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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Downed "Objects" Page: Previous  1, 2, 3
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Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 3:30pm

 VV wrote:
Ok, thanks. I had not seen that one.
 
It still seems very odd to me that (if China is involved in any of these other incursions) why they even tried as would not the original balloon (which was shot down) put our military in a heightened state of alert? As a result, we were better able to detect and to bring these other objects down. And further to that, does China want us to hand us the smoking gun that these objects belong to them? Do they also not care about the potential for us to get insight into the technology that these objects were using? I’m just wondering whether the risk was greater than the reward?

 Now that we are aware of them… the element of surprise is no longer there.
  
Clearly there are still more questions than answers at this point.

There are an infinite number of questions. There will never be enough answers out of the Defense Dept.

Let's say we have incontrovertible proof that these objects came from China. So what? What are we going to do about it, declare war? Because they dared do something via balloon that we do multiple times a day by satellite?

If we over-react and start knocking things out of the sky the moment we see them they could bleed the defense budget white with a few hundred bucks worth of balloons and rolls of aluminum foil.

A balloon can't carry enough of anything or target it accurately enough or deliver it fast and reliably enough to be a credible threat. Kurtster's EMP idea is hilarious; the Chinese have actual missiles that could deliver an EMP weapon or loiter in orbit until the right moment. That gives you minutes of warning, not hours or days. And that would be technically an act of war likely to provoke a response the Chinese leadership would not survive.

If this becomes a genuine nuisance we could come up with a dozen cheaper ways to knock balloons down than fighter jets.
R_P

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Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 2:47pm

Theory in this case (3a/b) being: conjecture/a hunch/rectally acquired information.

No wonder "officials" aren't attaching their names to it.

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 2:28pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


I was reading in the middle of the night so my paraphrasing might be off, but this is the article that I'm working off of:
The most alarming theory under consideration by some U.S. officials is that the objects are sent by China or another power in an attempt to learn more about American radar or early warning systems.

A senior administration official said one theory — and the person stressed that it is just a theory — is that China or Russia sent the objects to test American intelligence-gathering capabilities. They could be sent to learn both how quickly the United States becomes aware of an intrusion and how quickly the military can respond to such an incursion, the official said.

American officials are united in their belief that the spy balloon that transited the United States was a Chinese machine meant to conduct surveillance on American military bases. Officials said it was unclear if China had complete control of the balloon during its whole journey. But officials said China did have at least a limited ability to steer it, and the balloon maneuvered on Feb. 3 before it was shot down the next day.

Another American official said the Chinese spy balloon was equipped with a self-destruct mechanism, but Beijing did not use it, a potential sign that Chinese officials wanted to continue to collect intelligence, even after it was discovered.


Ok, thanks. I had not seen that one.
 
It still seems very odd to me that (if China is involved in any of these other incursions) why they even tried as would not the original balloon (which was shot down) put our military in a heightened state of alert? As a result, we were better able to detect and to bring these other objects down. And further to that, does China want us to hand us the smoking gun that these objects belong to them? Do they also not care about the potential for us to get insight into the technology that these objects were using? I’m just wondering whether the risk was greater than the reward?

 Now that we are aware of them… the element of surprise is no longer there.
  
Clearly there are still more questions than answers at this point.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 1:09pm

 VV wrote:


Self-destruct modes... interesting. Wherewhen was this discovered as I had not run across any articles about that?


I was reading in the middle of the night so my paraphrasing might be off, but this is the article that I'm working off of:
The most alarming theory under consideration by some U.S. officials is that the objects are sent by China or another power in an attempt to learn more about American radar or early warning systems.

A senior administration official said one theory — and the person stressed that it is just a theory — is that China or Russia sent the objects to test American intelligence-gathering capabilities. They could be sent to learn both how quickly the United States becomes aware of an intrusion and how quickly the military can respond to such an incursion, the official said.

American officials are united in their belief that the spy balloon that transited the United States was a Chinese machine meant to conduct surveillance on American military bases. Officials said it was unclear if China had complete control of the balloon during its whole journey. But officials said China did have at least a limited ability to steer it, and the balloon maneuvered on Feb. 3 before it was shot down the next day.

Another American official said the Chinese spy balloon was equipped with a self-destruct mechanism, but Beijing did not use it, a potential sign that Chinese officials wanted to continue to collect intelligence, even after it was discovered.

VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 12:51pm

 kurtster wrote:
The Pentagon did issue a statement that says they "have not ruled out alien or extraterrestrial" objects. Yeah, ok ..

All I am saying is that there is a whole lot of weirdness going on with the information (or lack therof) about these last three objects taken down. The mere fact that the Pentagon would even make the statement above is bizarre as wouldn't they be the first ones to discredit something like that?

I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means and don't have a clue what these objects are and wouldn't think much about it if they were all reported as "balloons" or drones from the get-go... but they haven't been. To add to the apparent mystery of what they really are... no cockpit video has been released that even show what these things looked like travelling in the air as all three seem to be different. And one report I read indicated that the expert couldn't even determine how the object was staying airborne. That expert had to either be an eye-witness pilot who shot it down or someone who has actually viewed some cockpit footage that hasn't yet been publicly released.
 
It just adds up to a really strange mix of information that I hope gets sorted out over time. It seems like we were collectively more interested in something we could put a label on and less so on something we can't.



kurtster

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Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 12:29pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 VV wrote:

Am I the only one who is wierded out about the fact that there were three objects recently shot down (after the Chinese balloon last week) and it seems no one can definitely categorize what those objects were: balloon, drone, missile, rocket, jet, plane? I read one report where one was the size of a car and one that was cylindrical in shape and one report said that the military didn't even know what kind of propulsion system was being used to keep the object aloft. That last statement is enough to have anyone's head spinning.
 
I would think that our collective intelligence gathering would be able to tell us if there was another country with the technological know-how capable of creating these bizarre craft, but all seems silent on that front. Sure, China seems the easy answer given the balloon incident, but would it make sense for China to send an additional three objects into North American airspace just to see if they would be shot down too... and as a result provide significant technological intel to us through an examination of the debris of these additional objects? Would that really make much sense?  I know that Schumer has said that he thinks they were all balloons. Has anyone ever had to really "think" when something is a balloon or not?  

Didn't we learn that there are hundreds of these per year, but that we've never logged them? Now our feelers are up and we're throwing $400K missiles at them. This gives the Chinese et al a pinpoint of where the thing was detected, at what altitude, what material, etc. ——what exactly it takes to provoke a response. A few hundred more data points and they'll have a good idea of our radar's capability. Or do they?
 
F - 22's cost $80 k per hour to operate according to a factoid I saw.  So it's more than just the cost of missiles.  The F - 16's came out of Portland, right by hippie's old place.  I heard them a lot when I was out there (06 - 07).  He told me how often they went up and could tell the difference between drills and not drills.  They were split pretty much 50 / 50 as something was always happening.  Doesn't mean the real ones get reported to the general public, cuz they don't.  Anyway, 3 birds and a missile, an easy $2 mil, per event.

I have also learned that all the radar images used by the military for these purposes are recorded (probably kept in that Mega place in Utah) and they are now playing them back using the new signatures from these "objects" to look for past events that were not noticed because no one was even aware and looking for them.  Now they are aware.

I can't say about these new ones, but the first balloon was or should have been capturing the frequencies used in communications between ground and air, super high rez pictures to actually watch us respond and deploy defenses and from exactly where, in real time.  Pinpoint missile targets and a way to neutralize communications.

A balloon, such as the first one is also what would be used to deploy a high altitude EMP device.  In which case, we are back in the stone age.  I have also heard that this balloon did in fact have a "kill switch" or a self destruct function.  Shoulda never got past Alaska, but Joltin' Joe is in charge and evidently the military does not respect him or the office he holds and inform him of these events.  But they did that to Trump, too.  And remember how General Milley called his Chinese counterpart to reassure them that he would not let Trump do anything that could threaten China after the January 6th debacle.  Promised insubordination to an enemy's benefit ...  And he is still running the show now, too.

The Pentagon did issue a statement that says they "have not ruled out alien or extraterrestrial" objects.  Yeah, ok ..

But otherwise nothing to see, we're focused on the economy and being told how great things are.

Meanwhile, before the balloons, we were saved and maybe they're gonna try again ?
.
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 12:27pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


I dunno, but the first big one was spotted by civilians, so the cat's out of the bag there. 

If we are publicly announcing when and where every balloon is spotted, that seems like information the Chinese et al can use.

I don't think we know specifics about them but they're making some assumptions, maybe? I do wish they could harpoon one and bring it down intact, but apparently some of them have self-destruct modes. 


Self-destruct modes... interesting. Wherewhen was this discovered as I had not run across any articles about that?
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 11:22am

 VV wrote:

Sorry, I’m not sure I am following your data points angle. Are you saying that in all probability we know exactly what all of these objects are and we are purposefully being vague about that as to lead the country (or countries) responsible for them to believe we know very little about them?
  
If so, then what was the point of the quick identification/attribution of the original large balloon to China. Why not plead ignorance of that as well?
 
Or is the truth about these new objects that we truly know very little about them?





I dunno, but the first big one was spotted by civilians, so the cat's out of the bag there. 

If we are publicly announcing when and where every balloon is spotted, that seems like information the Chinese et al can use.

I don't think we know specifics about them but they're making some assumptions, maybe? I do wish they could harpoon one and bring it down intact, but apparently some of them have self-destruct modes. 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 11:16am

On March 12th, the balloon W-273 completed a global circumnavigation
flight, having been launched 16 days earlier on February 24th. The
balloon successfully maneuvered to avoid Russian and Ukrainian airspace,
and overflew such topographical features as the Alps and Himalayas.
As well as China.

Proclivities

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Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 11:06am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


Didn't we learn that there are hundreds of these per year, but that we've never logged them? Now our feelers are up and we're throwing $400K missiles at them. This gives the Chinese et al a pinpoint of where the thing was detected, at what altitude, what material, etc. ——what exactly it takes to provoke a response. A few hundred more data points and they'll have a good idea of our radar's capability. Or do they?


Reportedly, "NORAD  adjusted its radar system to make it more sensitive. As a result, the number of objects it detected increased sharply. In other words, NORAD is picking up more incursions because it is looking for them, spurred on by the heightened awareness caused by the furor over the spy balloon..."
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 10:35am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:


They were much smaller, apparently, but honestly I expect everything that's said about any of them to be wrong because all of this is more data points to whoever is sending them.

Sorry, I’m not sure I am following your data points angle. Are you saying that in all probability we know exactly what all of these objects are and we are purposefully being vague about that as to lead the country (or countries) responsible for them to believe we know very little about them?
  
If so, then what was the point of the quick identification/attribution of the original large balloon to China. Why not plead ignorance of that as well?
 
Or is the truth about these new objects that we truly know very little about them?



ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 10:17am

 VV wrote:

But that’s just it. They don’t seem to be balloons or they would be definitively identified as such. And when someone says they aren’t sure of how they were staying aloft… that would certainly seem to indicate something very unusual. And one other thought… we had plenty of pics of the Chinese balloon. Do you mean to tell me there is no cockpit video of any of the other 3 objects that were shot down?



They were much smaller, apparently, but honestly I expect everything that's said about any of them to be wrong because all of this is more data points to whoever is sending them.
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 10:11am

 Lazy8 wrote:

It would be hard for them to be anything but balloons as slow as they were moving. Not exactly technological marvels.

But that’s just it. They don’t seem to be balloons or they would be definitively identified as such. And when someone says they aren’t sure of how they were staying aloft… that would certainly seem to indicate something very unusual. And one other thought… we had plenty of pics of the Chinese balloon. Do you mean to tell me there is no cockpit video of any of the other 3 objects that were shot down?

GeneP59

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Location: On the edge of tomorrow looking back at yesterday.
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 9:46am

After we find out if it’s Russia, China, or North Korea, the usual suspects, I say we fill 1000 metallic balloons and release them all at once to f’ with them

Release the kraken!
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 9:34am

 VV wrote:

Am I the only one who is wierded out about the fact that there were three objects recently shot down (after the Chinese balloon last week) and it seems no one can definitely categorize what those objects were: balloon, drone, missile, rocket, jet, plane? I read one report where one was the size of a car and one that was cylindrical in shape and one report said that the military didn't even know what kind of propulsion system was being used to keep the object aloft. That last statement is enough to have anyone's head spinning.
 
I would think that our collective intelligence gathering would be able to tell us if there was another country with the technological know-how capable of creating these bizarre craft, but all seems silent on that front. Sure, China seems the easy answer given the balloon incident, but would it make sense for China to send an additional three objects into North American airspace just to see if they would be shot down too... and as a result provide significant technological intel to us through an examination of the debris of these additional objects? Would that really make much sense?  I know that Schumer has said that he thinks they were all balloons. Has anyone ever had to really "think" when something is a balloon or not?  



Didn't we learn that there are hundreds of these per year, but that we've never logged them? Now our feelers are up and we're throwing $400K missiles at them. This gives the Chinese et al a pinpoint of where the thing was detected, at what altitude, what material, etc. ——what exactly it takes to provoke a response. A few hundred more data points and they'll have a good idea of our radar's capability. Or do they?

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 9:01am

 VV wrote:

Am I the only one who is wierded out about the fact that there were three objects recently shot down (after the Chinese balloon last week) and it seems no one can definitely categorize what those objects were: balloon, drone, missile, rocket, jet, plane? I read one report where one was the size of a car and one that was cylindrical in shape and one report said that the military didn't even know what kind of propulsion system was being used to keep the object aloft. That last statement is enough to have anyone's head spinning.
 
I would think that our collective intelligence gathering would be able to tell us if there was another country with the technological know-how capable of creating these bizarre craft, but all seems silent on that front. Sure, China seems the easy answer given the balloon incident, but would it make sense for China to send an additional three objects into North American airspace just to see if they would be shot down too... and as a result provide significant technological intel to us through an examination of the debris of these additional objects? Would that really make much sense?  I know that Schumer has said that he thinks they were all balloons. Has anyone ever had to really "think" when something is a balloon or not?


It would be hard for them to be anything but balloons as slow as they were moving. Not exactly technological marvels.
VV

VV Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 13, 2023 - 8:54am

Am I the only one who is wierded out about the fact that there were three objects recently shot down (after the Chinese balloon last week) and it seems no one can definitely categorize what those objects were: balloon, drone, missile, rocket, jet, plane? I read one report where one was the size of a car and one that was cylindrical in shape and one report said that the military didn't even know what kind of propulsion system was being used to keep the object aloft. That last statement is enough to have anyone's head spinning.
 
I would think that our collective intelligence gathering would be able to tell us if there was another country with the technological know-how capable of creating these bizarre craft, but all seems silent on that front. Sure, China seems the easy answer given the balloon incident, but would it make sense for China to send an additional three objects into North American airspace just to see if they would be shot down too... and as a result provide significant technological intel to us through an examination of the debris of these additional objects? Would that really make much sense?  I know that Schumer has said that he thinks they were all balloons. Has anyone ever had to really "think" when something is a balloon or not?  

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