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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Impeachment Time: Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 55, 56, 57  Next
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kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 8, 2020 - 3:14am



 sirdroseph wrote:


 Isabeau wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:
 
Not at all.  Our founding fathers wisely made the litmus test for impeachment ambiguous and subjective to prevent the very serious process of removing a sitting President a rare and break only when needed type of scenario foreseeing the possible partisan divide of our system.   Therefore the alleged offense has to be blatant enough to move enough representatives to vote against their party and constituency in removing their President or in this case their choice off of the ballot in the next election ergo there must be extreme passion and concern for said representatives to go against their party and constituents in the vote.  It must be an extraordinary circumstance eliciting extraordinary passion to make this move.   My only point regarding Romney is why he was the only one so moved to do so.  Were it someone else like say Lamar Alexander, I would agree with you in the adulation because he truly does not have an axe to grind and has a history of fair mindedness and integrity.   Mittens not only does not have that, but he has a personal history and ax to grind with Trump therefore in my opinion Mr. Romney, as Dylan famously said to his audience in his first electric gig in Europe "I don't believe you."  You do believe him and praise him for his decision,  I think he is a petty and smarmy politician.   That is really all it is regarding Romney.   As far as the general notion of impeachment, I think Trump did exactly what he did, but in my opinion it is not an impeachable offense any more than banging an intern in the oval and lying about it under oath afterwards.   Inappropriate and illegal?  Sure, enough so to remove a sitting, very popular and up for re election President?  No.   You can disagree and that is fine, that is the way the founding fathers intended.


 

Nah, doesn't pass muster, buster.
1. Requesting assistance from a foreign government to INVESTIGATE a 'potential' political opponent.
2. A Nepotism Administration insists on investigating the Son of a former Vice President — hypocrisy at its finest.
3. Administration WITHOLDING documents.
4. Administration BLOCKING Witness Testimony
5. Senate Leader Co-Ordinated with WH regarding trial.

Genital grabbing, porn star payoffs, unqualified appointments for cabinet, destroying government departments from within, Going limp in front of Putin in Helsinki, Constant attacks, Adolescent name calling,  Magic Marker Meaty-urologist, profiting from maintaining businesses that have had secret service, foreign dignitaries, friends and golfing at Mar-a-lago utilized at U.S. taxpayer expense.

Yes. I strongly disagree.  

 

I may be wrong, but at some point I am pretty sure Lazy will address this and he is so much smarter than me so I hope he does.
  You are really good at name calling, but I am pretty sure almost all of that stuff has nothing to do with impeachment.


 

I'm sorry, but have you been on some kind of prolonged vacation? Isabeau's points 1-5 contain the nutshell of the grounds for impeachment. Obstruction of Congress is an impeachable offense—it was one of the charges leveled at Nixon.  Asking/blackmailing/bribing a foreign power for assistance with an an election is an impeachable offense. The very fact that Trump should have well understood that the claims of the Bidens' bad practices in Ukraine were false—Trump was told as much often enough—but still promoted those groundless charges further magnifies the corrupt nature of Trump's project.


"Therefore the alleged offense has to be blatant enough to move enough representatives to vote against their party and constituency in removing their President or in this case their choice off of the ballot in the next election ergo there must be extreme passion and concern for said representatives to go against their party and constituents in the vote."



That happened to Nixon once the White House tapes were made public. He also faced removal from office because the economy was faltering and the country was still angry about the deceptions surrounding the Vietnam War as revealed by the recently published Pentagon Papers. Trump did not have those problems.

Here are some other reasons Nixon faced tougher sledding than Trump. The big reason in my mind was Fox News which has turned into a propaganda machine for Trump. Nixon didn't have a big enough ally in the media to spin the Watergate coverup.

"Inappropriate and illegal? Sure, enough so to remove a sitting, very popular and up for re election President? No."


Your excerpted statement captures some of the political nature of impeachment. Trump's offenses were blatant enough that Republicans could have and should have removed him but those Republicans did not feel enough pressure from their constituents to remove him. Trump's offenses cleared the Constitutional bar for removal but popular Republican support for him didn't want it. The consequences of voting against a president with mid-90% approval rating among Republicans would have been politically fatal.

FWIW popular Republican support for Nixon was strong even after the revelations of the White House tapes:


Days before he resigned, a Gallup poll found that only 31 percent of Republicans thought Nixon should no longer be president. And some of those supporters deeply resented their representatives for their role in ousting Nixon, which may even have contributed to the Democratic landslide in the 1974 midterm elections.


As for Romney: do you have any proof that he voted against Trump merely because he had a personal axe to grind?  He likely still has presidential ambitions but his vote runs counter to those aspirations.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 8, 2020 - 2:25am



 Isabeau wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:
 
Not at all.  Our founding fathers wisely made the litmus test for impeachment ambiguous and subjective to prevent the very serious process of removing a sitting President a rare and break only when needed type of scenario foreseeing the possible partisan divide of our system.   Therefore the alleged offense has to be blatant enough to move enough representatives to vote against their party and constituency in removing their President or in this case their choice off of the ballot in the next election ergo there must be extreme passion and concern for said representatives to go against their party and constituents in the vote.  It must be an extraordinary circumstance eliciting extraordinary passion to make this move.   My only point regarding Romney is why he was the only one so moved to do so.  Were it someone else like say Lamar Alexander, I would agree with you in the adulation because he truly does not have an axe to grind and has a history of fair mindedness and integrity.   Mittens not only does not have that, but he has a personal history and ax to grind with Trump therefore in my opinion Mr. Romney, as Dylan famously said to his audience in his first electric gig in Europe "I don't believe you."  You do believe him and praise him for his decision,  I think he is a petty and smarmy politician.   That is really all it is regarding Romney.   As far as the general notion of impeachment, I think Trump did exactly what he did, but in my opinion it is not an impeachable offense any more than banging an intern in the oval and lying about it under oath afterwards.   Inappropriate and illegal?  Sure, enough so to remove a sitting, very popular and up for re election President?  No.   You can disagree and that is fine, that is the way the founding fathers intended.


 

Nah, doesn't pass muster, buster.
1. Requesting assistance from a foreign government to INVESTIGATE a 'potential' political opponent.
2. A Nepotism Administration insists on investigating the Son of a former Vice President — hypocrisy at its finest.
3. Administration WITHOLDING documents.
4. Administration BLOCKING Witness Testimony
5. Senate Leader Co-Ordinated with WH regarding trial.

Genital grabbing, porn star payoffs, unqualified appointments for cabinet, destroying government departments from within, Going limp in front of Putin in Helsinki, Constant attacks, Adolescent name calling,  Magic Marker Meaty-urologist, profiting from maintaining businesses that have had secret service, foreign dignitaries, friends and golfing at Mar-a-lago utilized at U.S. taxpayer expense.

Yes. I strongly disagree.  

 

I may be wrong, but at some point I am pretty sure Lazy will address this and he is so much smarter than me so I hope he does.
  You are really good at name calling, but I am pretty sure almost all of that stuff has nothing to do with impeachment.


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 8, 2020 - 2:22am



 Isabeau wrote:




 


 
Wow.  You sound like the mirror image of Kurtster.

 

Isn't it fair to have one? I'm not trying to curb or intimidate anyone into MY way of thinking, but the misogyny and racism is a thread throughout Trump's followers - Different levels,  yes, but there nonetheless. His base way too often seek to suppress women, people of color and lgbtq. These folks thrive on misinformation, denying what's in front of their eyes, distraction and an unyielding need for an authoritarian.

You find it easy to minimize the dangers here? Its easy to dismiss a threat when you're not the target.
 

That's alright we all have a little bigotry in us,  I know I do.  That is not a derogatory statement at all either just because it is bigotry it doesn't mean it is not true there are a lot of his followers that do indeed fit that description.  But as in all bigotry, we have to remember that there are many more people in these groups we put in boxes that do not fit our perceptions of them.   I struggle with this myself.  I always have to keep in mind that most liberals are well meaning and our differences are only in our methods of solutions, not because it is good vs. evil which is preposterous.   We should all do better to keep our conversations in this context.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 4:10pm



 kcar wrote:


 
The system did not work because

1. Trump committed impeachable offenses

2. Most Republican senators did not dispute the facts but made the dubious claim that Trump's behavior did not warrant removal from office. Their stance was a foregone conclusion. If Trump wiretapped his Democratic opposition and was caught on tape ordering a cover-up as Nixon did, today's GOP Senators would not vote to remove him. If Trump clearly committed felonies, today's GOP Senators would not vote to remove him.

Republicans in Congress would never vote to impeach and remove Trump as long as the economy is doing well and their voters liked Trump. Unfortunately those Republicans took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to blindly follow opinion polls.


"Impeachment is serious business and should not be used just because the President was mean to you."


If you think that's was the driving motivation for the Democrats' actions then with all due respect your grasp of the facts and the purpose of impeachment is quite shallow.
 


Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 4:08pm



 sirdroseph wrote:
 
Not at all.  Our founding fathers wisely made the litmus test for impeachment ambiguous and subjective to prevent the very serious process of removing a sitting President a rare and break only when needed type of scenario foreseeing the possible partisan divide of our system.   Therefore the alleged offense has to be blatant enough to move enough representatives to vote against their party and constituency in removing their President or in this case their choice off of the ballot in the next election ergo there must be extreme passion and concern for said representatives to go against their party and constituents in the vote.  It must be an extraordinary circumstance eliciting extraordinary passion to make this move.   My only point regarding Romney is why he was the only one so moved to do so.  Were it someone else like say Lamar Alexander, I would agree with you in the adulation because he truly does not have an axe to grind and has a history of fair mindedness and integrity.   Mittens not only does not have that, but he has a personal history and ax to grind with Trump therefore in my opinion Mr. Romney, as Dylan famously said to his audience in his first electric gig in Europe "I don't believe you."  You do believe him and praise him for his decision,  I think he is a petty and smarmy politician.   That is really all it is regarding Romney.   As far as the general notion of impeachment, I think Trump did exactly what he did, but in my opinion it is not an impeachable offense any more than banging an intern in the oval and lying about it under oath afterwards.   Inappropriate and illegal?  Sure, enough so to remove a sitting, very popular and up for re election President?  No.   You can disagree and that is fine, that is the way the founding fathers intended.


 

Nah, doesn't pass muster, buster.
1. Requesting assistance from a foreign government to INVESTIGATE a 'potential' political opponent.
2. A Nepotism Administration insists on investigating the Son of a former Vice President — hypocrisy at its finest.
3. Administration WITHOLDING documents.
4. Administration BLOCKING Witness Testimony
5. Senate Leader Co-Ordinated with WH regarding trial.

Genital grabbing, porn star payoffs, unqualified appointments for cabinet, destroying government departments from within, Going limp in front of Putin in Helsinki, Constant attacks, Adolescent name calling,  Magic Marker Meaty-urologist, profiting from maintaining businesses that have had secret service, foreign dignitaries, friends and golfing at Mar-a-lago utilized at U.S. taxpayer expense.

Yes. I strongly disagree.  

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 3:52pm



 sirdroseph wrote:


 Isabeau wrote:


 R_P wrote:
 Isabeau wrote:
...amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw ... of you.
 
As long as others are getting screwed even more, he'll take one for the team.
 

Misery loves company. If they can 'own' the libs somehow that gets back at every woman that said no to a date, the jobs that abandoned them, the sight of an interracial or gay couple and people of color acting like they have the same freedoms as they do. Its an ancient patriarchal tactic of blaming the 'other,' anyone who isn't. just. like. them.

Howling and leaving claw marks as they are dragged into modernity. Same thing happened with Cro-magnon vs Neanderthal.  Few sentient women will mate with them.
Evolution is our friend.  

 
Wow.  You sound like the mirror image of Kurtster.


 

Isn't it fair to have one? I'm not trying to curb or intimidate anyone into MY way of thinking, but the misogyny and racism is a thread throughout Trump's followers - Different levels,  yes, but there nonetheless. His base way too often seek to suppress women, people of color and lgbtq. These folks thrive on misinformation, denying what's in front of their eyes, distraction and an unyielding need for an authoritarian.

You find it easy to minimize the dangers here? Its easy to dismiss a threat when you're not the target.
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 3:31pm



 sirdroseph wrote:


 kcar wrote:


 steeler wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is completely lacking in integrity and extraordinarily petty, so much so that he voted to convict Trump even though it will bring a torrent of abuse upon him just to even — in Romney’s mind — some personal score with Trump. Pretty stupid, right?  He could have just voted with the rest of the Republicans and saved himself a lot of abuse. Would he then have been one of the few Republicans you said in an earlier post may have voted out of their legitimate belief that Trump did nothing deserving of impeachment or would he have fallen in, in your eyes , with the vast majority of Republicans who you say just voted their own partisan, self-interest? And you said earlier only a few Democrats may have voted on some principle but the rest — like the Republicans — voted only in their partisan self-interest? So, in your view, almost all of the Senators, on both sides of the aisle, lacked integrity and patriotism? But Romney was the worst?

Your earlier post:

“Look, there may have been some Democrats who truly believed what Trump did was an impeachable offense and voted with their conscience and there may be a few Republicans who really thought that Trump did not do anything wrong. Imo they would both be wrong, but at least they were voting with the correct intentions. However most were just doing whatever had the best chance of retaining or gaining power and control because that is what all of this bull hockey is really about.”

 

Taking up the implied logic of your last sentence in the bolded section, sirdroseph, why would Democratic Senators and Congressmen vote for the impeachment and removal of Trump when they knew that Republican Senators would keep Trump in office anyway? If you answer that those Democratic politicians were voting against Trump only because they wanted to retain the support of their constituents who wanted Trump impeached and removed, isn't it also possible that those Democratic politicians felt obliged to vote in line with the majority of their constituents, the majority who wanted Trump out of office? 


 

Absolutely.  That is the way the system is designed and it worked because they did not make their case to the Senate and the American people enough to force the Republicans to go against their constituency.  Impeachment is serious business and should not be used just because the President was mean to you.
 

The system did not work because

1. Trump committed impeachable offenses

2. Most Republican senators did not dispute the facts but made the dubious claim that Trump's behavior did not warrant removal from office. Their stance was a foregone conclusion. If Trump wiretapped his Democratic opposition and was caught on tape ordering a cover-up as Nixon did, today's GOP Senators would not vote to remove him. If Trump clearly committed felonies, today's GOP Senators would not vote to remove him.

Republicans in Congress would never vote to impeach and remove Trump as long as the economy is doing well and their voters liked Trump. Unfortunately those Republicans took an oath to uphold the Constitution, not to blindly follow opinion polls.


"Impeachment is serious business and should not be used just because the President was mean to you."


If you think that's was the driving motivation for the Democrats' actions then with all due respect your grasp of the facts and the purpose of impeachment is quite shallow.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 2:16am



 Isabeau wrote:


 R_P wrote:
 Isabeau wrote:
...amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw ... of you.
 
As long as others are getting screwed even more, he'll take one for the team.
 

Misery loves company. If they can 'own' the libs somehow that gets back at every woman that said no to a date, the jobs that abandoned them, the sight of an interracial or gay couple and people of color acting like they have the same freedoms as they do. Its an ancient patriarchal tactic of blaming the 'other,' anyone who isn't. just. like. them.

Howling and leaving claw marks as they are dragged into modernity. Same thing happened with Cro-magnon vs Neanderthal.  Few sentient women will mate with them.
Evolution is our friend.  

 
Wow.  You sound like the mirror image of Kurtster.

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 2:13am



 kcar wrote:


 steeler wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is completely lacking in integrity and extraordinarily petty, so much so that he voted to convict Trump even though it will bring a torrent of abuse upon him just to even — in Romney’s mind — some personal score with Trump. Pretty stupid, right?  He could have just voted with the rest of the Republicans and saved himself a lot of abuse. Would he then have been one of the few Republicans you said in an earlier post may have voted out of their legitimate belief that Trump did nothing deserving of impeachment or would he have fallen in, in your eyes , with the vast majority of Republicans who you say just voted their own partisan, self-interest? And you said earlier only a few Democrats may have voted on some principle but the rest — like the Republicans — voted only in their partisan self-interest? So, in your view, almost all of the Senators, on both sides of the aisle, lacked integrity and patriotism? But Romney was the worst?

Your earlier post:

“Look, there may have been some Democrats who truly believed what Trump did was an impeachable offense and voted with their conscience and there may be a few Republicans who really thought that Trump did not do anything wrong. Imo they would both be wrong, but at least they were voting with the correct intentions. However most were just doing whatever had the best chance of retaining or gaining power and control because that is what all of this bull hockey is really about.”

 

Taking up the implied logic of your last sentence in the bolded section, sirdroseph, why would Democratic Senators and Congressmen vote for the impeachment and removal of Trump when they knew that Republican Senators would keep Trump in office anyway? If you answer that those Democratic politicians were voting against Trump only because they wanted to retain the support of their constituents who wanted Trump impeached and removed, isn't it also possible that those Democratic politicians felt obliged to vote in line with the majority of their constituents, the majority who wanted Trump out of office? 


 

Absolutely.  That is the way the system is designed and it worked because they did not make their case to the Senate and the American people enough to force the Republicans to go against their constituency.  Impeachment is serious business and should not be used just because the President was mean to you.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 7, 2020 - 2:08am



 steeler wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:
You're half right. Romney was not necessarily the worst, but he is in the same boat with just with a different take. I am not prepared to give adulation to any of them as you do Romney. But yes almost all of the Senators on both sides of the aisle do indeed lack integrity and true patriotism.
 
I know, I know . . . A pox on all their houses.

Not “true patriots” like you and I and other average Joes and Janes.




A pox on everyone’s houses!
 
Not at all.  Our founding fathers wisely made the litmus test for impeachment ambiguous and subjective to prevent the very serious process of removing a sitting President a rare and break only when needed type of scenario foreseeing the possible partisan divide of our system.   Therefore the alleged offense has to be blatant enough to move enough representatives to vote against their party and constituency in removing their President or in this case their choice off of the ballot in the next election ergo there must be extreme passion and concern for said representatives to go against their party and constituents in the vote.  It must be an extraordinary circumstance eliciting extraordinary passion to make this move.   My only point regarding Romney is why he was the only one so moved to do so.  Were it someone else like say Lamar Alexander, I would agree with you in the adulation because he truly does not have an axe to grind and has a history of fair mindedness and integrity.   Mittens not only does not have that, but he has a personal history and ax to grind with Trump therefore in my opinion Mr. Romney, as Dylan famously said to his audience in his first electric gig in Europe "I don't believe you."  You do believe him and praise him for his decision,  I think he is a petty and smarmy politician.   That is really all it is regarding Romney.   As far as the general notion of impeachment, I think Trump did exactly what he did, but in my opinion it is not an impeachable offense any more than banging an intern in the oval and lying about it under oath afterwards.   Inappropriate and illegal?  Sure, enough so to remove a sitting, very popular and up for re election President?  No.   You can disagree and that is fine, that is the way the founding fathers intended.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 4:08pm



 Isabeau wrote:


 kurtster wrote:
 

Nah. Just disagree. Dems aren't coming for all guns; dems like to hunt too. Funny thing though, we also enjoy Fishing, a sport more and more endangered by overfishing, natural disasters and increase in pollutants.

Jus saying your fearless tweeterleader has gutted many headwaters regulation much to the happiness of factories, farmers and agri-businesses. 

I used to like oysters. I used to like clean water. I used to like not having a President's unqualified family members appointed to his administration.

The Faux Spews Fish Hook of  "they're coming for all yer guns, lesbians will be sleeping on your doorstep and immigrants are a comin' for yer jobs ..."   while Agolf plays meaty-urologist with a magic marker ... is brainwashing by the billionaires. We are all amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw of you.
Next up on McConnell's wet dream: Cutting social security and medicare.



 



Trump's tax "reform" and his attacks on the ACA come to mind...


FWIW, Mitt Romney has shown his deep commitment to the Mormon church in the past. This 2012 WaPo piece details his actions as the chief Mormon authority in the Boston area in the 80s. Yet the piece also somewhat supports kurtster's suspicion of Romney: Mitt worked with the leader of the area's Spanish-speaking Mormon congregation to provide church funds to pay for lawyers assisting illegal immigrant Mormons. That's in stark contrast to his 2012 primary promises to enact policies that would promote "self-deportation" of illegal immigrants.

AFAICT though Romney has backed up his faith-oriented talk with a great deal of good works and actions. If  you want sanctimoniousness, check out Orrin Hatch.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 3:54pm



 R_P wrote:
 Isabeau wrote:
...amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw ... of you.
 
As long as others are getting screwed even more, he'll take one for the team.
 

Misery loves company. If they can 'own' the libs somehow that gets back at every woman that said no to a date, the jobs that abandoned them, the sight of an interracial or gay couple and people of color acting like they have the same freedoms as they do. Its an ancient patriarchal tactic of blaming the 'other,' anyone who isn't. just. like. them.

Howling and leaving claw marks as they are dragged into modernity. Same thing happened with Cro-magnon vs Neanderthal.  Few sentient women will mate with them.
Evolution is our friend.  
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 3:42pm

 Isabeau wrote:
...amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw ... of you.
 
As long as others are getting screwed even more, he'll take one for the team.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 3:34pm



 kurtster wrote:
 

Nah. Just disagree. Dems aren't coming for all guns; dems like to hunt too. Funny thing though, we also enjoy Fishing, a sport more and more endangered by overfishing, natural disasters and increase in pollutants.

Jus saying your fearless tweeterleader has just gutted last week, Obama's clean headwater regulations, much to the happiness of factories, farmers and agri-businesses. They can now dump runoff, fertilizers and toxins into wetlands, streams and other places that lead into other water sources ...  Cuppa Flint, Michigan anyone? 

I used to like oysters. I used to be able to trust Romaine lettuce. I used to like not having a President's unqualified family members appointed to his administration.

The Faux Spews Fish Hook of  "they're coming for all yer guns, lesbians will be sleeping on your doorstep and immigrants are a comin' for yer jobs ..."   while Agolf plays meaty-urologist with a magic marker ... is brainwashing by the billionaires. We are all amazed you don't see how your fear of change in society is voting for more of a screw ... of you.
Next up on McConnell's wet dream: Cutting social security and medicare.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 3:15pm

 steeler wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

Yes.
 

So you were questioning his faith. Trump did that, too, today at the National Prayer Conference, denouncing him for using religion as a crutch.
 
Ah, I see that you have since edited your post while I was composing this reply, no matter ...

Warning ... rant on.

If you want to put it that way. 

However, I see it more, as being a politician, trying to have his cake and eat it, too.  If Romney was secure in his faith, one would think it unnecessary to cite it as a justification for acting.  Senator Collins cited her conscience and stopped at that.  So Trump is correct.  He did use his faith as a crutch as I see it.

Based upon my limited religious indoctrination up to 7th grade that was conducted at Thousand Oaks Baptist Church in Berkeley, California which is across the street from Thousand Oaks Elementary School that I attended from K to 3, the same school which the terrified little girl Kamala Harris was forced to go to when the democrats foisted busing upon the city, I'll attempt to pose this metaphor.

Romney, being the politician that he first and foremost is, wants to be the hero, the holiest of the holy and shame everybody else with a tactic from the progressive left with his use of blatant virtue signaling. Romney was attempting to do what the wise old King Solomon wisely refrained from doing ... cut the baby in half.  In doing so, he sneeringly and self righteously raised himself above everyone else.

And the left is also trying to use Romney's "courageous and selfless act"™ to shame all the repubs in the same process, challenging their personal faith as nothing more than hollow, hypocritical and phony.

You or someone else cited Romney's overt and apparently genuine sincerity as proof enough of his religious convictions ...

I'll up the Groucho quote with this one ...

Politics is show business for ugly people.
Paul Begala

imho, you've been inside the Beltway too long ...

Now it's your turn, to tell me that I am delusional and hopelessly blinded by my knee jerk partisan ways.

rant off.

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 3:02pm



 steeler wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is completely lacking in integrity and extraordinarily petty, so much so that he voted to convict Trump even though it will bring a torrent of abuse upon him just to even — in Romney’s mind — some personal score with Trump. Pretty stupid, right?  He could have just voted with the rest of the Republicans and saved himself a lot of abuse. Would he then have been one of the few Republicans you said in an earlier post may have voted out of their legitimate belief that Trump did nothing deserving of impeachment or would he have fallen in, in your eyes , with the vast majority of Republicans who you say just voted their own partisan, self-interest? And you said earlier only a few Democrats may have voted on some principle but the rest — like the Republicans — voted only in their partisan self-interest? So, in your view, almost all of the Senators, on both sides of the aisle, lacked integrity and patriotism? But Romney was the worst?

Your earlier post:

“Look, there may have been some Democrats who truly believed what Trump did was an impeachable offense and voted with their conscience and there may be a few Republicans who really thought that Trump did not do anything wrong. Imo they would both be wrong, but at least they were voting with the correct intentions. However most were just doing whatever had the best chance of retaining or gaining power and control because that is what all of this bull hockey is really about.”

 

Taking up the implied logic of your last sentence in the bolded section, sirdroseph, why would Democratic Senators and Congressmen vote for the impeachment and removal of Trump when they knew that Republican Senators would keep Trump in office anyway? If you answer that those Democratic politicians were voting against Trump only because they wanted to retain the support of their constituents who wanted Trump impeached and removed, isn't it also possible that those Democratic politicians felt obliged to vote in line with the majority of their constituents, the majority who wanted Trump out of office? 


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 2:10pm



 kurtster wrote:

Yes.
 

So you were questioning his faith. Trump did that, too, today at the National Prayer Conference, denouncing him for using religion as a crutch.

This headline from Politico article today kind of says it all:

Trump attacks impeachment foes at National Prayer Breakfast for invoking faith



Next stop, Crazytown. End of the line
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 12:36pm



 sirdroseph wrote:
You're half right. Romney was not necessarily the worst, but he is in the same boat with just with a different take. I am not prepared to give adulation to any of them as you do Romney. But yes almost all of the Senators on both sides of the aisle do indeed lack integrity and true patriotism.
 
I know, I know . . . A pox on all their houses.

Not “true patriots” like you and I and other average Joes and Janes.




A pox on everyone’s houses!
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 12:30pm

 steeler wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is completely lacking in integrity and extraordinarily petty, so much so that he voted to convict Trump even though it will bring a torrent of abuse upon him just to even — in Romney’s mind — some personal score with Trump. Pretty stupid, right?  He could have just voted with the rest of the Republicans and saved himself a lot of abuse. Would he then have been one of the few Republicans you said in an earlier post may have voted out of their legitimate belief that Trump did nothing deserving of impeachment or would he have fallen in, in your eyes , with the vast majority of Republicans who you say just voted their own partisan, self-interest? And you said earlier only a few Democrats may have voted on some principle but the rest — like the Republicans — voted only in their partisan self-interest? So, in your view, almost all of the Senators, on both sides of the aisle, lacked integrity and patriotism? But Romney was the worst?

Your earlier post:

“Look, there may have been some Democrats who truly believed what Trump did was an impeachable offense and voted with their conscience and there may be a few Republicans who really thought that Trump did not do anything wrong. Imo they would both be wrong, but at least they were voting with the correct intentions. However most were just doing whatever had the best chance of retaining or gaining power and control because that is what all of this bull hockey is really about.”
 
You're half right.  Romney was not necessarily the worst, but he is in the same boat with just with a different take. I am not prepared to give adulation to any of them as you do Romney.  But yes almost all of the Senators on both sides of the aisle do indeed lack integrity and true patriotism.
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Feb 6, 2020 - 12:23pm



 sirdroseph wrote:

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is the only Republican US senator with integrity and patriotism.  Pretty extraordinary.  Who knows maybe a spot on Rushmore is in order.  Whoda thunk it.
 

Basically what you are saying is that Romney is completely lacking in integrity and extraordinarily petty, so much so that he voted to convict Trump even though it will bring a torrent of abuse upon him just to even — in Romney’s mind — some personal score with Trump. Pretty stupid, right?  He could have just voted with the rest of the Republicans and saved himself a lot of abuse. Would he then have been one of the few Republicans you said in an earlier post may have voted out of their legitimate belief that Trump did nothing deserving of impeachment or would he have fallen in, in your eyes , with the vast majority of Republicans who you say just voted their own partisan, self-interest? And you said earlier only a few Democrats may have voted on some principle but the rest — like the Republicans — voted only in their partisan self-interest? So, in your view, almost all of the Senators, on both sides of the aisle, lacked integrity and patriotism? But Romney was the worst?

Your earlier post:

“Look, there may have been some Democrats who truly believed what Trump did was an impeachable offense and voted with their conscience and there may be a few Republicans who really thought that Trump did not do anything wrong. Imo they would both be wrong, but at least they were voting with the correct intentions. However most were just doing whatever had the best chance of retaining or gaining power and control because that is what all of this bull hockey is really about.”
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