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ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 7:10am

 kurtster wrote:
 
Gutterball.  Interesting.  I can work with that.  But that also means we get 10 frames. ....

.....  He picked up the spare in the first frame with that.  

 
No, I said he is the gutterball. He couldn't move to the center if he wanted to.
 
 
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 6:20am

 miamizsun wrote:

we all get caught up

left unchecked, the political partisan conditioning negatively affects the ability for most people to make good decisions

we don't have to look very far (see your example) to expose the absurdity and hypocrisy of the vast majority of political positions

left or right it doesn't matter most folks are blatantly using two sets of criteria when contrasting politicians

just imagine if we did this (shifting definitions and/or criteria) in any other area of our lives, especially science

if we had japanese science versus german science, etc.

arguing over whose definition of liters and meters to use

biology and physics would be a disaster 

but we are clearly doing this in social (or human action) science

is it any wonder why we have such a mess

force, violence and coercion would ruin any other aspect of our scientific lives

but we're supposed to believe (or we act like) it is the preferred methodology in human action

no, just no

 

 
or even good conversation as evidenced by {#Arrowd}.  Trump is a disaster and yet the world goes on more or less as it had.  Obama kept the status quo, provided stability by more or less kicking can down the road...was his inability to fix anything not a disaster?  Clinton, who knows what disasters she might have had hidden up her sleeve.  I see the biggest difference between trump and clinton, or rubio, or whomever is that his warts aren't hidden.  All the name calling - racist, misogynist...right or wrong, it's  not as if we never had one of these types hold office before.  His faults are right there out in the open....which will prove to be his biggest weakness or strength? 
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 6:10am

 miamizsun wrote:

we all get caught up

left unchecked, the political partisan conditioning negatively affects the ability for most people to make good decisions

we don't have to look very far (see your example) to expose the absurdity and hypocrisy of the vast majority of political positions

left or right it doesn't matter most folks are blatantly using two sets of criteria when contrasting politicians

just imagine if we did this (shifting definitions and/or criteria) in any other area of our lives, especially science

if we had japanese science versus german science, etc.

arguing over whose definition of liters and meters to use

biology and physics would be a disaster 

but we are clearly doing this in social (or human action) science

is it any wonder why we have such a mess

force, violence and coercion would ruin any other aspect of our scientific lives

but we're supposed to believe (or we act like) it is the preferred methodology in human action

no, just no

 

 
the erosion of shared truths is definitely a big part of all this schlamazzle. When, as John Oliver pointed out on HBO the other night, you get your news from only those sources that substantiate your own world view then it is a very short step to phrases like lying media, fake news and alternate facts.  Then you may as well throw all discussion out the window as there is no shared ground on which to discuss things. And I think it is fair to say that we all guilty of this to a greater or lesser extent. 
I guess it had to happen with the ubiquity of the internet and the wealth of sources out there. We saw it here at RP in the first years too, where people thought the anonymity of the internet gave them freedom to invent entirely fictitious personas or even rob someone else's real persona.. Sure you can do this, if you want to live in a fiction. But the real world is not, to the best of my sources, merely a fiction. There are hard facts out there and it would be a sign of being big and grown up if we all started taking accountability for our actions and admitting a few hard truths, which also involves a good bit of self-criticism, without getting all self-indulgent about it. 


miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 15, 2017 - 5:57am

 black321 wrote:
to be clear, i wasn't directing any of my comments to anyone specific.  just trying to point out the whole self fulfilling prophecy thing...
 
we all get caught up

left unchecked, the political partisan conditioning negatively affects the ability for most people to make good decisions

we don't have to look very far (see your example) to expose the absurdity and hypocrisy of the vast majority of political positions

left or right it doesn't matter most folks are blatantly using two sets of criteria when contrasting politicians

just imagine if we did this (shifting definitions and/or criteria) in any other area of our lives, especially science

if we had japanese science versus german science, etc.

arguing over whose definition of liters and meters to use

biology and physics would be a disaster 

but we are clearly doing this in social (or human action) science

is it any wonder why we have such a mess

force, violence and coercion would ruin any other aspect of our scientific lives

but we're supposed to believe (or we act like) it is the preferred methodology in human action

no, just no

 
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 10:27pm

 kurtster wrote:
 
Gutterball.  Interesting.  I can work with that.  But that also means we get 10 frames.  We are in the second frame.  I'm giving him another month or so.  The one encouraging thing that Trump has demonstrated during the campaign was how he solved problems and made corrections, that worked.  I'll be judging him on how he fixes things and gets past this stuff.

Once he has got his Cabinet fully done, after a month with a full cabinet should be reasonable time to start forming a working opinion on how things will go.  Even if things weren't fucking up, he's still dancing on one foot with one hand tied behind his back with half a functional Cabinet.

Right now, he's got everyone and I mean everyone working against him.  Ain't no one helping him get anything done.  The bureaucracy is working directly against him and leaking like a sieve.  And in a criminal way.  The Bureaucracy is the biggest and most dangerous part of "The Establishment".  It is fighting for its life against the threat it perceives Trump to be to their status quo.  The Civil Service is going to be looked at real hard and that scares the shit of them.

Yeah, he canned Flynn.  That counts for a lot.  He picked up the spare in the first frame with that.  He didn't get moved to another department like what happened in the Obama administration.  Yer fired just happened.  In the 8 years of Obama, just how many people got fired ?  I'm having a hard time of thinking of any.  OTOH, he did have a scandal free administration.  He even said so.

 

"And the fate of Obamacare truly is in Congress' hands.  A really big mess.  The wisest thing Trump might do is nothing and let it fully collapse like it will certainly do.  That way we can all see how bad it was from the beginning and give credit for the mess where credit is due, then fix it.  Once its understood how bad it is, maybe people might temper their expectations as to just how much the government can and should do."


As easily as many pundits find fault with Obamacare, no one has come up with a credible alternative. Vox.com ran an article trying to summarize the seven GOP plans, contrasting them with the ACA (yes, I know you think Vox is fatally liberal, so feel free to provide us with a link to other articles doing the same analysis). 

Two big takeaways from the Vox article:

1. the GOP plans favor younger, healthier individuals over sicker, older ones.

2. Between 3 and 21 million Americans will lose health insurance coverage. 

Right now the GOP plans are bare bones in nature, and the GOP Congressional members disagree dramatically with each other over major, basic issues like whether the individual mandate should go (AFAICS any plan HAS to have that mandate if there's any chance of responsibly funding reform). 

Kurtster, I honestly think you don't understand how hard it is to get things done in Washington, and how even harder it is to legislate and implement good policy. The ACA is not ideal and requires some big improvements. But it works well enough that Republicans in Congress don't talk about repealing the ACA anymore—they talk about repairing it. Almost all economists have said the ACA is fixable, as have executives of health care companies. Medicare, btw, went through similar problems in its first few years. 

The ACA's passage was as big a win as any similar legislative achievement in our lifetimes. Trump's claim that he has a better, cheaper plan that covers everybody is a lie. And frankly, I don't give a f$%k that other people are willing to tolerate Donald's incessant lying: it's time for him to behave like an adult, stop lying/exaggerating and get sh*t done. There is no excuse for his lying anymore. I don't think he's capable of responsible, effective leadership. 

 Check out this article on the difficulties of comprehensive tax reform—unrelated subject, I know—to get an appreciation on how the ripple effects of major legislative reform make such an effort so difficult to achieve and why it's so difficult to satisfy everyone after the reform takes effect. 


A Tax Overhaul Would Be Great in Theory. Here’s Why It’s So Hard in Practice.


Also, you wrote: 

"Right now, he's got everyone and I mean everyone working against him.  Ain't no one helping him get anything done.  The bureaucracy is working directly against him and leaking like a sieve.  And in a criminal way."

Trump's lack of preparation and organization as well as his poor choice of advisors are the biggest obstacles to this administration's ability to get stuff done. "The bureaucracy" didn't force Trump's team to write an illegal and incoherent executive order on immigration controls, nor did it prevent Trump from carefully reading that order. "The bureaucracy" didn't force Trump to stick with Mike Flynn for over a month after Trump learned of Flynn's discussion with the Russian ambassador. If you can provide concrete examples of "the bureaucracy" working directly against Trump, please do—with links. Trump's team is doing the leaking to the press btw. 

Finally, I'm pretty sure the Republicans in Congress are desperate to help Trump get things done. This is supposed to be Trump's honeymoon period—he's been in power less than a month. The GOP has control of Congress. If Trump and the GOP don't get things done, they will pay dearly in the mid-term elections. The chaos and growing FUBAR are just down to Trump right now. This guy was supposed to know how to get things done, but it sure ain't happening. 


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 9:59pm

 kurtster wrote:
 
Gutterball.  Interesting.  I can work with that.  But that also means we get 10 frames.  We are in the second frame.  I'm giving him another month or so.  The one encouraging thing that Trump has demonstrated during the campaign was how he solved problems and made corrections, that worked.  I'll be judging him on how he fixes things and gets past this stuff.

Once he has got his Cabinet fully done, a month with a full cabinet should be reasonable time to start forming a working opinion on how things will go.  Even if things weren't fucking up, he's still dancing on one foot with one hand tied behind his back with half a functional Cabinet.

Right now, he's got everyone and I mean everyone working against him.  Ain't no one helping him get anything done.  The bureaucracy is working directly against him and leaking like a sieve.  And in a criminal way.  The Bureaucracy is the biggest and most dangerous part of "The Establishment".  It is fighting for its life against the threat it perceives Trump to be to their status quo.  The Civil Service is going to be looked at real hard and that scares the shit of them.

Yeah, he canned Flynn.  That counts for a lot.  He picked up the spare in the first frame with that.  He didn't get moved to another department like what happened in the Obama administration.  Yer fired just happened.  In the 8 years of Obama, just how many people got fired ?  I'm having a hard time of thinking of any.  OTOH, he did have a scandal free administration.  He even said so.

Oh, and he's also trying to get a SCOTUS justice appointed which in the best of time is difficult for any POTUS, regardless of their skill set.

 
Nice justification/rationalizations for nearly everything. He's got the house and senate, there is no one standing in his way except his own image.  If he wanted a slam dunk for the court, he could have fulfilled one of his campaign promises (to unite the nation) by nominating Merrick Garland - he's the rightful holder of that seat.
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 9:36pm

 haresfur wrote:
kurtster wrote:
27 days is plenty of time to judge this POTUS.  Werst ever.

Yep, he's gonna get us all kilt.  Just a matter of time.

Gee, Kurt. Didn't you say that Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do? In that case we have had far longer than 27 days to judge him the worst ever. The last 27 days just have been plenty of time to confirm it.

That being said, I still think the real problem is in the house and senate and we have had even longer to judge them. 

 
I was being a tad sarcastic.  Yeah he's trying to do what he said he would do.  On Congress, I agree to a certain extent.  The Senate is the real problem of the two.  McConnell being the biggest problem, now that Reid is gone.  And the fate of Obamacare truly is in Congress' hands.  A really big mess.  The wisest thing Trump might do is nothing and let it fully collapse like it will certainly do.  That way we can all see how bad it was from the beginning and give credit for the mess where credit is due, then fix it.  Once its understood how bad it is, maybe people might temper their expectations as to just how much the government can and should do.  I still point to the VA as to how the government would do if fully in charge.  Medicare ain't doing so hot either.

 steeler wrote:
ScottFromWyoming wrote:

It isn't as though we hadn't ever heard of him until January 20. I actually thought he'd govern from the middle a little. Dude's been a gutterball from day 1. How long do we have to give him before our criticism is valid? 

A guy with whom I grew up posted on Facebook this morning that Trump's firing of Flynn is a positive because it shows that in the Trump administration, unlike the Obama administration, people are being held accountable for their mistakes. Trump is decisive; a man of action; etc; etc.

  
Gutterball.  Interesting.  I can work with that.  But that also means we get 10 frames.  We are in the second frame.  I'm giving him another month or so.  The one encouraging thing that Trump has demonstrated during the campaign was how he solved problems and made corrections, that worked.  I'll be judging him on how he fixes things and gets past this stuff.

Once he has got his Cabinet fully done, a month with a full cabinet should be reasonable time to start forming a working opinion on how things will go.  Even if things weren't fucking up, he's still dancing on one foot with one hand tied behind his back with half a functional Cabinet.

Right now, he's got everyone and I mean everyone working against him.  Ain't no one helping him get anything done.  The bureaucracy is working directly against him and leaking like a sieve.  And in a criminal way.  The Bureaucracy is the biggest and most dangerous part of "The Establishment".  It is fighting for its life against the threat it perceives Trump to be to their status quo.  The Civil Service is going to be looked at real hard and that scares the shit of them.

Yeah, he canned Flynn.  That counts for a lot.  He picked up the spare in the first frame with that.  He didn't get moved to another department like what happened in the Obama administration.  Yer fired just happened.  In the 8 years of Obama, just how many people got fired ?  I'm having a hard time of thinking of any.  OTOH, he did have a scandal free administration.  He even said so.

Oh, and he's also trying to get a SCOTUS justice appointed which in the best of time is difficult for any POTUS, regardless of their skill set.


Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 8:29pm

 steeler wrote:

A guy with whom I grew up posted on Facebook this morning that Trump's firing of Flynn is a positive because it shows that in the Trump administration, unlike the Obama administration, people are being held accountable for their mistakes. Trump is decisive; a man of action; etc; etc.

 
It's a religion, if people aren't open to changing their perspective. Good luck changing someone's religion, even with facts.

Most news sources say something like "Stephanopoulos takes Trump adviser to task for having no evidence" but I saw one that said "Adviser humiliates Stephanopoulos"
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 7:23pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

It isn't as though we hadn't ever heard of him until January 20. I actually thought he'd govern from the middle a little. Dude's been a gutterball from day 1. How long do we have to give him before our criticism is valid? 

 
A guy with whom I grew up posted on Facebook this morning that Trump's firing of Flynn is a positive because it shows that in the Trump administration, unlike the Obama administration, people are being held accountable for their mistakes. Trump is decisive; a man of action; etc; etc.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 7:05pm

 kurtster wrote:
27 days is plenty of time to judge this POTUS.  Werst ever.

Yep, he's gonna get us all kilt.  Just a matter of time.

 
It isn't as though we hadn't ever heard of him until January 20. I actually thought he'd govern from the middle a little. Dude's been a gutterball from day 1. How long do we have to give him before our criticism is valid? 
Steely_D

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Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 6:17pm

White House posts wrong versions of Trump's orders on its website


A USA TODAY review of presidential documents found at least five cases where the version posted on the White House website doesn't match the official version sent to the Federal Register. The differences include minor grammatical changes, missing words and paragraph renumbering — but also two cases where the original text referred to inaccurate or non-existent provisions of law.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 6:03pm

 kurtster wrote:
27 days is plenty of time to judge this POTUS.  Werst ever.

Yep, he's gonna get us all kilt.  Just a matter of time.

 
Do us a solid and let us all know when you notice any sign of credible and coherent policy planning. All I've seen so far is one very long Amateur Hour. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump puts Charlie Sheen and Johnny Manziel in the cabinet at some point.  

It's one thing to disrupt the status quo—Trump's doing a fine job of that through ignorance, arrogance, constant lying and confrontational behavior. It's another thing entirely to articulate and implement an organized and productive plan for reform. Trump will never be able to do the latter. HE IS TOO F$#%ING CRAZY.  

What we're seeing now is not progress or improvement. It's just a bunch of unprepared and uninformed sleazeballs learning on the job and doing it very poorly. If I want this kind of chaos in my life, I'll go to a dive bar on a Saturday night. 
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 6:00pm


haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 5:49pm

 kurtster wrote:
27 days is plenty of time to judge this POTUS.  Werst ever.

Yep, he's gonna get us all kilt.  Just a matter of time.

 
Gee, Kurt. Didn't you say that Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do? In that case we have had far longer than 27 days to judge him the worst ever. The last 27 days just have been plenty of time to confirm it.

That being said, I still think the real problem is in the house and senate and we have had even longer to judge them. 
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 5:33pm


‘Unbelievable Turmoil’: Trump’s First Month Leaves Washington Reeling


...

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, railed against the administration on Tuesday, decrying the “dysfunction” of the country’s national security apparatus and accusing the White House of being a place where “nobody knows who’s in charge and nobody knows who’s setting policy.”

Gen. Tony Thomas, head of the military’s Special Operations Command, expressed concern about upheaval inside the White House. “Our government continues to be in unbelievable turmoil. I hope they sort it out soon because we’re a nation at war,” he said at a military conference on Tuesday.

...

Mr. Trump’s allies note that the president has moved forward in areas that are more typical of the early days of a first-term administration. Mr. Trump nominated a Supreme Court justice 12 days into his tenure, and has issued a dozen executive orders, including ones to limit the influence of lobbyists, reduce regulations, pare the Affordable Care Act, move forward on pipeline construction, end trade deals and speed up deportations.

...

“If you’re someone inside the Beltway, you think it's been really rocky,” she said. “If you are outside the Beltway, you think, ‘That’s why we sent him there.’ There has been a lot of chaos and a lot of growing pains, but they have gotten a lot done.”

...

It may also have consequences for Mr. Trump’s ability to help Republicans win in the 2018 midterm elections. And Republican campaign experts acknowledge that his chances for winning re-election may hinge on his ability to contain the White House frenzy.

“You are processing so much information in a day now. This stuff would have doomed anyone else, just one or two of them,” said Thomas M. Davis, a former Republican member of Congress from Virginia. “They have got to produce something. If all you’ve got is a bunch of executive orders and a Twitter feed, you don’t want to go into an election like that.”

 
kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 5:22pm

27 days is plenty of time to judge this POTUS.  Werst ever.

Yep, he's gonna get us all kilt.  Just a matter of time.


Red_Dragon

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Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 4:24pm


Red_Dragon

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Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 4:23pm

 haresfur wrote:

Apparently Sarah Silverman's humour isn't for him.

 
I never cared for her much, either.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 3:20pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Or, you're just kinda clueless about some stuff.

 
Apparently Sarah Silverman's humour isn't for him.
black321

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Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 14, 2017 - 10:46am

 miamizsun wrote:
simmah down

it's valentine's day 

besides i'm still the resident agitating bastid

please don't ever doubt that
 

 
to be clear, i wasn't directing any of my comments to Mr. Dragon or anyone specific.  just trying to point out the whole self fulfilling prophecy thing...
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