NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote: I have no bone to pick with anybody here.

The only things that irks me is people who don't use cruise control on the freeway, lazy people or ones who claim to be environmentally correct and spew mung and spoo more than anybody else. 

I tend to stay away from these political forums because you can yak all you want, and you won't change peoples opinions one little bit.

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

You are exactly correct. Unfortunately at least 1/3rd of the country is happy with this as long as it makes 'the liberals' unhappy. This is also the same group that doesn't care about any topic unless it impacts them personally. Well, we're about to reach the point where it will impact them personally. Hopefully we can get through the pain quickly. 

 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:

Seriously, none of you guys should be fighting each other.

I can't say this often enough. But this is no longer about the Republican / Democrat divide. I would dearly love to see the old Republican Party come back.
The current Republican Party has been hijacked and its leadership is out to destroy the strength of the United States. Why do I think that?

Just look at some of its recent policies. (cutting and pasting from the Trump thread here)

He is destroying government-assisted scientific research, which has always been a vital ingredient of American research and innovation. Why is he doing this?
He is destroying public service institutions, like NOAA, the National Parks, NPR and FEMA. Why ?
He is introducing tariffs that are wrecking the US economy and strangling the world economy to boot. Why?
He has set up goon squads, ostensibly to round up illegal immigrants, but their overreach and lack of accountability is widely documented. Why such a visible display of wanton violence and lack of accountability?
He has eroded all remaining faith in political and state institutions. Why?
He has basically destroyed faith in NATO and destroyed US soft power by shutting down US AID. Why?

First conclusion:
There is a consistency and rigor to the above policies that goes way beyond Trump's faculties. He couldn't follow a straight line to the bathroom. 
No, this program is steered by far more sinister minds than his. Trump just wants to be dictator and to be that he goes along willingly with what he is told

Second:
NONE of these policies are designed to strengthen America but WEAKEN it. 

Third:
There is a very obvious mannerism to Trump's politicking, namely of blaming the other side of precisely the very thing you are most guilty of yourself. 
Pedophile rings? check
Corruption? check
Russian influence? check
Government overreach? check
.. the list goes on.

Now this admittedly common propaganda tool is straight out of the FSB playbook. If you have been following the Ukraine war you'll see the Russians do this ALL the time. 
Trump's conscious destruction of US norms and standards has the FSB strategy of destabilising a foreign government stamped all over it. They WANT you to fight each other. It's death by a thousand cuts, slowly eroding your trust in each other.

And if you are still not convinced, then explain to me how and why Trump is inviting Putin to Alaska (still considered to be Russian's rightful territory by many Russian nationalists). 
Apart from the trivial fact that there is an international arrest warrant out for Putin's human rights violations, this is a MASSIVE boost to Putin's domestic image and does NOTHING for the US, if anything just weakens its perception on the international stage even more. So, why do it?

Now, if Trump supporters are still not convinced and would rather have Trump the Russians and their sympathisers in charge instead of having to work with all the sparkle-farters that make up the Democrat party, then think very carefully of what you are wishing for. It's not going to be a return to some Arcadian age like the sixties. It's rather going to be a fast track to hell. 

If you love America, which I am sure all of us here do, including me and I'm not even American, then it is high time to stand up and defend it. Do it in the name of the (old) Republican Party. Do it in the name of rock and roll. Do it in the name of your fantastic natural wonders. Do it the name of having a working economy where you can buy parts for your truck. 

And if you think I'm exaggerating, just look at rural Russia, for that is the course you are on.

 islander wrote:
Oh brother.

 islander wrote:

And while we are here arguing who threw the first stone in the "You're a jerk" battle, One party just took a SECOND step in federalizing police forces against the populace using a false narrative.  Meanwhile the 2nd amendment is for fighting tyrants, small government, don't tread on me crowd is strangely silent.  

The Democrats have major issues. The republicans, and those that continue to support them are quickly becoming unAmerican.

 islander wrote:
Agree with Black321 on the great discussion, sharp insight and concerns in this thread.  We peeps certainly won't solve anything here, but it's a good thing to begin dialogue and clear up misunderstandings and misjudgments. We're all going to have to survive this somehow.

Of hands and cities

Antiurbanism
Fascists also pandered to antiurban feelings. The Nazis won most of their electoral support from rural areas and small towns. In Nazi propaganda the ideal German was not an urban intellectual but a simple peasant, and uprooted intellectualism was considered a threat to the deep, irrational sources of the Volk soul. Jews were often portrayed—and therefore condemned—as quintessential city dwellers.

 black321 wrote:

This, a thousand times over. It's a major reason why I say I'm not a Democrat. It's also why I say if the two options are well-intentioned, but misguided/unrealistic and immoral, mean spirited, and bigoted, then I'm on the side of well-intentioned and misguided. 

Unfortunately, I see the two sides fighting each other relentlessly and they have now reached a point where there is so much acrimony that I'm not sure there is a good path back. Lots of people (the middle, where I believe I live) have played peacemaker/ reluctant enabler for years now and we've gotten to a very bad state. The only way I see to get people back to recognizing that compromise is important, is to let some really heinous crap play out. 30% or so is cheering for this, so I say let them have it. Sorry to everyone who's going to suffer through it, but it's bandage ripping time.  I hope we come out the other side with a sharp pain, and not a major hemorrhage. 

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
lots of good Sunday morning insight, thanks. 

one thing on inflation—at least here in the U.S.—is that it was driven initially by massive government spending(a) and, more significantly, by the impact of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine on global commodity prices. Domestically, it lingered primarily because of shelter costs, including rising home prices, interest rates, and rents. However, with roughly 65% of U.S. households owning a home and resale activity remaining light since the pandemic, much of the country was insulated from that lingering inflation, having already purchased homes and locked in historically low mortgage rates in the 3% range.

one thing about the Democrats, their policies are often well-intentioned but often misguided/unrealistic for the average voter, which fuel the erroneous arguments from the right. For example, in Denver, an initiative was adopted years ago to transition off fossil fuels and electrify all heating and air conditioning. However, the directive lacked clarity, leaving many HOAs and building owners struggling to adapt. The costs were prohibitive for the average condo owner or homeowner, and the existing infrastructure lacked the capacity to handle the increased load. As a result, the initiative has largely stalled. So, the broader issue is that Democrats often base their initiatives on science without fully understanding the underlying science...reflecting a central problem in politics, where complex, science-rooted challenges are oversimplified in policy.

(a) edit: and unprecedented shift in demand for goods at a time when supply chains were struggling.

 Lazy8 wrote:

that's why I crossed out "those people are assholes." 
While the decision was asinine (this wasn't just a difference over liberal v. conservative politics), one ought not draw the same conclusion about the person. 

 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:

I'm not offended. Just noting that yes,  you are out here doing the same lumping that you are accusing everyone else of.  It's all a two way street. 

 islander wrote: I'm sorry you took offense to my statement.

I could be like almost everyone here and lump them into some sort of group that I hate. 

But if fascism ever comes to America, it'll come in the name of liberalism. And what is fascism? Fascism is private ownership, private enterprise, but total government control and regulation. Well, isn't this the liberal philosophy?

Ronald Reagan

ok, it's early Sunday morning and I still have a lot of work to do (been working a lot lately, which explains my presence here I guess) There's a lot to go through, but I'll keep it brief. These are my opinions and I should really spend the time to back them up with references but, hey ho. 

1. The US had arguably the worst handling of COVID in the world but IIRC bounced back better than ALL the rest of the world. Keynsian policies can work. They have worked for decades. 
The Dems in the US love them and use them all the time, usually in a spending spree in their first term and more conservative policy in the second term to rein in the deficit. This explains their record on the deficit which outperforms the Republicans.  If you don't like government intervention in the economy I guess you are going to hate it but there is no denying its impact. I'm betting that Biden was planning on a second term to do precisely what the Dems always do. EDIT:  I'll take your point that the first package of government stimulus was initiated under Trump, but the rest of it was very on brand for Democrat governments and IMO was the reason for the rapid post-Covid rebound. 

2. I'll also take exception to the Dems being arrogant and out of touch. Undoubtedly many are. the deplorables statement etc. But Walz (admittedly a teacher, oh the horror), Buttigieg (oh but he's intelligent AND gay), and shock, horror AOC, come from a base that is, let's say, world's away from wealth. The Dems are a huge and very disparate party. You can't lump them all in to one pithy statement like that, just as you can't lump all Trump voters under the epithet of "deplorable"... and they also poll close to 50% of the country. So, out of touch? Well, not exactly.
I'm guessing your greatest beef is the two-dimensional nature of politics but that has more to do with a) politics per se and b) your two-party system, which amplifies it. 

3. not really relevant to the discussion, but, yes, I'm not American and don't live in the States. I nevertheless pipe up because there are a lot of parallels to the States in western democracies at the moment, as we are battling similar problems. We don't have MAGA here in Germany, but we do have the AfD. They are polling at somewhere around 20-25%, which in our system is massive and makes them the second strongest party after the CDU/CSU the center right party. The entire left wing has been decimated. I don't know any MAGA? True but I know and interact with Putin-loving  AFD supporters on a regular basis. In my direct neighborhood I have three AfD supporters, all of whom are wealthy and successful. They hate immigrants, me excepted, of course, because I'm a "good one" 

Then right across the way I have a conspiracy theorist Anti-vaxxer. There's another one down the street. We talk.  More than I would like. But we talk. 

4. Also unrelated, but the comment on "you don't get to complain about a policy and then keep it" made me smile, as that happens all the time. The Green Party lost a massive amount of votes because when they were in the ruling coalition in the last government they introduced a law phasing out fossil-fuel heating in homes in favour of electrically-powered heat pumps in well insulated homes. Precisely the kind of ramming policy down people's throats that you were referring to in the States. The thing is, the policy came with loads of subsidies attached to relieve any burden on poorer home owners and, guess what., it hasn't been repealed by the new government because it is basically a good thing to do if we want to get away from oil. 
Another unrelated point, natural gas. This too, you might be surprised to learn, was prior to 2022 a core element of the Green Party policy during the transition to renewables. I'm also working on a project (among many) that. is the North Field project in Qatar. Natural gas is doing fine. We don't need fracking to get it. And if we are serious about climate change, we also need to move away from gas once sufficient renewable resources are in place.. but all of this belongs in another thread. 

5.  Lastly, no one is mentioning the destabilising role played by the FSB, but I would argue they have played a massive role in creating distrust and scepticism. They did not create the problems we are facing, but they are expert at fomenting enough distrust to tilt elections towards Russian-friendly parties. This doesn't have to be much because most elections are close as it is.  My take, massively simplified, is that the electorate, faced with the shrill media coverage of global warming, diversity and inclusion, weak economic performance, ageing economies, unfunded pension commitments (Germany is a pay-as-you go system), etc. have had enough fear whipped up in them to fall prey to the you-tubers, influencers, hot-heads, etc. that have got us to where we are now.  

It is mostly fear fuelling this ship. But personally, the older I get the more confident I feel about our ability to change. When I started life out industry was just dumping toxic waste. When I worked at Greenpeace back in the day, I was told, "we sell subscriptions using pictures of baby seals getting clubbed to death, but actually we want to stop industrial toxic waste." Well, look at us now. I frequently translate environmental impact reports for insurers. Industry now, easily outperforms your average consumer, when it comes to minimising waste.  And fossil fuel consumption in Europe is trending in the right direction and has been for years.


PS 6. Inflation was global and triggered by the massive hike in oil prices associated with the sanctions against Russia (and supply chain disruptions caused by Covid) and much less to do with government stimulus. At least, that is my hypothesis.. We could test this by measuring inflation in countries that didn't have such massive stimulus packages. If I get some time, I'll go hunting.

PPS.. in case it is not apparent, all of this is actually in response to the charge that the Democrats are out of touch with that large swath of the population who voted for Trump (without actually being shrill MAGA).

I actually don't think they are. The more likely explanation is that there is a reactionary wave in response to the new legislation being put in place to respond to current challenges. A very common response and to be expected. A lot of people generally don't like change.
That same reactionary wave is happening in many other western economies. I'd also add this reactionary wave has been amplified by massive external (and also internal) effort to destabilise western democracies, which is not all surprising for the perpetrators also see their existence on the line. 

 islander wrote:
You don't get to continue a policy and complain that it was a bad policy. When the regime changes the new regime gets to set the policy. 

There were three rounds of stimulus: the CARES Act (enacted in the last year of Trump's first term with near-unanimous support in Congress) and two more, one in March of 2020 and one in 2021. The CARES Act was $2.2T, and the second was $900B of an omnibus bill, the other a stand-alone at $1.9T. Trump signed the first two, Biden the third. Biden tried for the first half of his term to get yet more money dumped into the economy (remember "Build Back Better"?) but couldn't get it past Congress. He gets points for trying.

Al three were profligate wastes of money and led to the worst inflation in decades. If Trump started a fire Biden threw fuel on it. And as noted previously there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between the two on trade. Trump 2.0 has made it way worse, but watch what happens when the next administration takes power. I'd put money on those tariffs staying in place.

Power serves power first. Shocking.

When retail outlets were shut down but online merchants got a pass...surprise, online merchants prospered. This trend was already underway but lockdowns (run mostly at the state and local levels, not at the federal) accelerated it. 

Both administrations engaged in politically-motivated jawboning to shake down major tech companies for what they wanted. The Democrats wanted more censorship, Trump wanted his ass kissed and his pockets lined. Trump was more brazen about it but both abused their power.

 islander wrote:
More like apology. Back off the culture war, back off the condescension, acknowledge that people who didn't go to college (even the ones who aren't in a union) are valuable members of society, lean into competence at governing and the left ditch has a chance of getting the national vehicle stuck uselessly in it for the next four years.

 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:

I work with my hands. So does my crew. So does everyone in our yard. There is a wide range of wisdom in that set, and a wide range of political affiliations and it's not correlated with the number of busted knuckles. 

 Lazy8 wrote:
and Ill take exception here. Trump locked everything down. Trump provided the stimulus and the 'don't pay your rent ' packages. But it's biden/the dems fault for not fixing it fast enough? Things were largely open when Biden came around. And while there were some ham handed policies, the US recovered better than a lot of the world.

Had covid been handled better at the start by Trump and team, the whole thing could have been lessened.

As to who profited from it all, well here are some of the winners:

https://youtu.be/QQCd-NyN0Ds?si=UWbg5xMn3j6UgFh8

 Lazy8 wrote:

So.... appeasement?   You want Obama again?  That might be okay, 3rd terms are en vogue now.

 black321 wrote:
Even if it were accurate (and for the reasons below I don't think it is) let's workshop that as an electoral strategy:

"You're assholes and we hate you. Vote for us."