I recall someone providing mild apologetics for Project 2025 through (obsessive-compulsive) downplaying. Trump and his minions were just denying the obvious.
You're simultaneously rejecting binary politics and trying to force the argument into a binary.
You could talk to the Mitt Romneys of the world, but you'll need to stop calling them Nazis. There are a lot of disaffected Republicans out there, but if you just prop them up to denounce Trump like Liz Cheney and ignore everything else they have to say you won't build a real alliance.
You could focus the economic argument on the fact that trade is good, actually, that tariffs are taxes paid by the buyer and cause prices to rise with no net benefit, and that pointlessly antagonizing trading partners to make a populist appeal is counterproductive...but that means rejecting policy positions of just a few years ago.
You could point out that weaponizing the mechanisms of government against political and social rivals is tyrannical but...oh, right.
Yeah, y'all got work to do. That 40% rejected the left too. Being...more left won't bring them into the fold. Leaning harder into tribalism won't attract people who aren't in the tribe.
I know enough not to put you into the republican bucket. I'd appreciate the same. I'm not the y'all you are referring to. If there are only the two choices that we have presented, yes, I'll support the side that is not immoral and trampling human rights. The reality is I'm working hard to opt out. I'm doing all I can do divest of the systems that are fundamentally broken. I'm happy to opt back in if things get back on track, but for now I'm going where things are working. Call me bandwagonesque (great CD btw) if you want, but I'll put my efforts and resources where they will match my values and morals. I know a lot of people can't do that, but if more that could do it would, then there would be a lot more incentive to fix the broken system.
I don't have an answer. But I'm not going to lecture side that is against deporting people to prison camps for their failing to appeal to those cheering sending people to prison camps. Your angst at them for failing to provide a good alternative is correct, but your outrage is pointed the wrong direction.
As to what will work and appeal to people, I think it's yet to be seen. More left is what's going to be tested this November. If that works, more left is going to have some work to do to prove itself. But if Mamdani can get elected and then manage to solve some problems for real people (big ifs on both parts), then the rest of the establishment* better look out, there are some working examples.
*deep state, both sides, corporate overlords, take your pick.
This is much like the I don't want a chicken salad sandwich, so I'll order the shit platter refrain. Yes, both sides have their issues, but one side has moved rapidly away from their principles - The party's nominees from just a few years ago are persona non grata at the table. Mitt, who was a genuine conservative with some reasonable ideas about governance, has been sent to the wilderness. Yes, the democrats are also corporate owned and largely ineffective (by design), but I'm not willing to say "okay, might as well have the radical deconstruction of all our values, because you didn't give me rainbows and lollipops".
The whole idea of right vs. left is pretty old school at this point. We now have good faith and bad faith. The two teams are not playing the same game. Unfortunately, this game has real world impacts for a lot of people. 40% of the people have given up on even participating. This is no longer governance, it is some odd form of feudalism where the goal is pillage instead of divine rule. When we get to the inevitable ugly revolution, I'll feel very bad for everyone involved, but I'll feel distain for those who actively called for the ugliest parts of it. And I won't blame those who land under the boot because they didn't find a better place to put their neck.
You're simultaneously rejecting binary politics and trying to force the argument into a binary.
You could talk to the Mitt Romneys of the world, but you'll need to stop calling them Nazis. There are a lot of disaffected Republicans out there, but if you just prop them up to denounce Trump like Liz Cheney and ignore everything else they have to say you won't build a real alliance.
You could focus the economic argument on the fact that trade is good, actually, that tariffs are taxes paid by the buyer and cause prices to rise with no net benefit, and that pointlessly antagonizing trading partners to make a populist appeal is counterproductive...but that means rejecting policy positions of just a few years ago.
You could point out that weaponizing the mechanisms of government against political and social rivals is tyrannical but...oh, right.
Yeah, y'all got work to do. That 40% rejected the left too. Being...more left won't bring them into the fold. Leaning harder into tribalism won't attract people who aren't in the tribe.
Start by reading the words people write in criticism. Like...all the way thru. Instead of instinctively trying to counterpunch what you think they must have meant, read the actual words and try to understand the argument. I mean, for a start.
Republican behavior is on them. The fact that they were able to ride the resentment your party's behavior engendered into power is on you.
We didn't get here because your tribe didn't fight dirty enough, we got here because our politics is tribal and you don't offer an alternative to that. Both incumbent parties are utterly unprincipled and care only about attaining power. They wield it ruthlessly against political rivals and feed the sense of grievance of their constituencies. The constant stream of dishonesty not only insults the intelligence of those you need to convince to vote for you, it enables the very same dishonesty among your rivals.
What do you do? That's a project of years. Sure, purge some old farts. Your party has eaten its young for a very long time. This is not a strategy but a consequence of valuing power over everything elseâincumbents have more access to power. But that alone won't be enough.
Republicans invested in groups reaching out to young people. That took decades to bear fruit. Y'all didn't have the patience for that when the very institutions of education were doing the heavy lifting for you, but they weren't training activists. They were enforcing a rigid orthodoxy, insisting on conformity rather than empowerment. You raised a generation obedient to that orthodoxy and unwilling to challenge it, but also incapable of responding to challenges because they had never heard one.
The few young firebrands you have are adherents to ancient, discredited, crackpot ideologies. They are as much objects of ridicule as the worst of the GOP.
If this doesn't sound constructive, doesn't sound like a recipe for your tribe to sweep back into power it's beacuse it isn't. I don't want your tribe back in power. I want an end to tribalism. If your party can't rise above it they deserve to go the way of the Whigs.
This is much like the I don't want a chicken salad sandwich, so I'll order the shit platter refrain. Yes, both sides have their issues, but one side has moved rapidly away from their principles - The party's nominees from just a few years ago are persona non grata at the table. Mitt, who was a genuine conservative with some reasonable ideas about governance, has been sent to the wilderness. Yes, the democrats are also corporate owned and largely ineffective (by design), but I'm not willing to say "okay, might as well have the radical deconstruction of all our values, because you didn't give me rainbows and lollipops".
The whole idea of right vs. left is pretty old school at this point. We now have good faith and bad faith. The two teams are not playing the same game. Unfortunately, this game has real world impacts for a lot of people. 40% of the people have given up on even participating. This is no longer governance, it is some odd form of feudalism where the goal is pillage instead of divine rule. When we get to the inevitable ugly revolution, I'll feel very bad for everyone involved, but I'll feel distain for those who actively called for the ugliest parts of it. And I won't blame those who land under the boot because they didn't find a better place to put their neck.
This is a good political discussion (for a change). If you are put off, canât handle it, feel the emotions bubbling to the topâ¦then the issue is more with you than what you are fighting against. Chubby throws out a diversion, like this innocuous sweeney thing, and people suck it up. Why not walk right by like you would if you saw dog shit on the road?
I found the left as much as the right contributed to MAGA, led by the left media. At a time (back in 2020) when the right media where dismissing trump, the left put him in the headlines every chance they could, and their readers/viewers sucked it up. It got him attention and votesâ¦just like the sweeney story is sure to sell jeans. Who doesnât enjoy a good train wreck? Donât blame the politicians/parties as much as the people. You get the leadership you deserve.
I donât want another Trump or Bushâ¦or another Biden, Clinton or even Obama, even if they are the lesser of two evils.
Start by reading the words people write in criticism. Like...all the way thru. Instead of instinctively trying to counterpunch what you think they must have meant, read the actual words and try to understand the argument. I mean, for a start.
Republican behavior is on them. The fact that they were able to ride the resentment your party's behavior engendered into power is on you.
We didn't get here because your tribe didn't fight dirty enough, we got here because our politics is tribal and you don't offer an alternative to that. Both incumbent parties are utterly unprincipled and care only about attaining power. They wield it ruthlessly against political rivals and feed the sense of grievance of their constituencies. The constant stream of dishonesty not only insults the intelligence of those you need to convince to vote for you, it enables the very same dishonesty among your rivals.
What do you do? That's a project of years. Sure, purge some old farts. Your party has eaten its young for a very long time. This is not a strategy but a consequence of valuing power over everything elseâincumbents have more access to power. But that alone won't be enough.
Republicans invested in groups reaching out to young people. That took decades to bear fruit. Y'all didn't have the patience for that when the very institutions of education were doing the heavy lifting for you, but they weren't training activists. They were enforcing a rigid orthodoxy, insisting on conformity rather than empowerment. You raised a generation obedient to that orthodoxy and unwilling to challenge it, but also incapable of responding to challenges because they had never heard one.
The few young firebrands you have are adherents to ancient, discredited, crackpot ideologies. They are as much objects of ridicule as the worst of the GOP.
If this doesn't sound constructive, doesn't sound like a recipe for your tribe to sweep back into power it's beacuse it isn't. I don't want your tribe back in power. I want an end to tribalism. If your party can't rise above it they deserve to go the way of the Whigs.
What else do you expect from a two-party first-past-the-post system?
Unfortunately I think the problems in the US go far deeper than merely the form of its political system. You seem to have lost the broad consensus about what it means to be American
And how does blaming Democrats for the behavior of the Republicans productive to solving the problem? I can face the reality and would appreciate it if you wouldn't splice my comment into only those statements you have issues with.
I think we should get rid of the ancients in the party, beginning with Schumer. And we should gerrymander the hell out of blue state maps - fight fire with fire.
Yes, they've made mistakes, I'll admit that. But again, going FORWARD ...
Do tell what YOU think Democrats should do to solve the problem? And why blaming them will help?
Start by reading the words people write in criticism. Like...all the way thru. Instead of instinctively trying to counterpunch what you think they must have meant, read the actual words and try to understand the argument. I mean, for a start.
Republican behavior is on them. The fact that they were able to ride the resentment your party's behavior engendered into power is on you.
We didn't get here because your tribe didn't fight dirty enough, we got here because our politics is tribal and you don't offer an alternative to that. Both incumbent parties are utterly unprincipled and care only about attaining power. They wield it ruthlessly against political rivals and feed the sense of grievance of their constituencies. The constant stream of dishonesty not only insults the intelligence of those you need to convince to vote for you, it enables the very same dishonesty among your rivals.
What do you do? That's a project of years. Sure, purge some old farts. Your party has eaten its young for a very long time. This is not a strategy but a consequence of valuing power over everything else—incumbents have more access to power. But that alone won't be enough.
Republicans invested in groups reaching out to young people. That took decades to bear fruit. Y'all didn't have the patience for that when the very institutions of education were doing the heavy lifting for you, but they weren't training activists. They were enforcing a rigid orthodoxy, insisting on conformity rather than empowerment. You raised a generation obedient to that orthodoxy and unwilling to challenge it, but also incapable of responding to challenges because they had never heard one.
The few young firebrands you have are adherents to ancient, discredited, crackpot ideologies. They are as much objects of ridicule as the worst of the GOP.
If this doesn't sound constructive, doesn't sound like a recipe for your tribe to sweep back into power it's beacuse it isn't. I don't want your tribe back in power. I want an end to tribalism. If your party can't rise above it they deserve to go the way of the Whigs.
The olâ thereâs bad people on both sides, equivalence.
In this case there are. The Republican party is now the Trump party and everything they do and say is a reflection of him. In the mind of MAGA this is the strong brand they want to be associated with. Even when they act like Nazis and Fascists.
The Democrats at a time when they could make hay with the voting public have a badly damaged brand. They let their infrastructure deteriorate and don't have the capacity to meet the moment.
End result is a rudderless society in decline with no real way to get back on track with any urgency. And the band played on.....
I think the issues of social breakdown are critical to understanding how we got here, (and by we I mean the entire western world , not just the US.) so, yes, it pays to take a step back from the partisan diatribes and look at wider issues.
<snip>
btw, Google's AI came up with these factors when I typed in "common factors in the breakdown of civil society. It's actually not too bad:
1. Erosion of Trust and Reciprocity:
Diminished social bonds:A decline in shared norms and moral understandings can weaken the bonds of trust and reciprocity that hold society together.
Lack of mutual understanding:When different groups within society fail to understand or recognize each other's perspectives, it can lead to polarization and conflict, undermining social cohesion.
Weakening of social capital:A decline in social capital, which refers to the networks and relationships that enable collective action, can make it harder for civil society to address societal challenges.
2. Power Imbalances and Inequality:
Unequal relationships:When power is concentrated in the hands of a few, it can create a sense of exclusion and marginalization among other groups, hindering their ability to participate fully in civil society.
Disadvantageous commissioning models:If public bodies or other institutions structure their engagement with civil society in ways that disadvantage certain groups or organizations, it can exacerbate existing inequalities and limit civil society's impact.
3. Bureaucracy and Lack of Transparency:
Bureaucratic and siloed structures:Complex and inflexible bureaucratic structures can hinder effective collaboration and communication within civil society, making it harder to respond to emerging challenges.
Lack of transparency and accountability:When civil society organizations or public bodies lack transparency and accountability, it can erode public trust and make it harder to hold them accountable for their actions.
4. Resource Constraints and Funding Challenges:
Limited funding opportunities:When civil society organizations struggle to secure adequate funding, it can limit their capacity to operate effectively and pursue their goals.
Changing funding climate:Shifts in the funding landscape, such as increased restrictions on foreign funding, can also pose challenges to civil society's sustainability.
5. Internal Governance Issues:
Weak internal structures:Civil society organizations that lack strong internal governance structures, transparency, or democratic decision-making processes may struggle to maintain public trust and effectiveness.
Limited public participation:If civil society organizations fail to engage the public in meaningful ways, it can weaken their legitimacy and impact.
6. External Factors:
Political and legal restrictions:Governments may impose restrictions on civil society's ability to operate freely, such as through laws that limit freedom of speech or association.
Economic crises:Economic downturns can exacerbate social inequalities and create new challenges for civil society to address, particularly for vulnerable populations.
7. Norms and Values:
Erosion of shared values:A decline in shared norms and values, such as respect for the rule of law or tolerance for diversity, can weaken the foundations of civil society.
Rise of extremism and intolerance:The spread of extremism, intolerance, and xenophobia can undermine social cohesion and create an environment where civil society struggles to thrive.
Location: At the dude ranch / above the sea Gender:
Posted:
Aug 4, 2025 - 6:25pm
Proclivities wrote:
I agree that the overuse of the term "fascist" has rendered it essentially meaningless - or at least "diluted" as was suggested in the earlier post you responded to. This is also true of other terms like "genocide", "gaslighting", or "woke", etc.. And it does seem like alarmist, "breathless hyperbole" to use the term now, even though it does apply to the current administration in numerous ways. There were even frequent posts in here calling Clinton and Obama and their policies "fascist" (usually mysteriously spelled as "facist").
Still, I'm not sure the left has to own full culpability for the current state of our politics (though you didn't really state that) - there are many factors and the right had a lot to do with it.
See also:
âAbuseâ
âGluten intoleranceâ
âOCDâ
âNarcissistâ
The left really needs to own it culpability for the current state of our politics. What do you call an actual Nazi when you've called anyone you don't like a Nazi* for years? Right-wing edgelords have taken to ironically adopting Nazi imagery, language, and policies because it provokes the hysterical reaction that numbs the public to what's happening.
Stephen Miller is directing policy in the White House for the second time. We have masked secret police sweeping the streets to imprison anyone they want without trial. But you already called George W. Bush and John McCain fascists; now that it actually applies using it just sounds like more breathless hyperbole. ...
I agree that the overuse of the term "fascist" has rendered it essentially meaningless - or at least "diluted" as was suggested in the earlier post you responded to. This is also true of other terms like "genocide", "gaslighting", or "woke", etc.. And it does seem like alarmist, "breathless hyperbole" to use the term now, even though it does apply to the current administration in numerous ways. There were even frequent posts in here calling Clinton and Obama and their policies "fascist" (usually mysteriously spelled as "facist").
Still, I'm not sure the left has to own full culpability for the current state of our politics (though you didn't really state that) - there are many factors and the right had a lot to do with it.
If you can't face the reality of how we got here you will never be part of getting us out of here.
We got here because a bunch of knuckle draggers thought the idea of trump hurting 'others' sounded pretty great.
There certainly wasn't a bunch of right wing hand wringing in 2020 because the right was overusing the term 'woke' (they were). And blaming that for the reason Biden was elected.
Our politics have devolved. There are reasons for that on both sides. But the fact that we have masked people running around violating peoples rights is because people voted for someone who had very public fascist tendencies. The guy said he wouldn't be a dictator, except for the times he might be a dictator very publicly. The fault lies with the people who believed that was a joke, not the people who said "yeah, that's a fascist".
If you can't face the reality of how we got here you will never be part of getting us out of here.
And how does blaming Democrats for the behavior of the Republicans productive to solving the problem? I can face the reality and would appreciate it if you wouldn't splice my comment into only those statements you have issues with.
I think we should get rid of the ancients in the party, beginning with Schumer. And we should gerrymander the hell out of blue state maps - fight fire with fire.
Yes, they've made mistakes, I'll admit that. But again, going FORWARD ...
Do tell what YOU think Democrats should do to solve the problem? And why blaming them will help?
Name calling and labeling is the M.O. of the Felon Prez. The left is not responsible for the BEHAVIOR of Republicans or the FP.
Who IS responsible? SCOTUS. CONGRESS. CITIZEN'S UNITED. RABID GERRYMANDERING. McConnell, Fox Spews, et al.
These are the things that got the inmates running the asylum.
Don't blame Democrats or the Left for the ACTIONS of 'Christian Conservatives.' They are not the ones kidnapping people, redrawing maps or blowing a hole in International trade.
If you can't face the reality of how we got here you will never be part of getting us out of here.
Name calling and labeling is the M.O. of the Felon Prez. The left is not responsible for the BEHAVIOR of Republicans or the FP.
Who IS responsible? SCOTUS. CONGRESS. CITIZEN'S UNITED. RABID GERRYMANDERING. McConnell, Fox Spews, et al.
These are the things that got the inmates running the asylum.
Don't blame Democrats or the Left for the ACTIONS of 'Christian Conservatives.' They are not the ones kidnapping people, redrawing maps or blowing a hole in International trade.
(I see "Distraction Jackson" has weighed in with his usual Squirrel Fetch tactic. )
Now, let's discuss/and list the name-calling vomit from the petulant Five year old Felon Prez, who fired the BLS chairman because he didn't like the numbers ...
)