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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » Looting & vandalism isn't protest Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 14, 15, 16  Next
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R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 9:02pm

From the Start, Federal Agents Demanded a Role in Suppressing Protests
Government memos show how a gung-ho federal law enforcement response may have been driven by a shaky understanding of the demonstrations’ roots.
KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 8:57pm

Never gets old...

KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 3:38pm



 BlueHeronDruid wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

Right now you couldn't pay me enough money to set foot in NYC with or without Trump being there at the same time. 

Or Portland or Seattle or Chicago or ...  I do not have a death wish.

 
Clearly you have no idea what's happening in Portland, and I can only guess it's because of your chosen sources.

You think the stormtroopers are going to snatch you at the airport? Don't go near the Federal Building. Especially not with legitimate business. Even in broad daylight. Check out Filipe Nystrom (court interpreter) story.

And the protests? Here's something from a friend who lives in Portland. Someone you know personally. But do call her a liar.


A few family members and friends have reached out to me in the last couple of weeks, concerned for my safety regarding the protests in Portland. I thanked them for thinking of me—and then decided it was time to mindfully set the record straight in case anyone else is worried. What I'm about to impart is what I know to be true, not taken from any news source, but from what I've witnessed and from the accounts of friends and acquaintances who have been to or near the protests.

- Portland is not under siege or torn apart by riots - and protests are not disrupting daily life

- The looting and initial violence happened just after the Floyd killing - and much of it was done by trouble-makers unaffiliated with any political group (this was even reported by the BBC), but who were seizing the opportunity to come into town and loot - and some of these people, along with "professional anarchists," were likely responsible for the graffiti on the federal buildings downtown

- When you see pictures of boarded up windows and storefronts in Portland, many of them are businesses that had to shut down during the Covid quarantine and have not yet re-opened.

- Before the federal agents were sent in, the protests going on were peaceful ones, with people calling for social justice and speaking out against police brutality - in other words, exercising their First Amendment. The downtown protests were actually starting to dwindle. I know people who went almost nightly, including members of a Zen Buddhist community. No one was endangered. Only graffiti on buildings, which was likely the result of the aforementioned anarchists, not peaceful protesters. Because peaceful.

- When federal agents were sent in without being summoned and unleashing tear gas on peaceful protesters (and the mayor and members of the press) and beating them and shooting rubber bullets at their heads (one young man was hospitalized with a fractured skull) - it triggered an escalation. That's what spurred the "wall of moms" because their peacefully protesting kids were getting injured. The violent people — who then started coming back into town - were and still are in the minority.

- The protests are only happening at night in the few blocks surrounding the Justice Center downtown when the federal agents and some police come out to form a protective perimeter and then start pushing the crowds out.

- Certain news agencies are sensationalizing this and making it look far worse than it is - so I caution you to choose your sources judiciously - maybe seek out neutral ones




 



black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 2:20pm

Interesting perspective of Portland. I tend to agree with his conclusion, neither side is innocent, both are guilty.

I still don't understand the silence/acceptance of the agitators among the protesters, regardless of whether the majority are peaceful.
I know it can be a tricky line to draw, speaking out against the violence, without appearing to speak out against the aims of the movement, but it can be done.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 2:17pm

Trump Wanted His Portland Policy to Backfire — But Not Like This
But the second part of Trump’s plan isn’t working as well as the first. The president has succeeded in sowing chaos in America’s cities. But somehow, the fact that Trump is now presiding over mass unrest has not convinced swing voters that keeping him in office is the best way to prevent mass unrest.

Asked which candidate they trusted more on the issue of “crime and safety,” respondents to a recent Washington Post/ABC News poll backed Biden over Trump by a margin of 50 percent to 41 percent. Late last month, a Kaiser Family Foundation
survey found Biden boasting an identical edge over Trump on the question of which candidate could be trusted to “maintain law and order.” And an Economist/YouGov poll released last week found Americans disapproving of Trump’s performance on “crime and criminal justice reform” by a 47 percent to 38 percent margin.

Meanwhile, with regard to the issue that lies at the heart of the past two months of protests, Biden’s advantage over Trump is even larger. A recent Fox News poll found that Americans believe Biden would do a better job handling “race relations” than Trump by a 52 to 31 percent margin.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 1:29pm

Good post/report BlueHeronDruid.  ↓ 

Corresponds to exactlyw what I would expect reading from a distance.  

I am not a fan of political violence but from the strikes and massive protests I have attended/helped organize or the ones I have observed from afar, rarely are innocent civilians at risk unless they attempt to stop looters and vandals.  
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 1:23pm

MPD: ‘Umbrella Man’ Believed To Be Member Of Hell’s Angels Who Wanted To Sow Racial Unrest During Floyd Protests


BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 11:06am



 kurtster wrote:

Right now you couldn't pay me enough money to set foot in NYC with or without Trump being there at the same time. 

Or Portland or Seattle or Chicago or ...  I do not have a death wish.

 
Clearly you have no idea what's happening in Portland, and I can only guess it's because of your chosen sources.

You think the stormtroopers are going to snatch you at the airport? Don't go near the Federal Building. Especially not with legitimate business. Even in broad daylight. Check out Filipe Nystrom (court interpreter) story.

And the protests? Here's something from a friend who lives in Portland. Someone you know personally. But do call her a liar.


A few family members and friends have reached out to me in the last couple of weeks, concerned for my safety regarding the protests in Portland. I thanked them for thinking of me—and then decided it was time to mindfully set the record straight in case anyone else is worried. What I'm about to impart is what I know to be true, not taken from any news source, but from what I've witnessed and from the accounts of friends and acquaintances who have been to or near the protests.

- Portland is not under siege or torn apart by riots - and protests are not disrupting daily life

- The looting and initial violence happened just after the Floyd killing - and much of it was done by trouble-makers unaffiliated with any political group (this was even reported by the BBC), but who were seizing the opportunity to come into town and loot - and some of these people, along with "professional anarchists," were likely responsible for the graffiti on the federal buildings downtown

- When you see pictures of boarded up windows and storefronts in Portland, many of them are businesses that had to shut down during the Covid quarantine and have not yet re-opened.

- Before the federal agents were sent in, the protests going on were peaceful ones, with people calling for social justice and speaking out against police brutality - in other words, exercising their First Amendment. The downtown protests were actually starting to dwindle. I know people who went almost nightly, including members of a Zen Buddhist community. No one was endangered. Only graffiti on buildings, which was likely the result of the aforementioned anarchists, not peaceful protesters. Because peaceful.

- When federal agents were sent in without being summoned and unleashing tear gas on peaceful protesters (and the mayor and members of the press) and beating them and shooting rubber bullets at their heads (one young man was hospitalized with a fractured skull) - it triggered an escalation. That's what spurred the "wall of moms" because their peacefully protesting kids were getting injured. The violent people — who then started coming back into town - were and still are in the minority.

- The protests are only happening at night in the few blocks surrounding the Justice Center downtown when the federal agents and some police come out to form a protective perimeter and then start pushing the crowds out.

- Certain news agencies are sensationalizing this and making it look far worse than it is - so I caution you to choose your sources judiciously - maybe seek out neutral ones


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 28, 2020 - 1:23am

Police: Richmond riots instigated by white supremacists disguised as Black Lives Matter
kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 8:20pm



 kurtster wrote:
 

Kurt,

Congrats on comparing some destruction from scattered riots and demonstrations

To a Wholesale Destruction of Democracy, Rule of Law and Competent Governance.




Another way to look at it: find the number of people who've died from BLM-related demonstrations and riots.

COMPARE THAT NUMBER WITH THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO'VE DIED FROM THE CORONAVIRUS.

ADD THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO'VE COMMITTED SUICIDE OUT OF FINANCIAL DESPAIR BECAUSE OF THE CRATERED ECONOMY.

ADD IN, AT A LESSER WEIGHT, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BECOME SICK BY COVID-19.

DON'T FORGET TO ADD IN, AT A STILL LESSER WEIGHT, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO'VE LOST THEIR  JOBS AND BUSINESSES BECAUSE OF THE CORONAVIRUS.

FINALLY, EXPLAIN TO US JUST WTF TRUMP IS DOING TO COMBAT COVID-19.

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 7:28pm

 kcar wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Why Do Democrats Defend Disorder?

My party always stood for principled dissent, not lawless chaos.

By Ted Van DykJuly 26, 2020 2:12 pm ET
Democrats’ response to the continuing round of urban disturbances makes one think that, yet again, they will snatch electoral defeat from the jaws of victory.

After President Trump’s dispatch of federal officers to protect federal facilities in Portland, Ore., some Democratic politicians characterized the officers as “storm troopers” or “secret agents” bent on sending “peaceful protesters” to concentration camps. I watched attacks on the Portland federal building on television as they were happening. The officers were uniformed and clearly identified. The perpetrators weren’t peaceful protesters but black-clad thugs using hammers and baseball bats to damage the building. Others attempted to set fire to it.

Local and state officials objected to the federal presence, saying it “made things worse” in the city. On the same evening, a group in Seattle paraded to a police precinct headquarters, breaking shop windows along the way. Several officers were injured. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio was forced to evict occupiers from City Hall Plaza.

Meantime, violent crime is on the rise in cities around the country. Chicago has been experiencing a murder plague visited on mostly minority residents over many months. It seems incredible that elected Democrats are supporting initiatives to defund the police, releasing prisoners from local jails, and even removing law-enforcement officers from schools.

Democrats should forget President Trump for a second.
The current round of violence isn’t being undertaken by civil-justice or other reformers but by radicals using Jacobin street-violence tactics. The idea is to provoke confrontation and violence with constituted authority so as to discredit it, counting on a few gullible local residents to see police as oppressors. The pretense of peaceful protest is rapidly disappearing. Deaths, serious injuries, arson, public and private property damage, and economic dislocation have resulted.

The longer this continues, the greater demand to see it stopped will grow among wage-earning families, small-business people, homeowners, taxpayers and voters. Families of public safety and emergency personnel already have been alienated.

Any president dating back to Franklin D. Roosevelt would have taken action under these circumstances. First, there would be denunciation of the violence. Then the president would ask local officials if they needed federal help. If the answer was yes, it would be sent immediately. If the answer was no but disorder continued, the president would no doubt dispatch officers to protect federal buildings and otherwise restore order as authorized by the Constitution. He would know that the country at large looked to the president as the ultimate guarantor of public safety.

I can’t imagine Joe Biden, as vice president or a senator, hesitating to denounce lawlessness. Nor can I imagine past congressional, state and local leaders condoning such destruction. Democrats have always supported dissent, not disorder.

Many of Mr. Trump’s policies deserve criticism, but this isn’t one of them. Democrats are presenting a pro-chaos caricature of themselves, which will discredit them with the public if they maintain it. Especially at the local level, elected officials must recognize that a majority of Americans want to live normal lives without threat of violence or harm.

Mr. Van Dyk was active in Democratic national policy and politics for 40 years. He is author of “Heroes, Hacks and Fools” (University of Washington Press, 2007).

 

Good article!

The Democrat politicians have gone all-in on these protests, assuming the violence & destruction will hurt Trump.  Unfortunately for them, just the opposite is occurring.  Maybe not among the liberal population of Seattle & Portland, however everyone else is appalled.  And they don't want that shitshow in their communities.  Too late.  These memories and the abundance of video evidence produced every night  won't be forgotten before the voters arrive at the ballot boxes.  And now I'm reading that maybe mayor Ted is having second thoughts...


The world's sh*tt*est violin, KK: and it's playing for you. 
Maybe you should lurch your way to Twitter and stay there: 

https://twitter.com/search?q=%...
 

We'll flush twice just to make sure you get there! AMF!

 



R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 7:28pm

 kcar wrote:


The world's sh*tt*est violin, KK: and it's playing for you. 
Maybe you should lurch your way to Twitter and stay there: 
https://twitter.com/search?q=%...
 

We'll flush twice just to make sure you get there! AMF!
 
The Snowflake-in-chief 


kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 7:17pm



 KarmaKarma wrote:


 black321 wrote:

Why Do Democrats Defend Disorder?

My party always stood for principled dissent, not lawless chaos.

By Ted Van DykJuly 26, 2020 2:12 pm ET


    Democrats’ response to the continuing round of urban disturbances makes one think that, yet again, they will snatch electoral defeat from the jaws of victory.

    After President Trump’s dispatch of federal officers to protect federal facilities in Portland, Ore., some Democratic politicians characterized the officers as “storm troopers” or “secret agents” bent on sending “peaceful protesters” to concentration camps. I watched attacks on the Portland federal building on television as they were happening. The officers were uniformed and clearly identified. The perpetrators weren’t peaceful protesters but black-clad thugs using hammers and baseball bats to damage the building. Others attempted to set fire to it.

    Local and state officials objected to the federal presence, saying it “made things worse” in the city. On the same evening, a group in Seattle paraded to a police precinct headquarters, breaking shop windows along the way. Several officers were injured. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio was forced to evict occupiers from City Hall Plaza.

    Meantime, violent crime is on the rise in cities around the country. Chicago has been experiencing a murder plague visited on mostly minority residents over many months. It seems incredible that elected Democrats are supporting initiatives to defund the police, releasing prisoners from local jails, and even removing law-enforcement officers from schools.

    Democrats should forget President Trump for a second.
    The current round of violence isn’t being undertaken by civil-justice or other reformers but by radicals using Jacobin street-violence tactics. The idea is to provoke confrontation and violence with constituted authority so as to discredit it, counting on a few gullible local residents to see police as oppressors. The pretense of peaceful protest is rapidly disappearing. Deaths, serious injuries, arson, public and private property damage, and economic dislocation have resulted.

    The longer this continues, the greater demand to see it stopped will grow among wage-earning families, small-business people, homeowners, taxpayers and voters. Families of public safety and emergency personnel already have been alienated.

    Any president dating back to Franklin D. Roosevelt would have taken action under these circumstances. First, there would be denunciation of the violence. Then the president would ask local officials if they needed federal help. If the answer was yes, it would be sent immediately. If the answer was no but disorder continued, the president would no doubt dispatch officers to protect federal buildings and otherwise restore order as authorized by the Constitution. He would know that the country at large looked to the president as the ultimate guarantor of public safety.

    I can’t imagine Joe Biden, as vice president or a senator, hesitating to denounce lawlessness. Nor can I imagine past congressional, state and local leaders condoning such destruction. Democrats have always supported dissent, not disorder.

    Many of Mr. Trump’s policies deserve criticism, but this isn’t one of them. Democrats are presenting a pro-chaos caricature of themselves, which will discredit them with the public if they maintain it. Especially at the local level, elected officials must recognize that a majority of Americans want to live normal lives without threat of violence or harm.

    Mr. Van Dyk was active in Democratic national policy and politics for 40 years. He is author of “Heroes, Hacks and Fools” (University of Washington Press, 2007).

     

    Good article!

    The Democrat politicians have gone all-in on these protests, assuming the violence & destruction will hurt Trump.  Unfortunately for them, just the opposite is occurring.  Maybe not among the liberal population of Seattle & Portland, however everyone else is appalled.  And they don't want that shitshow in their communities.  Too late.  These memories and the abundance of video evidence produced every night  won't be forgotten before the voters arrive at the ballot boxes.  And now I'm reading that maybe mayor Ted is having second thoughts...


    The world's sh*tt*est violin, KK: and it's playing for you. 


    Maybe you should lurch your way to Twitter and stay there: 

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%...
     

    We'll flush twice just to make sure you get there! AMF!

    KarmaKarma

    KarmaKarma Avatar



    Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 6:59pm

    You're on your own Seattle businesses!  Bonne chance!
    KarmaKarma

    KarmaKarma Avatar



    Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 6:57pm



     black321 wrote:

    Why Do Democrats Defend Disorder?

    My party always stood for principled dissent, not lawless chaos.

    By Ted Van DykJuly 26, 2020 2:12 pm ET


      Democrats’ response to the continuing round of urban disturbances makes one think that, yet again, they will snatch electoral defeat from the jaws of victory.

      After President Trump’s dispatch of federal officers to protect federal facilities in Portland, Ore., some Democratic politicians characterized the officers as “storm troopers” or “secret agents” bent on sending “peaceful protesters” to concentration camps. I watched attacks on the Portland federal building on television as they were happening. The officers were uniformed and clearly identified. The perpetrators weren’t peaceful protesters but black-clad thugs using hammers and baseball bats to damage the building. Others attempted to set fire to it.

      Local and state officials objected to the federal presence, saying it “made things worse” in the city. On the same evening, a group in Seattle paraded to a police precinct headquarters, breaking shop windows along the way. Several officers were injured. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio was forced to evict occupiers from City Hall Plaza.

      Meantime, violent crime is on the rise in cities around the country. Chicago has been experiencing a murder plague visited on mostly minority residents over many months. It seems incredible that elected Democrats are supporting initiatives to defund the police, releasing prisoners from local jails, and even removing law-enforcement officers from schools.

      Democrats should forget President Trump for a second.
      The current round of violence isn’t being undertaken by civil-justice or other reformers but by radicals using Jacobin street-violence tactics. The idea is to provoke confrontation and violence with constituted authority so as to discredit it, counting on a few gullible local residents to see police as oppressors. The pretense of peaceful protest is rapidly disappearing. Deaths, serious injuries, arson, public and private property damage, and economic dislocation have resulted.

      The longer this continues, the greater demand to see it stopped will grow among wage-earning families, small-business people, homeowners, taxpayers and voters. Families of public safety and emergency personnel already have been alienated.

      Any president dating back to Franklin D. Roosevelt would have taken action under these circumstances. First, there would be denunciation of the violence. Then the president would ask local officials if they needed federal help. If the answer was yes, it would be sent immediately. If the answer was no but disorder continued, the president would no doubt dispatch officers to protect federal buildings and otherwise restore order as authorized by the Constitution. He would know that the country at large looked to the president as the ultimate guarantor of public safety.

      I can’t imagine Joe Biden, as vice president or a senator, hesitating to denounce lawlessness. Nor can I imagine past congressional, state and local leaders condoning such destruction. Democrats have always supported dissent, not disorder.

      Many of Mr. Trump’s policies deserve criticism, but this isn’t one of them. Democrats are presenting a pro-chaos caricature of themselves, which will discredit them with the public if they maintain it. Especially at the local level, elected officials must recognize that a majority of Americans want to live normal lives without threat of violence or harm.

      Mr. Van Dyk was active in Democratic national policy and politics for 40 years. He is author of “Heroes, Hacks and Fools” (University of Washington Press, 2007).

       

      Good article!

      The Democrat politicians have gone all-in on these protests, assuming the violence & destruction will hurt Trump.  Unfortunately for them, just the opposite is occurring.  Maybe not among the liberal population of Seattle & Portland, however everyone else is appalled.  And they don't want that shitshow in their communities.  Too late.  These memories and the abundance of video evidence produced every night  won't be forgotten before the voters arrive at the ballot boxes.  And now I'm reading that maybe mayor Ted is having second thoughts...
      R_P

      R_P Avatar



      Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 2:10pm

      Trump crackdown on anti-racism White House protesters ‘unprovoked’
      kcar

      kcar Avatar



      Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 12:41pm

      Revealed: oil giants help fund powerful police groups in top US cities

      Investigation portrays fossil fuel industry as common enemy in struggle for racial and environmental justice in America



      Big corporations accused of driving environmental and health inequalities in black and brown communities through toxic and climate-changing pollution are also funding powerful police groups in major US cities, according to a new investigation.

      Some of America’s largest oil and gas companies, private utilities, and financial institutions that bankroll fossil fuels also back police foundations – opaque private entities that raise money to pay for training, weapons, equipment, and surveillance technology for departments across the US.

      The investigation by the Public Accountability Initiative, a nonprofit corporate and government accountability research institute, and its research database project LittleSis, details how police foundations in cities such as Seattle, Chicago, Washington, New Orleans and Salt Lake City are partially funded by household names such as Chevron, Shell and Wells Fargo.

      Police foundations are industry groups that provide substantial funds to local departments, yet, as nonprofits, avoid much public scrutiny.

      The investigation details how firms linked to fossil fuels also sponsor events and galas that celebrate the police, while some have senior staff serving as directors of police foundations.

      ...


      The report included such companies as:


      • Chevron, a multinational oil and gas company, that is among the world’s top 25 polluters. In the US, it owns two of the worst six benzene-emitting refineries, according to the EPA. Chevron is a corporate sponsor of the New Orleans police and justice foundation, as well as a board member of the Houston police foundation and sponsor of the Houston mounted patrol. It also donates and serves on the board of Salt Lake City police foundation.

      • Shell is one of the biggest fossil fuel companies in the world, and is currently building a huge ethane cracker plant near Pittsburgh, which advocates warn could turn Appalachia into the next so-called Cancer Alley – a corridor of Louisiana refineries, where Shell is also a major polluter. Shell is a “featured partner” of the New Orleans police foundation and a sponsor of the Houston police’s mounted patrol.

      • The nation’s largest oil refining company Marathon Petroleum has long been accused of generating pollution that disproportionately affects the health of black and brown communities. Its refinery in Detroit has received 15 violations from the state environmental regulator since 2013. Marathon’s security coordinator is on the board of the Detroit police foundation, and sponsors numerous events.

      ...


      But critics argue police departments are already overfunded. Nationwide about $100bn is spent on policing each year, and cities hand over 20% to 45% of their general budgets to police departments, according to advocacy group the Center for Popular Democracy Action.

      Police foundation money is additional, and this money is much harder to trace since they are not subject to the same transparency rules as public entities such as law enforcement agencies.

      Aside from fossil fuel firms, utility companies were also highlighted in the report as playing a dual role as polluters and backers of police foundations.

      America’s 100 largest utilities accounted for 80% of measurable air emissions, according to a 2019 report. Low-income African American communities disproportionately suffer
      health problems such as respiratory and cardiovascular disease, and face a higher risk of death from the fine particulate emissions that come from power plants, according to researchers at the University of Washington and Stanford.






      sirdroseph

      sirdroseph Avatar

      Location: Yes
      Gender: Male


      Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 12:28pm

      black321

      black321 Avatar

      Location: An earth without maps
      Gender: Male


      Posted: Jul 27, 2020 - 9:14am

      Why Do Democrats Defend Disorder?

      My party always stood for principled dissent, not lawless chaos.

      By Ted Van DykJuly 26, 2020 2:12 pm ET


        Democrats’ response to the continuing round of urban disturbances makes one think that, yet again, they will snatch electoral defeat from the jaws of victory.

        After President Trump’s dispatch of federal officers to protect federal facilities in Portland, Ore., some Democratic politicians characterized the officers as “storm troopers” or “secret agents” bent on sending “peaceful protesters” to concentration camps. I watched attacks on the Portland federal building on television as they were happening. The officers were uniformed and clearly identified. The perpetrators weren’t peaceful protesters but black-clad thugs using hammers and baseball bats to damage the building. Others attempted to set fire to it.

        Local and state officials objected to the federal presence, saying it “made things worse” in the city. On the same evening, a group in Seattle paraded to a police precinct headquarters, breaking shop windows along the way. Several officers were injured. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio was forced to evict occupiers from City Hall Plaza.

        Meantime, violent crime is on the rise in cities around the country. Chicago has been experiencing a murder plague visited on mostly minority residents over many months. It seems incredible that elected Democrats are supporting initiatives to defund the police, releasing prisoners from local jails, and even removing law-enforcement officers from schools.

        Democrats should forget President Trump for a second.
        The current round of violence isn’t being undertaken by civil-justice or other reformers but by radicals using Jacobin street-violence tactics. The idea is to provoke confrontation and violence with constituted authority so as to discredit it, counting on a few gullible local residents to see police as oppressors. The pretense of peaceful protest is rapidly disappearing. Deaths, serious injuries, arson, public and private property damage, and economic dislocation have resulted.

        The longer this continues, the greater demand to see it stopped will grow among wage-earning families, small-business people, homeowners, taxpayers and voters. Families of public safety and emergency personnel already have been alienated.

        Any president dating back to Franklin D. Roosevelt would have taken action under these circumstances. First, there would be denunciation of the violence. Then the president would ask local officials if they needed federal help. If the answer was yes, it would be sent immediately. If the answer was no but disorder continued, the president would no doubt dispatch officers to protect federal buildings and otherwise restore order as authorized by the Constitution. He would know that the country at large looked to the president as the ultimate guarantor of public safety.

        I can’t imagine Joe Biden, as vice president or a senator, hesitating to denounce lawlessness. Nor can I imagine past congressional, state and local leaders condoning such destruction. Democrats have always supported dissent, not disorder.

        Many of Mr. Trump’s policies deserve criticism, but this isn’t one of them. Democrats are presenting a pro-chaos caricature of themselves, which will discredit them with the public if they maintain it. Especially at the local level, elected officials must recognize that a majority of Americans want to live normal lives without threat of violence or harm.

        Mr. Van Dyk was active in Democratic national policy and politics for 40 years. He is author of “Heroes, Hacks and Fools” (University of Washington Press, 2007).

        Ohmsen

        Ohmsen Avatar

        Location: Valhalla Mists


        Posted: Jul 26, 2020 - 8:44am



         sirdroseph wrote:


         Ohmsen wrote:


         sirdroseph wrote:
         kurtster wrote:

        Right now you couldn't pay me enough money to set foot in NYC with or without Trump being there at the same time. 

        Or Portland or Seattle or Chicago or ...  I do not have a death wish.

         
        I have avoided large metropolitan areas and large gatherings of people for over 20 years now for various reasons.  I think large groups of people congested in small areas is a bad idea in all context for all humans so I avoid those areas like the plague.   Basically we have been avoiding people way before it was cool to do so.
        {#Cowboy}


        Seems, you've been on some kind of medieval battlefield before, just like I must have been. I became aware of this in my early 30's after watching the movie 'Braveheart', not being able to get any deep sleep for 2-3 days after watching it at the Movies. Nightmares of me in the midst of battlefields instead, in a half-sleep state continued to haunt me for some weeks. 

        Quite immediately, I realized that I must have been in some such scenarios before... perhaps not in this life.

        This experience explained to me, why I have always hated to be in crowds, even in my youth, and why, in crowds I've always felt this fighter-flight syndrom. Muscles tense like razor-blades underneath my arms, hands sweating, and a general unease, always looking out, always being 'ready to fight'.

        This basically hasn't changed until today, even some 30 yrs on... it only weakened a bit, since my home town is getting more and more overcrowded by tourists. Only feeling some distaste anymore, I still have to make my way through the crowds in town today, just for grocery shopping, or to get a pizza, or some beer. 


         



         

        Interesting perspective.   My belief comes mostly from the angle of human behavior.  I believe that the larger number of people involved in any activity dilutes purity of purpose and becomes corrupted by those with agendas and a mob mentality sets in on the rest.  This idea can be manifested in any setting whether it be political, day to day living and even entertainment.  Watch Freddie Mercury or Hitler work a crowd (they use similar methods).  In regards to the plight of cities when people are pushed together and congested in large number they become cold, cynical and many desperate as the haves and have nots exist in such close proximity ergo you have increased crime and violence towards one another.  This increased crime and violence perpetuates a vicious cycle of law enforcement dealing with heinous situations so frequently they themselves become desensitized and cynical in their approach toward the public and we are no longer looked at as constituents, but as a danger.   Due to many reasons; legacy of oppression; systemic racism; lack of opportunity; degradation of the family; loss of hope; violent culture brought on by lack of family and hopelessness; list goes on and on the majority of these faces who commit these crimes in urban settings are people of color and this inevitably leads to profiling and outright bitter racism by some of the police and the cycle continues.   Then you throw in the fact that the most passionate and large protest occur in these cities which attract subversive outsiders with different agendas of anarchy and you have a wonderful cocktail that I would not bring a child around.
        And of course there is the point of business, would you start a small business in an American city?  Naw, I'm good.
             I do believe it has gotten to the point in some places to where all law enforcement should vacate and give the people what they want.   This will quickly solve all problems as the protesters and unfortunate citizens of these areas realize and feel the full brunt of all of the bad people amongst them as they turn on them because there is no one else there to protest and no one there to protect them.   There will be blood, but in the long run it will hopefully promote an atmosphere that will build a better society as they realize that police brutality is just a symptom of a much bigger problem and a lot of the blame comes from the citizens themselves.  In summation I would surmise that cities suck and I genuinely feel sympathy and concern of those that still reside in them.  Some people may disagree with this and that is fine, but Snake Plissken awaits......

         

        Good analysis in your first paragraph, I think. Conclusions drawn in the second, not sure I would so readily agree, but perhaps not wrong. - What can I say, living in Europe, on the countryside, and in a small town. Cities are not for me to live, that's for sure. Having raised my kids in a very small town by the sea seems very fortunate. 

        Have a good day!


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