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Index » Regional/Local » Europe » Ukraine Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 112, 113, 114 ... 121, 122, 123  Next
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Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar

Location: Gilead


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 7:27pm

 kurtster wrote:

I'll just add one more thought that I left out.

Yes, I no longer respect Obama as POTUS.  Respect is earned and lost.  Disrespect does not equal hatred.

Obama has earned my disrespect.  

 

 
I stand by my statement: your posts speak for themselves.
haresfur

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Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:44pm

 kurtster wrote:
This is the standard I use for judging Obama ...

I also know that nearly everyone who has participated in this thread the past couple of days holds Reagan in very low regard.

Reagan immediately cancelled his vacation to return to Washington to deal with this head on.  If you actually watch it, pay attention to the 9:50 mark and while watching, remember how primitive our technology was 21 years ago, yet so much was known immediately regarding the incident and was shared as soon as it became available. 
This is a clear and stark contrast to Obama ...  {#Cowboy} 

This is real leadership.

 

 
As near as I can tell, after listening to this, your main objection to Obama's reaction is that he was more succinct. Reagan's response accomplished nothing - he didn't get any of the actions he was demanding from the SU. That isn't a question of how I regard Reagan, that's a question of the outcome.  It's fair to argue that Reagan's policies had been increasing tension with the SU long before the incident and the US did have a plane in the area so it was appropriate for him to immediately get the facts together on whether that had a part in the tragedy.  That isn't the case for the Ukraine. Personally, I think it is a bit of a joke when any politician makes a big point of canceling a vacation or flying out to see a disaster unless they are actually going to take some concrete action to guide the immediate response - or at least figure out if there is some action they need to take.

The response options in the Ukraine are pretty limited.  A very strong response would possibly lead to a ground invasion by the Russians.  And the European/US response to that would likely be the same as to the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 i.e. nothing.  I think we all agree that Putin is a jerk and using Russian nationalism to increase his position internally.  This may indeed result in a resumption of the cold war. I have some slim hope that he will decide that this bunch aren't worth his trouble.  I also have some slim hope that the Europeans will reverse their hard line economic policies to help bring prosperity to the Ukraine - that probably could have prevented this whole mess and ultimately been cost-effective. 
 
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:21pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:

Your posts speak for themselves.

 
I'll just add one more thought that I left out.

Yes, I no longer respect Obama as POTUS.  Respect is earned and lost.  Disrespect does not equal hatred.

Obama has earned my disrespect.  

 
Red_Dragon

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Location: Gilead


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:14pm

 kurtster wrote:

That's mighty strong.  I don't hate anyone.  I strongly disagree with people, mostly politicians, yes.  But hate no.

That I repeatedly disagree equals hate ?  How does one talk about politics and current events and not discuss leaders and their roles ?

My bluntness at times is bluntness, not hate.  I will admit disgust but disgust is not hate.  Hate is a personal condition that poison's the mind and body.  It cheapens the value of life and tries to drag everyone and everything down with it.

I didn't shoot down a plane, but I'm talking about it, the players and the circumstances surrounding it. Two thirds of the country believes that Obama is taking this country in the wrong direction.  I recognize the fact that some don't think he is going far enough and others think he is going too far.  But the take away I get is that if you disagree with Obama, the only reason is because of hate.

Just how much of this country actually hates Obama ?  I don't know.  But be sure to know that I could not live with myself if my thoughts were born from hatred.  

Feel free to illustrate examples of my primal hatred.  I will consider your thoughts.  Maybe you're right and someone needs to point it out in no uncertain terms.  This is not a setup for a flame war, just a serious question.

 
Your posts speak for themselves.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:07pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
Kurt, your primal hatred of the current occupant of the white house is quite beyond the pale.

it's really quite disturbing. 
 
That's mighty strong.  I don't hate anyone.  I strongly disagree with people, mostly politicians, yes.  But hate no.

That I repeatedly disagree equals hate ?  How does one talk about politics and current events and not discuss leaders and their roles ?

My bluntness at times is bluntness, not hate.  I will admit disgust but disgust is not hate.  Hate is a personal condition that poison's the mind and body.  It cheapens the value of life and tries to drag everyone and everything down with it.

I didn't shoot down a plane, but I'm talking about it, the players and the circumstances surrounding it. Two thirds of the country believes that Obama is taking this country in the wrong direction.  I recognize the fact that some don't think he is going far enough and others think he is going too far.  But the take away I get is that if you disagree with Obama, the only reason is because of hate.

Just how much of this country actually hates Obama ?  I don't know.  But be sure to know that I could not live with myself if my thoughts were born from hatred.  

Feel free to illustrate examples of my primal hatred.  I will consider your thoughts.  Maybe you're right and someone needs to point it out in no uncertain terms.  This is not a setup for a flame war, just a serious question.


Red_Dragon

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Location: Gilead


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 5:29pm

Kurt, your primal hatred of the current occupant of the white house is quite beyond the pale.

it's really quite disturbing. 
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 5:20pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Yeah maybe if one of our current enemies shot down a planeload of people who got on that plane in New York City, Obama would have a reason to stick his nose in. But, as tragic as it is, it doesn't involve us, and our president is doing a decent job of not spouting a bunch of bellicose bluster the only outcome of which would be to "put up or shut up" over a skirmish we want no part of. But I don't know, maybe you do wish for a hot war with Russia. God knows we have a huge healthy military with nothing better to do right now, and we're swimming in budget surpluses that will only go to waste on health care and people and crap if we don't fight fight fight.

 
If the POTUS won't stand up to Putin who will ?

Our Ambassador to the UN said what needed to be said.  But it should have been the POTUS who said it, not a water carrier.  I infer no disrespect to our UN Ambassador.  I am just speaking in terms of roles and hierarchy.

I did see Zep's post while I was on the road today and he made some good points.

One point he raised was the difference between criticism of Obama driven by hate and legitimate criticism of Obama.

I see many attempts to equivocate certain terms with the term hate.  Outrage being one.  Outrage ≠ hate.  Hate is a codified crime.  How does outrage compare ?

What is legitimate criticism of Obama ?  Who is entitled to criticize Obama ?   Based upon the discussions, there doesn't seem to be any or any possible.  All's I have seen are people making excuses for him.

Lead from behind, right ...  What country / leader is going to be stupid enough to stand in front of Obama and believe him when he says I got your back ?

 Again ...  If the POTUS won't stand up to Putin who will ?   Who should ?  Who can ?   

Hint: the UN is not a correct answer.

The US has been totally exposed for what it now is, a feeble, toothless tirebiter on the world stage.   All because of a single plane shot down.  Peace through strength worked well for a long time, better than anything else, at least.  Now the US is about peace through weakness.

I'm not advocating a hot war with Russia at all.  I agree with you, it ain't our problem.  I had to read your comment about our military twice to get it.  Yes our military is worn down and humiliated.  Officers are getting layoff notices in the field during combat.  I'm with Ron Paul, bring our troops home, all of them, and assume a defensive posture on our borders and buy what we need from whoever has it and pay for it, not aim guns at the vendor nor judge them.  They can shoot down any plane but ours.  Shoot down one of ours ?   We'll just nuke you and say better not do it again.  Of course, I exaggerated some things a bit, but I hope you can sort through this and see my drift.
miamizsun

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:58am

 steeler wrote:
Always true.
 
if only we had semantic precision in the social sciences

{#Good-vibes}
sirdroseph

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 6:05am


steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 5:23am

 miamizsun wrote:

that depends on how one would define outrage
 
Always true.
miamizsun

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Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 5:22am

 steeler wrote:
Obama: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"

 
that depends on how one would define outrage

steeler

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Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 5:00am

Obama: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"
sirdroseph

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Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 19, 2014 - 4:15am

 ScottN wrote:
 sirdroseph wrote:
I am confused, you like a bill that is motivating parents to send their kids north at great peril or are you saying that this bill does not do that as the Democrats claim??
The "immigration" bill to which I refer is basically good legislation, imo,  that has led to unintended consequences. The legislation  must be modified, certainly.

As I understand it, there is a complex of reasons why this surge in child illegal entry has occurred. I leave that analysis to another time and thread.  I simply reject the Kurster stated claim that it is an "invasion" and an "Obama plot" or "Obama allowed", as if he alone is responsible.  That is far too simplistic.

Want an invasion example?  Visit Gaza.
 


 

Yea I pretty much agree with that.  Something has to be done to correct the root cause of the humanitarian crisis that is benefiting no one except for the human traffickers though and if it is this legislation it must be modified at the very least and quickly.{#Yes}


R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 4:02pm

 kurtster wrote:
Egypt as in Mubarak is not our guy, then he is and then he isn't.

Then he installs the Muslim Brotherhood and assures us that they are no threat to anyone ...

I'm talking about Obama's policy, not as to which authoritarian regimes the US supports. 
 
You were mentioning his weak foreign policy, which includes (and has often in the past included) financial/military support for authoritarian/far-right regimes when convenient (including Nuland's orchestrated love affair with Ukrainian fascists in Russia's hinterland). See the post below on Reagan or the history of the Middle American countries where some of them "invading" kids now come from ("I wanna be in Ahmericah"). Again, Guatamala was mentioned below in the article about the neo-Reagan's hagiography, but there's also Honduras and others. Chicks, roost. {#Mrgreen}
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 3:20pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

 


Egypt, back to the good old days of supporting dictators/coups and other genocidal maniacs in the region
 
Egypt as in Mubarak is not our guy, then he is and then he isn't.

Then he installs the Muslim Brotherhood and assures us that they are no threat to anyone ...

I'm talking about Obama's policy, not as to which authoritarian regimes the US supports.  
ScottN

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Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 3:17pm

 kurtster wrote:
This is the standard I use for judging Obama ...

REAGAN

  ..... 
You set the bar so low it is tough to know where to start as Reagan was, mostly, at best a figurehead, and at worst, criminal (Iran Contra on a long list).  By time Iran/Contra was being litigated and Reagan in possible legal peril, he was already suffering from dementia.  See RichardPrins for an eloquent dismantling of Reagan as hero and leader.  Imo, he was  perhaps well-intentioned, but largely a fraud, and as I said, occasionally criminal. He did play his role well.

You seem locked in your loop of conservative outrage and impervious to other perspectives...or what others regard as facts.  Good luck with that.


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 2:50pm

 kurtster wrote:

We will indeed see.  Reagan acted immediately, turning George Schultz loose immediately.  He spoke forcefully and in no uncertain terms.  You believed him and his commitment to act.  He did not make idle threats.  You had to take Reagan seriously, there was little wondering.  Whether you agreed with him or not, he did follow through on his words in matters like what we are discussing.

When it comes to foreign policy, can the same be said about Obama ?  One word, Egypt.

Reagan cancelled his vacation and worked on this immediately and gave that address 4 days later.  Obama barely acknowledged the event knowing enough during his first comments to at least condemn the act and the acknowledge that it was shot down, not blown up.  And then Obama went on to party in NYC .

4 days will be Monday.  We will see what Obama has done between now and then.  Comparing Obama to Reagan is certainly legitimate.

 

 

Hmmm. Link about Reagan acting immediately is rather bereft of summaries of actions taken.  Lots of tough talk in the September 5 address to nation.  I believe there were denouncements at the United Nations, and I believe some negotiations with Soviets were suspended similar to Soviets being exluded from G8 after Soviet  annexation of Crimea a few months back..


R_P

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Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 2:32pm

neo-kurtster wrote:
We will indeed see.  Reagan acted immediately, turning George Schultz loose immediately.  He spoke forcefully and in no uncertain terms.  You believed him and his commitment to act.  He did not make idle threats.  You had to take Reagan seriously, there was little wondering.  Whether you agreed with him or not, he did follow through on his words in matters like what we are discussing.

When it comes to foreign policy, can the same be said about Obama ?  One word, Egypt.

Reagan cancelled his vacation and worked on this immediately and gave that address 4 days later.  Obama barely acknowledged the event knowing enough during his first comments to at least condemn the act and the acknowledge that it was shot down, not blown up.  And then Obama went on to party in NYC . (...)
 

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983
Egypt, back to the good old days of supporting dictators/coups and other genocidal maniacs in the region, aside from Israel that is...
Secretary of State John Kerry voiced strong U.S. support for Egypt's new president and signaled that Washington will continue the flow of military aid in an American welcome of the post-coup government. (...)
And as for Reagan's "decisive leadership", see the time when the U.S. downed Iran Air 655 claiming they thought it was a F-14:
(...) At the White House, a spokesman said Mr. Reagan planned to remain at Camp David until noon Monday, when the President was scheduled to return to the capital. But other officials, including the national security adviser, Lieut. General Colin L. Powell, were said to be returning from their weekend holidays to handle the crisis. (...)
It should be clear who the fools are that are engaged in the fantasy and myth-making surrounding Ronnie Raygun:

(...) But which Reagan is being commemorated? The man or the myth? Conservatives, and especially neoconservatives, have deified him as the warrior president who won the cold war with a combination of a muscular foreign policy and a well-funded military. Progressives have dismissed him as a cowboy president, hellbent on confrontation with the Soviet Union and itching to nuke Moscow. (His humorous asides didn't help: on one occasion Reagan leaned into a microphone and joked: "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.")

But have both his supporters and his critics got him wrong? Neoconservatives, for instance, have long claimed that they are his ideological heirs. One of the most influential neocon texts, a 1996 essay in the journal Foreign Affairs by William Kristol and Robert Kagan, was titled "Toward a Neo-Reaganite Foreign Policy". The following year, in its founding "statement of principles", the now notorious neocon Project for the New American Century called for a "Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity".

The coalition's own neocon-in-chief – the education secretary, Michael Gove – writing in 2004, claimed that "it was because Ronald Reagan kept the faith that he achieved so much. What was that faith? In a word, neoconservatism."

It is a bogus claim. Reagan was no neocon. Unchallenged by progressives, rightwing hawks have rewritten history, leaving neocons like Kristol and Gove free to appropriate his name for their own belligerent ends.

Don't get me wrong. Reagan was no peacenik, either. A card-carrying cold warrior, he secretly sold weapons to Iran and Iraq, illegally funded the Nicaraguan Contras, provided aid to a Guatemalan army later accused by a UN-backed truth commission of carrying out "acts of genocide", and supported Osama bin Laden's mujahideen in Afghanistan, and Jonas Savimbi's Unita in Angola.

Nonetheless, he succeeded in avoiding a direct military confrontation. As the liberal US writer Peter Beinart argues in his book, The Icarus Syndrome: A History of American Hubris: "On the ultimate test of hawkdom – the willingness to send US troops into harm's way – Reagan was no bird of prey. He launched exactly one land war, against Grenada, whose army totalled 600 men. It lasted two days. And his only air war – the 1986 bombing of Libya – was even briefer." (...)
And "coincidentally" from the ilk of Robert Kagan we end up with Victoria "Fuck the EU" Nuland who, as we all know, was heavily involved in... you guessed it, Ukraine.
kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 1:51pm

 ScottN wrote:

Like I said earlier, irony is most enjoyed on a Friday.
In short, Reagan had days to prepare for the speech and considerable time (days) to consider statements and actions to be taken.

You, however, are criticizing Obama for smth that happened a very short time before he made an address on another topic.
We are now seeing, if we (you) choose to observe, what Obama and our allies will do with the same time to consider and coordinate actions.

 
We will indeed see.  Reagan acted immediately, turning George Schultz loose immediately.  He spoke forcefully and in no uncertain terms.  You believed him and his commitment to act.  He did not make idle threats.  You had to take Reagan seriously, there was little wondering.  Whether you agreed with him or not, he did follow through on his words in matters like what we are discussing.

When it comes to foreign policy, can the same be said about Obama ?  One word, Egypt.

Reagan cancelled his vacation and worked on this immediately and gave that address 4 days later.  Obama barely acknowledged the event knowing enough during his first comments to at least condemn the act and the acknowledge that it was shot down, not blown up.  And then Obama went on to party in NYC .

4 days will be Monday.  We will see what Obama has done between now and then.  Comparing Obama to Reagan is certainly legitimate.

 
Red_Dragon

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Location: Gilead


Posted: Jul 18, 2014 - 1:33pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Yeah maybe if one of our current enemies shot down a planeload of people who got on that plane in New York City, Obama would have a reason to stick his nose in. But, as tragic as it is, it doesn't involve us, and our president is doing a decent job of not spouting a bunch of bellicose bluster the only outcome of which would be to "put up or shut up" over a skirmish we want no part of. But I don't know, maybe you do wish for a hot war with Russia. God knows we have a huge healthy military with nothing better to do right now, and we're swimming in budget surpluses that will only go to waste on health care and people and crap if we don't fight fight fight.

 
USA! USA!
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