card holders can do both without applying for permission.)

Most importantly, unlike those granted by a green card, DACA benefits aren’t permanent, and can be rescinded at any moment.


2. DACA is unconstitutional

Sessions claims that DACA was an “unconstitutional exercise of authority.” That isn’t true; this is his opinion. The issue of constitutionality, Kalhan says, “has never been resolved.”



3. DACA is a amnesty program

DACA is a “unilateral executive amnesty,” Sessions said. This is false. An amnesty is intended as an official blanket pardon of all offenders who receive it. DACA, however, does not cover everyone; Kalhan points out that it only applies to eligible immigrants who are then required to apply and have their individual case evaluated. It’s also only temporary, and doesn’t come cost-free: Recipients have to pay $495 when they apply for their permit, and then again every two years at the time of renewal, whether or not a renewed permit is granted.

4. DACA led to a surge of unaccompanied minors illegally entering the US

DACA, according to Sessions, “contributed to a surge of unaccompanied minors on the southern border that yielded terrible humanitarian consequences.” This is a lie. DACA only applies to illegal immigrants who had arrived in the US prior to June 15, 2007 and have resided in the country for at least five continuous years since—so, Kalhan notes, it would make no sense for minors to cross the border seeking to gain status under a policy that doesn’t cover them.






steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 7:41pm

 kurtster wrote:
After 8 years of Obama and the crap that came with it, I can't say that it bothers me much that Trump is pissing off people.

Its just the other side's turn to be pissed off.

DACA is just another mess made by Obama where he told Congress to stuff it despite the fact that Congress had dealt with it repeatedly and said no, that was stinking up the joint and was headed for the courts where it certainly would be overturned.

Now Trump has simply turned it back over to Congress to act (again), as promised.

.
And to those who called the wall either useless or irrelevant ... so we tear down what we now have, because we shouldn't have it, don't need it, right ???
 
If it was illegal for Obama to establish this program by executive order, then it is illegal for Trump to "extend" the program to allow time for Congress to act. 


Dragonfly_Launch

Dragonfly_Launch Avatar

Location: Conway, Ar
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 6:52pm

 kurtster wrote:
After 8 years of Obama and the crap that came with it, I can't say that it bothers me much that Trump is pissing off people.

Its just the other side's turn to be pissed off.

DACA is just another mess made by Obama where he told Congress to stuff it despite the fact that Congress had dealt with it repeatedly and said no, that was stinking up the joint and was headed for the courts where it certainly would be overturned.

Now Trump has simply turned it back over to Congress to act (again), as promised.

.
And to those who called the wall either useless or irrelevant ... so we tear down what we now have, because we shouldn't have it, don't need it, right ???
 
Is this forum here just so you guys can debate this dumbass? Anyone who still supports Trump after this first 8 months has some pathology of their own. It is not a debate about policy. It is a debate about human decency. These selected DACA immigrants were brought in as children. They have made a place for themselves. Sessions is the front man for the pronouncement. And I am pretty sure Sessions has a white pointy hat with the eyeholes cut out in one of his cedar chests somewhere in da house. The American people have no trouble allowing rules to be formed for these DACA humans to be allowed into American society. Sessions and Trump clearly do not give a damn what the people want. And no one trusts this administration to deal with North Korea while they play games with American citizens and their rights. Kim throws big ass rocks at Japan. And will soon test us all by throwing a bigger rock that actually kills people into the midst of South Korea. "Whatchoo bitches gonna do?" He just keeps saying it. "Whatchoo bitches gonna do?" Walls on the Rio Grande will not be a priority soon. 
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 5:39pm

 kurtster wrote:
After 8 years of Obama and the crap that came with it, I can't say that it bothers me much that Trump is pissing off people.

Its just the other side's turn to be pissed off.

DACA is just another mess made by Obama where he told Congress to stuff it despite the fact that Congress had dealt with it repeatedly and said no, that was stinking up the joint and was headed for the courts where it certainly would be overturned.

Now Trump has simply turned it back over to Congress to act (again), as promised.

.
And to those who called the wall either useless or irrelevant ... so we tear down what we now have, because we shouldn't have it, don't need it, right ???
 
Dumb Don couldn't even carry Obama's jockstrap. Obama must be chuckling to himself while he watches Dumb Don sink like a rock.


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 4:12pm

 VV wrote:

Dubya is Einstein compared to Trump.

 


A frightening thought: even with that quantum leap in intelligence, George is still pretty damned dumb compared to the rest of humanity. 

More frightening: consider that some President after Trump may make Douchebag Don look like a genius. Sometimes it's best not to ask, "How low can we go?"
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:58pm

After 8 years of Obama and the crap that came with it, I can't say that it bothers me much that Trump is pissing off people.

Its just the other side's turn to be pissed off.

DACA is just another mess made by Obama where he told Congress to stuff it despite the fact that Congress had dealt with it repeatedly and said no, that was stinking up the joint and was headed for the courts where it certainly would be overturned.

Now Trump has simply turned it back over to Congress to act (again), as promised.

.
And to those who called the wall either useless or irrelevant ... so we tear down what we now have, because we shouldn't have it, don't need it, right ???

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:39pm

 kcar wrote:

When Dubya was President, I'd regularly joke with my parents, "Where's Dan Quayle when you need him!?!?" Now, even George might be a welcome relief...
 
Dubya is Einstein compared to Trump.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:33pm

 islander wrote:
Fires, Russians, Floods.... remember when all of this was satire?


 


When Dubya was President, I'd regularly joke with my parents, "Where's Dan Quayle when you need him!?!?" Now, even George might be a welcome relief...

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:26pm

I'm tired of this imposter perverting the office of the President, perverting American values and flat out perverting America in his wake. The ironic thing is that (even though he is supposed to be a developer) he seems to be good at only destroying things... and doesn't create or improve a damn thing.
 
I'm done already. I wish I could say he gave it a good try but he didn't even do that. 


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 3:10pm

Fires, Russians, Floods.... remember when all of this was satire?

pigtail

pigtail Avatar

Location: Southern California
Gender: Female


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 9:39am

 islander wrote:

What exactly is it that you think the wall will get you?  Fewer undocumented immigrant? Those aren't coming over the 'wall', they are mostly overstaying legitimately issued Visas. So if you really want fewer immigrants, let's work on the immigration system overall, which DACA is a part of.  And it was only issued inappropriately by Obama because he had no hope of cooperation from an intransigent republican opposition. What is it about DACA that bothers you so? The opportunity provided to "others"?, the recognition that many of them have personally done no wrong and are contributing to our country?

If it's just symbolism you are after, hang on for your wall. It won't do a lot of good and will divert resources from other far more worthy causes. Seems like a fine symbol for you and the administration you still cling to. 

 
Right on {#High-five}
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Sep 5, 2017 - 8:22am

 kurtster wrote:

 about that obstruction of justice thingy ... how about the triad of Comey, Lynch and Clinton ...

but wait ... there's more !

It Wasn’t Comey’s Decision to Exonerate Hillary – It Was Obama’s

and more material on this  ...  can we say perjury ???

comey intended to exonerate hillary



 
You seem eager to be a fake news aggregator, but unfortunately there are several people/websites in line ahead of you.

Keep your day job. 
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Sep 3, 2017 - 10:50pm

 Steely_D wrote:

It's like saying: let's find a compromise between poison and strawberries. What's the point of that?

 

Surrender, Kurt. Resistance is futile. 

gif of spiraling bunch of strawberries


Really? Trump's gonna deport people who were children when their parents brought them into the country illegally? Even though they grew up here? 

This isn't about jobs or national security. It's just good ol' FUD laced with some poisonous hate.

And no, trying to link The Wall with the DACA is not a good idea. Commonsense immigration reform, sure. But we've talked about the Wall to death here and on other threads. If you've forgotten the points made against The Wall, kurtster, scroll back. I provided many links on this issue. I'm not going to re-hash and re-research this issue. 

If you or anyone else here can explain why Trump thinks it's a good idea to threaten South Korea with the dissolution of our free trade agreement with the country while he's badgering it to stand up to North Korea's ballistic missile program, clue us in. 
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