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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » illegal immigrants Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 101, 102, 103  Next
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Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:55pm



 kurtster wrote:

I read all of the fact checking articles on his speech.  No one contested the 4,000 dead.  They are dead, their deaths were not manufactured by Trump.  They are dead and not coming back.  People who were here illegally killed them.  That makes their deaths preventable.  More preventable than all the other deaths mentioned by you and others in an attempt to make illegal immigration seem ok and harmless.

How many have to die before you see a problem going on ?  What is your number ?
 

The point of what I posted: it is not the illegal immigrants that are the wave of terror in the nation. They are, comparatively, less worrisome. If you're just wanting to have a group of people to demonize, the answer is in front of you, if you're sincere:

Las Vegas Shooter:
Not an immigrant

Sandy Hook Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Parkland Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Charleston Church Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Aurora Movie Theater Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Gabby Giffords Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:45pm



 kurtster wrote:

I just love it when Americans put foreigners ahead of their fellow citizens in an effort of self serving virtue signaling.  These 4,000 aren't coming home to their loved ones anymore and you have no problem excusing their deaths as a fair exchange for your perception of social justice.
 

Oh My, the pearl clutching hyperbole! Like you really care about any of your fellow Americans. You just need an argument for your agenda. Aren't you a lover of open carry by any insane mofo with no background check? Spare me your manufactured 'concern.'  How many other special pie sections of americans are you so concerned about?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:42pm

 Steely_D wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

while you ignore the 4.000 killed by illegals in the past two years alone ?
 

I listen to facts, not teleprompter-dependent failed real estate salesmen who are just trying to rile their dwindling support base by peddling fear.

"As a percentage of their respective populations, there were 50 percent fewer criminal convictions of illegal immigrants than of native-born Americans in Texas in 2015. The criminal conviction rate for legal immigrants was about 85 percent below the native-born rate...

Thus, enforcing immigration law more harshly is an ineffective way to punish a population that is less likely to murder or commit crimes than native-born Americans. Illegal immigrants, non-citizens, and legal immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated, convicted, or arrested for crimes than native-born Americans are. "

and in this more recent report (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back explaining each one) summarizes nicely:

"Although immigration enforcement may have “backfired” by increasing the population of undocumented immigrants (Massey, Pren, and Durand, 2016), this policy blunder has not come at the expense of public safety...

...the weight of the evidence presented here and in supporting work challenges claims that unauthorized immigration endangers the public. At a minimum, the results of our study call into question claims that undocumented immigration increases violent crime. If anything, the data suggest the opposite."
 
I read all of the fact checking articles on his speech.  No one contested the 4,000 dead.  They are dead, their deaths were not manufactured by Trump.  They are dead and not coming back.  People who were here illegally killed them.  That makes their deaths preventable.  More preventable than all the other deaths mentioned by you and others in an attempt to make illegal immigration seem ok and harmless.

How many have to die before you see a problem going on ?  What is your number ?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:36pm

 Isabeau wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

while you ignore the 4.000 killed by illegals in the past two years alone ?
 

Oh Yes! I love a Game of 'Selective Morality."  Lessee, how many  Americans die every year from lack of health care? How many veterans have been dismissed and ignored by the Republicans?  Ooo, and how many American women die from poor hospital care from childbirth? No concern for the middle eastern moms and babes blown to bits by our bombs?
Oh yes, only white fetuses matter. Already born, of any color, not so much.

Stop pointing out squirrels. Especially while you're completely missing everything else.

 
I just love it when Americans put foreigners ahead of their fellow citizens in an effort of self serving virtue signaling.  These 4,000 aren't coming home to their loved ones anymore and you have no problem excusing their deaths as a fair exchange for your perception of social justice.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:34pm



 kurtster wrote:

while you ignore the 4.000 killed by illegals in the past two years alone ?
 

I listen to facts, not teleprompter-dependent failed real estate salesmen who are just trying to rile their dwindling support base by peddling fear.

"As a percentage of their respective populations, there were 50 percent fewer criminal convictions of illegal immigrants than of native-born Americans in Texas in 2015. The criminal conviction rate for legal immigrants was about 85 percent below the native-born rate...

Thus, enforcing immigration law more harshly is an ineffective way to punish a population that is less likely to murder or commit crimes than native-born Americans. Illegal immigrants, non-citizens, and legal immigrants are less likely to be incarcerated, convicted, or arrested for crimes than native-born Americans are. "

and in this more recent report (with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back explaining each one) summarizes nicely:

"Although immigration enforcement may have “backfired” by increasing the population of undocumented immigrants (Massey, Pren, and Durand, 2016), this policy blunder has not come at the expense of public safety...

...the weight of the evidence presented here and in supporting work challenges claims that unauthorized immigration endangers the public. At a minimum, the results of our study call into question claims that undocumented immigration increases violent crime. If anything, the data suggest the opposite."


You want to address Americans' safety? Address:

Las Vegas Shooter:
Not an immigrant

Sandy Hook Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Parkland Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Charleston Church Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Aurora Movie Theater Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Gabby Giffords Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Now join our voices in demanding that we address these (mass) murderers.









Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:24pm



 kurtster wrote:

while you ignore the 4.000 killed by illegals in the past two years alone ?
 

Oh Yes! I love a Game of 'Selective Morality!"  Lessee, how many  Americans die every year from lack of health care? How many veterans have been dismissed and ignored by the Republicans?  Ooo, and how many American women die from poor hospital care from childbirth? No concern for the middle eastern moms and babes blown to bits by our bombs?
Oh yes, according to the 'Selective Moral Majority' only white fetuses matter. Already born, of any color, not so much.

Stop the Squirrel pointing. Its paper thin and tiresome. Especially while you conveniently delete context and other facts.
Answering with yet another squirrel pointing does not count as an intelligent rebuttal.  Or are you only good at misdirection and Hannity Insanity pull-string talking points?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 5:00pm

 Steely_D wrote:


Now join our voices in demanding that we address these (mass) murderers.
 
while you ignore the 4.000 killed by illegals in the past two years alone ?
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 4:47pm



 kurtster wrote:

How about you wish his family a Merry Christmas ... from your open border heart ...

 
It's not too much to look for consistency. If you're thinking that we need to stop bad guys from hurting us then speak out on how to stop the

Las Vegas Shooter:
Not an immigrant

Sandy Hook Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Parkland Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Charleston Church Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Aurora Movie Theater Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Gabby Giffords Shooter:
Not an immigrant.

Now join our voices in demanding that we address these (mass) murderers.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 4:40pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

bump

 
How about you wish his family a Merry Christmas ... from your open border heart ...
.
.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 4:31pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:


 
bump
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 4:29pm

 islander wrote:


 black321 wrote:
Seems like a wall for DACA compromise is a fairly obvious solution.  What am i missing, other than we must continue to hate the left/right?  
 
The Democrats made that offer a year ago:

https://www.theatlantic.com/po...

also note at that time the Republicans controlled all 3 branches

 
The offer was phony. 

Money would only be authorized, not appropriated.  Spending is authorized all day long.

Money cannot be spent until it has been appropriated.  This is how Congress works, when it works, that is.

We have played this game on this matter for too many decades.

Authorize vs Appropriate

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 3:19pm



 haresfur wrote:


 islander wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
 

The center has no party, they occupy an apparent minority of both major parties
, but clearly not enough warrant a voice or have any meaningful impact.  The right has been on a steady march away from the center since Reagan (maybe before), and the left has taken notice of their success and followed suit.

In order to have a meaningful coalition, those on the right will have to admit that abortion is an occasionally necessary medical procedure, and those on the left will have to recognize (admit) that 'free' stuff is paid for by someone.  Donors from both sides will not see a profit in that scenario, so they won't support it (will probably act against it), and we'll go around the wheel again.
 
I suppose this is true since the center is somewhere to the left of the mainstream Democrats.

 

I think Richard Nixon is to the left of many mainstream democrats (that art loving environmentalist could never get elected today).  America in general has moved to the right - especially economically (at least on ideals), we are certainly a different land than so many others.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 3:16pm



 R_P wrote:
 islander wrote:
Abortion vs. free stuff
 
A pretty simplistic dichotomy. I'm pretty sure "the left" understands that nothing comes for free. It's about priorities.  Let's not forget that the right likes 'free' stuff as well, it just ends up in different pockets (corporate subsidies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc., etc.).
 

Sure, but the left dreams of an infinitely level field, and generally for the hard choices to be made by someone else.  In general I line up with the left on most topics, but like any other ideology, when taken too far (and without challenge) there are problems. I live in a place that has elected an openly socialist city counsel member and a highly liberal balance, and they are not really solving any great problems.

The republican argument that government is too large, too powerful, and not accountable has a lot of merit.  Too bad it comes with a lot of racism and general jerkheadedness.   
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:50pm

 haresfur wrote:
I suppose this is true since the center is somewhere to the left of the mainstream Democrats.
 
Blasphemy
!
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:49pm



 islander wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
 

The center has no party, they occupy an apparent minority of both major parties
, but clearly not enough warrant a voice or have any meaningful impact.  The right has been on a steady march away from the center since Reagan (maybe before), and the left has taken notice of their success and followed suit.

In order to have a meaningful coalition, those on the right will have to admit that abortion is an occasionally necessary medical procedure, and those on the left will have to recognize (admit) that 'free' stuff is paid for by someone.  Donors from both sides will not see a profit in that scenario, so they won't support it (will probably act against it), and we'll go around the wheel again.
 
I suppose this is true since the center is somewhere to the left of the mainstream Democrats.

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:29pm

 islander wrote:
Abortion vs. free stuff
 
A pretty simplistic dichotomy. I'm pretty sure "the left" understands that nothing comes for free. It's about priorities.  Let's not forget that the right likes 'free' stuff as well, it just ends up in different pockets (corporate subsidies, tax cuts for the wealthy, etc., etc.).
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:22pm

 Steely_D wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
 

Watching the gingham dogs and calico cats from a distance.

 
and when does the battle end, said the clock or the plate?
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:12pm



 black321 wrote:

Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
 

The center has no party, they occupy an apparent minority of both major parties, but clearly not enough warrant a voice or have any meaningful impact.  The right has been on a steady march away from the center since Reagan (maybe before), and the left has taken notice of their success and followed suit.

In order to have a meaningful coalition, those on the right will have to admit that abortion is an occasionally necessary medical procedure, and those on the left will have to recognize (admit) that 'free' stuff is paid for by someone.  Donors from both sides will not see a profit in that scenario, so they won't support it (will probably act against it), and we'll go around the wheel again.
Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 2:00pm



 black321 wrote:

Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
 

Watching the gingham dogs and calico cats from a distance.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 9, 2019 - 1:43pm

 islander wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Interesting.  But why then don't the democrats call his bluff and put it back on the table?  Or are they now just as addicted to the distractions?  
 

Don't know, but I do think it's funny that now we hear calls for civility and compromise and let's not be so divided. But that certainly wasn't the rallying cry for the last decade.

I personally don't think the wall is a very effective tool, but I also don't think 5 billion in our budget is worth the effort. I believe what we are seeing is the rational playing out of all the actions this administration has put forth over the last couple of years. I remember him saying "I'll be proud to shut down the government, I'll own it", so I think it is fine that he suffers with the mantle. 

Politicians haven't represented most 'regular' people in a long time. Maybe this cluster will bring a few more around. I doubt it, but I can hope.

 
Each side seems to be playing to their "base."  But where's the base that wants compromise, ruling from the center?  Watching the playoffs?  
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