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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » The Abortion Wars Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 13, 14, 15  Next
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hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:50am

 Xeric wrote:

Nicely said, Maryte.  I'd only add this, in reference to the bolded portion: it implies that there is a problem with a shortage of adoptive parents.  Around here, at least, quite the opposite is true—there are for more couples looking for babies (especially newborns—perhaps older kids are a different story) than there are babies available for adoption.  This is, as somebody said, probably largely because there is such a stigma about "giving away your baby." 

Having a baby is biology, plain and far too simple.  Being a parent, now that's something to aspire to—and to realize you're not ready to do if you're not.  My hat is off to the young women I know who've made that decision—and the children they bore, now being raised by wonderful, excellent parents, would certainly thank them, too.
 
imo, the thing that a child wants more than anything is to be loved unconditionally by their mother.  i know about 15 adoptees and in every case, they have suffered severe emotional damage because of it. Several of them are severely emotionally disturbed, including the one who is squatting in my crib right now.

I think we are able to love our children, and our children love us back, because we are able to relate to each other in a way that only blood relatives can. But it seems very hard to make that connection when you are put together by fate, as it were. The children feel huge rejection, and the parents get frustrated and give up.

Also, I assume it's the same way, we put huge shame on girls (not boys) who get pregnant, and we force them to give up their babies. 

These are just observations on my own part. maybe there are 20 good adoptions for every one bad one, i don't know. in any case, just like other things in life, we are faced with huge challenges and we do not yet have clear answers.
katzendogs

katzendogs Avatar

Location: Pasadena ,Texas
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:44am

In the 70's it wasn't easy to have an abortion in Ohio. I paid for a friend to have one (not mine) done in New York.
My first wife had one or two,  voluntarily and one because of medical. Something about and IUD getting loose and puncturing her bladder. Then in 76' we had a son.

Second wife had way many more than one should have had. (none) mine. Then in 86 and 1990 we had kids. I wouldn't recommend an abortion. Nor will I ever "pay" for one. I do believe  women should have the right to choose and it should be the business of no one other than the people involved.

Also. I do not believe  the government should pay for, dictate or otherwise politically have a say in the matter. It has no use being a sticking point in elections.
Xeric

Xeric Avatar

Location: Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:39am

 maryte wrote:
I must state that I agree with cc_rider one-hundred percent (no surprise there).  On a personal note, my (now deceased) sister had a baby at 16 and put it up for adoption - at my parents' insistence.  She wanted to keep it, but my mother, who had raised six children (of which I, at age 6, was the youngest), knew that my sister would not have been responsible enough to take responsibility for the infant and that this baby girl would, for all intents and purposes, have been *her* seventh child.  My sister-in-law was adopted (as was her brother).  Her adoptive father was such an ass, he emotionally abused his wife for the remainder of his life because they could have no natural children of their own - and when his mother died (he had already passed away), my sister-in-law and her brother were very specifically listed in the will to NOT inherit anything and that side of the family proceeded to ignore them.  At this point, neither of them knew they were adopted, so they were very distressed about why everyone hated them (and they were both over 18 by that time).  Their adoptive father also burned their adoption papers, lest anyone realize he was not capable of fathering children.  I used to work with a woman who, with her husband, adopted two children, after years and years of trying to have their own.  Their first was a special needs child (not physically so much, but his mother was a drug addict, so he has always had very extreme learning issues) and their second is an incredibly bright young lady - honor society, state-championship calibre soccer goalie, etc.  Both children have known they were adopted since they were old enough to understand the concept (likely they would have figured it out - the older son is not even five feet tall, the younger daughter is at least five-foot-eight).  They have been and continue to be incredible parents.

My point?  First, not all adoption circumstances are ideal, either for the child or for the parents - but I have the utmost respect for those who make the best of it.  But the thing that chaps my ass more than anything is when I have asked adamant anti-choicers how many children *they* have adopted, I have NEVER gotten a positive response.  I'm sure there are some anti-choicers who have adopted children, but far too many people who believe their opinion should be law have never opened their hearts and homes to the children they insist should be born (and don't get me started on "abstinence only" education).
Sorry. Bit of a ramble, that.

 
Nicely said, Maryte.  I'd only add this, in reference to the bolded portion: it implies that there is a problem with a shortage of adoptive parents.  Around here, at least, quite the opposite is true—there are for more couples looking for babies (especially newborns—perhaps older kids are a different story) than there are babies available for adoption.  This is, as somebody said, probably largely because there is such a stigma about "giving away your baby." 

Having a baby is biology, plain and far too simple.  Being a parent, now that's something to aspire to—and to realize you're not ready to do if you're not.  My hat is off to the young women I know who've made that decision—and the children they bore, now being raised by wonderful, excellent parents, would certainly thank them, too.

K_Love

K_Love Avatar

Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:27am

 maryte wrote:
My point?  First, not all adoption circumstances are ideal, either for the child or for the parents - but I have the utmost respect for those who make the best of it.  But the thing that chaps my ass more than anything is when I have asked adamant anti-choicers how many children *they* have adopted, I have NEVER gotten a positive response.  I'm sure there are some anti-choicers who have adopted children, but far too many people who believe their opinion should be law have never opened their hearts and homes to the children they insist should be born (and don't get me started on "abstinence only" education).
Sorry. Bit of a ramble, that.

 
I've always wondered the same thing; how many children are being adopted by those who think that women should not have a choice?  I'd also like to know what you think is the ideal situation if your 12-year-old daughter is raped by a male family member.  Do you honestly think she is emotionally and physically ready to carry that child to term and then look at that child for the rest of her life only to be reminded of what happened to her?  How many children in that situation do you think are abused and in turn become abusers?

And Joan, I love you but you can't say that abortion = murder and then turn around and say that you don't think that women who have abortions are murderers.  you can't have it both ways. 

The bottom line is that if you are against abotion, DON'T HAVE ONE.  Why is that so hard to understand?

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:26am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
  • I don't like abortion
  • I have never had an abortion
  • I think it should be legal
  • I would like to see the time limit reduce except for cases of serious medical issues
  • I think that sex education should be thorough and the ease of getting pregnant and the difficulties of looking after babies should be repeated to teenagers ad nauseum
  • I think that contraceptive education should be comprehensive
  • I think that contraception should be easily available
  • I think that adoption should be made less of a stigma for the mother "giving away" her child
  • I am concerned about cases of illegal and dangerous.life threatening abortions in countries where it is illegal
  • I think that banning abortion would be a law against the poor because the rich would just go overseas anyhow.


 
My guess is that 80% or more of the american people feel the same way. The issue of abortion is just a tool the Right uses to keep their base activated. They don't care about women, women's rights, baby's rights, peoples' rights. If they did, guns would be illegal and they wouldn't send young people off to war. It's just a power trip. 

Again, if everyone was treated equally, there would be no need of any of this, because it is the poor who suffer worst. And, again, women have been giving each other illegal abortions since they figured out they could. 
(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:24am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
  • I don't like abortion
  • I have never had an abortion
  • I think it should be legal
  • I would like to see the time limit reduced except for cases of serious medical issues
  • I think that sex education should be thorough and the ease of getting pregnant and the difficulties of looking after babies should be repeated to teenagers ad nauseum
  • I think that contraceptive education should be comprehensive
  • I think that contraception should be easily available
  • I think that adoption should be made less of a stigma for the mother "giving away" her child
  • I am concerned about cases of illegal and dangerous.life threatening abortions in countries where it is illegal
  • I think that banning abortion would be a law against the poor because the rich would just go overseas anyhow.
 
I love you because you are sane and sensible. A_G and I will have to come over there and have a pint with you and the Mr.





MonkeyPod

MonkeyPod Avatar

Location: Florida
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:13am

owld_skipper wrote:

I didn't take offence, I just wanted to be clear about my personal point of view.






What we need is to invent the detachable vulva. That way women can continue to work, go horseback riding, or compete in the Olympics without the bother. I'm sure we could find enough young Amish girls to carry all the unwanted fetuses to full-term.


(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 11:00am

 MonkeyPod wrote:

Hey, sorry about the inflection there.  I wasn't speaking directly to you and I should have said that I was adding to what you said.  I think I edited that part out.
 
I didn't take offence, I just wanted to be clear about my personal point of view.





MonkeyPod

MonkeyPod Avatar

Location: Florida
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:58am

owld_skipper wrote:

Actually, I am making no effort at anything. I am observing an American election where the Republican party has as part of its election platform the wish to overturn Roe vs Wade and the desire to re-criminalize abortion.

Of course I value all human life equally, don't you?

As you said, "Act responsibly and teach your children better than you were taught."


Hey, sorry about the inflection there.  I wasn't speaking directly to you and I should have said that I was adding to what you said.  I think I edited that part out.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:58am

 nuggler wrote:

Well, don't wish your life away. We choose our lives because we have very specific things to learn from it & very specific things to offer. Life is all about figuring out just what those things are. Its our karma, sister. Nothing happens for nothing. We are exactly where we are meant to be.

 

 
I know that to be true. You an I have very similar thoughts in many cases, and I have been trying my hardest to practice this. i know this is true, but it's a bitch. i have had to learn many hard lessons in my life, but i am still very lucky. i support myself, have loving friends and family, and all the comfort needs i need, and then some. 

but when you grow up being abused, the pain body is deep and wide, and even though, intellectually, I understand it all, the pain body likes to dig up the old stories and mix them up with the new stories, and this causes great suffering.

I go up and down, but so far i have hope that my problem will be resolved soon, that it will be a mere inconvenience, and that i will be able to return to my home in peace. '

/threadjack 
(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:55am

 MonkeyPod wrote:

If you assume that the Right-to-Lifers or Anti-Abortion activists consider all human life equal then you MUST view the issue in a global scope. There are places in the world where abortion is a form of birth control and yes to a degree that exists in the US as well. If you took a poll of a wide cross section of Americans you would find that most people oppose abortion as a form of contraception. But if the majority of abortions are taking place outside the US then why focus your effort here? Don't you consider all human life to be equal?

...

Simply put, the more effort people put into preventing the medical procedures commonly called abortion, the more solutions medical science will develop to circumvent a law or the pressure from the various advocacy groups. The only realistic solution for now and the future is the proper application of knowledge with regard to reproduction. Act responsibly and teach your children better than you were taught.

 
Actually, I am making no effort at anything. I am observing an American election where the Republican party has as part of its election platform the wish to overturn Roe vs Wade and the desire to re-criminalize abortion.

Of course I value all human life equally, don't you?

As you said, "Act responsibly and teach your children better than you were taught."
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:53am

I must state that I agree with cc_rider one-hundred percent (no surprise there).  On a personal note, my (now deceased) sister had a baby at 16 and put it up for adoption - at my parents' insistence.  She wanted to keep it, but my mother, who had raised six children (of which I, at age 6, was the youngest), knew that my sister would not have been responsible enough to take responsibility for the infant and that this baby girl would, for all intents and purposes, have been *her* seventh child.  My sister-in-law was adopted (as was her brother).  Her adoptive father was such an ass, he emotionally abused his wife for the remainder of his life because they could have no natural children of their own - and when his mother died (he had already passed away), my sister-in-law and her brother were very specifically listed in the will to NOT inherit anything and that side of the family proceeded to ignore them.  At this point, neither of them knew they were adopted, so they were very distressed about why everyone hated them (and they were both over 18 by that time).  Their adoptive father also burned their adoption papers, lest anyone realize he was not capable of fathering children.  I used to work with a woman who, with her husband, adopted two children, after years and years of trying to have their own.  Their first was a special needs child (not physically so much, but his mother was a drug addict, so he has always had very extreme learning issues) and their second is an incredibly bright young lady - honor society, state-championship calibre soccer goalie, etc.  Both children have known they were adopted since they were old enough to understand the concept (likely they would have figured it out - the older son is not even five feet tall, the younger daughter is at least five-foot-eight).  They have been and continue to be incredible parents.

My point?  First, not all adoption circumstances are ideal, either for the child or for the parents - but I have the utmost respect for those who make the best of it.  But the thing that chaps my ass more than anything is when I have asked adamant anti-choicers how many children *they* have adopted, I have NEVER gotten a positive response.  I'm sure there are some anti-choicers who have adopted children, but far too many people who believe their opinion should be law have never opened their hearts and homes to the children they insist should be born (and don't get me started on "abstinence only" education).
Sorry. Bit of a ramble, that.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:52am

 owld_skipper wrote:

If you believe in reincarnation and karma at all, you will reap the benefits of making this life pleasant for others the next time you come around.

   
 
I sure hope so, because I sure am not getting much thanks for it now.

However, you did just spark another way of looking at this situation, something that romeotuma said to me earlier, that I must feel loving kindness in my heart for him, as he must be suffering even more badly than i am. I have a place to stay, and friends and family who care about me. he has nothing and no one. 
nuggler

nuggler Avatar

Location: RU Sirius ?
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:50am

 hippiechick wrote:


Every time I ponder that, Nugs, it puts me in a real funk, because, if it's so, I sure coulda made a lot better choice.

I hope my next life is more pleasant than this one was.  

 
Well, don't wish your life away. We choose our lives because we have very specific things to learn from it & very specific things to offer. Life is all about figuring out just what those things are. Its our karma, sister. Nothing happens for nothing. We are exactly where we are meant to be.


joan_c

joan_c Avatar

Location: Rushing Here, Rushing There
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:49am

 hippiechick wrote:

Really, until that baby can survive on its own, it is a part of the mother and not a separate entity, and it a women does not want that part of her body, she should not be forced to keep it.

And again I will say, until women are equal and are all afforded a right to choose whether or not they wish to get pregnant, sex will be a tool of power for men, and men have no right to make this decision.

A lifetime of taking care of another human (it doesn't stop at 18, folks) is a huge price to pay for an hour (if you're lucky) of fun under the covers. A child born as a product of rape or incest may suffer the pains of its mother, and grow up to repeat the same issues.

There is no pleasant answer, as in many situations in life, but since this is one that should be handled on an individual basis because there is just no one right answer. The thing is, if you don't want an abortion, no one will make you have one, but if you do, what gives those other people the right to say we can't choose. 

 
I disagree.  From the moment of conception, that is a human life, and not a part of the woman's body, or just tissue as you said last night.

As far as a lifetime of caring for another human being, if the mother doesn't feel that she can handle that resposibility, the loving choice would be adoption.  There are so many people out there who would love to have children and can't do it on their own.  My brother and his wife are in this category.

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:47am

 hippiechick wrote:


Every time I ponder that, Nugs, it puts me in a real funk, because, if it's so, I sure coulda made a lot better choice.

I hope my next life is more pleasant than this one was.  

 
If you believe in reincarnation and karma at all, you will reap the benefits of making this life pleasant for others the next time you come around.

   

MonkeyPod

MonkeyPod Avatar

Location: Florida
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:47am

owld_skipper wrote:
My 2 cents, for what it is worth...

I could never carry a developing child and have no idea what that would mean, I can only speculate.

I would never recommend for or against an abortion, it is not my place to do so. Being pregnant is an intensely feminine experience, and while we males may have points of view, it is in the hearts and souls of women that the experience and all its complexities lives.

The medical termination of a pregnancy is a matter between a woman, her understanding of God, and her physician. One may be adverse to pregnancy termination on moral grounds and religious grounds, but in my view one does not have the right to interfere with or hinder a woman's right, yes right, to decide what she may decide.

If you Americans, as a nation, decide to re-criminalize abortion that will be the true abomination, IMHO.


edit:  when I write the word 'you' I really mean the whole abortion conscience community.

If you assume that the Right-to-Lifers or Anti-Abortion activists consider all human life equal then you MUST view the issue in a global scope. There are places in the world where abortion is a form of birth control and yes to a degree that exists in the US as well. If you took a poll of a wide cross section of Americans you would find that most people oppose abortion as a form of contraception. But if the majority of abortions are taking place outside the US then why focus your effort here? Don't you consider all human life to be equal?

The other aspect of abortion is that the well to do will always have access to it. By making it illegal you are really just oppressing a segment of the population. I suspect there will eventually be a series of pills a woman will be able to take at anytime during the pregnancy causing a miscarriage. What are you going to do then? Appoint an Abortion Czar?

Simply put, the more effort people put into preventing the medical procedures commonly called abortion, the more solutions medical science will develop to circumvent a law or the pressure from the various advocacy groups. The only realistic solution for now and the future is the proper application of knowledge with regard to reproduction. Act responsibly and teach your children better than you were taught.


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:44am

 nuggler wrote:

Curry is possibly right in saying its not a child until birth. So let's put this question in its proper perspective & ask about the rights of the incarnating soul who, contrary to the common misconception, chooses the parents rather than the other way round. What are the rights of that soul, since we just happen to be spirits in a material world? Shines a whole new light on the question as it well should but I suspect that not too many can see that light.
 

Every time I ponder that, Nugs, it puts me in a real funk, because, if it's so, I sure coulda made a lot better choice.

I hope my next life is more pleasant than this one was.  
nuggler

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Location: RU Sirius ?
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:41am

 joan_c wrote:

What about the rights of the unborn child?
 
Curry is possibly right in saying its not a child until birth. So let's put this question in its proper perspective & ask about the rights of the incarnating soul who, contrary to the common misconception, chooses the parents rather than the other way round. What are the rights of that soul, since we just happen to be spirits in a material world? Shines a whole new light on the question as it well should but I suspect that not too many can or want to see that light.

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Oct 11, 2008 - 10:40am

 owld_skipper wrote:

I don't know about the rights of an unborn child. What are those rights and when are they vested? At conception? At birth? These are religious and scientific questions, the answers to which seem to be largely a matter of opinion.

And, if the unborn do have rights, what about the rights of those miscarried children, whose numbers far exceed the oft used quote of 30 million abortions since Roe vs Wade? If women who avail themselves of medical termination of their pregnancy are guilty of murder, are women whose pregnancies end in miscarriage guilty of criminal negligence?
 
Really, until that baby can survive on its own, it is a part of the mother and not a separate entity, and it a women does not want that part of her body, she should not be forced to keep it.

And again I will say, until women are equal and are all afforded a right to choose whether or not they wish to get pregnant, sex will be a tool of power for men, and men have no right to make this decision.

A lifetime of taking care of another human (it doesn't stop at 18, folks) is a huge price to pay for an hour (if you're lucky) of fun under the covers. A child born as a product of rape or incest may suffer the pains of its mother, and grow up to repeat the same issues.

There is no pleasant answer, as in many situations in life, but since this is one that should be handled on an individual basis because there is just no one right answer. The thing is, if you don't want an abortion, no one will make you have one, but if you do, what gives those other people the right to say we can't choose. 
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