Yes it is irrelevant as you have managed to derail the original discussion which was whether it was fair to mandate healthcare workers to take the vaccine (it is… and they should willingly do so without any mandate because of the position they hold)
No it was not and is not about mandating just healthcare workers. It is about mandating all workers who work for a company with more than 100 employees, all federal employees regardless of position or type of job along with states and municipalities doing the same thing. And ignoring natural immunity in the process. Meanwhile ignoring all of these mandates at the southern border.
Consider things back on track.
And to address lazy8's concern about testing for natural immunity, there is a test via the link as provided for by sird that he obviously missed earlier. A test I intend to take even though I have been vaccinated for the reasons I mentioned at the time..
Tone deaf or not, regardless of any pandemic, I say we forgot to take care of our elders as a society, and in person. It is a huge mistake. While money seems to buy anything, can't buy me love.
Whenever it comes to these arguments, litigations over (material) heritage are the public norm and narrative, whereas a natural thankfulness towards a mother, through whose body we were born aren't to be found in public, or hardly ever.
Where is the love?
What a disgrace to our seemingly 'so evolved' humanity that is!
Makes me want to throw up in person, and as a member of society.
And yes, during pandemic times it may be showing all the more as it is a most shameful trait of our society and lifestyle.
Irrelevant in the context of a pandemic you say? - Jeez.
Yes it is completely irrelevant as you have managed to derail the original discussion which was whether it was fair to mandate healthcare workers to take the vaccine (it is⦠and they should willingly do so without any mandate because of the position they hold) to a discussion of why there are so many elderly in old age homes and whether that is indicative of some sort of overall decline in our personal responsibilities for the care of our elderly.
The two have nothing to do with one another. Why someone is in an elderly care facility has nothing to do with the expectations for how they should be protected once they are there. Apples and oranges. Or maybe you are suggesting that the reason they are there should dictate the level of care they receive which would be a novel and incomprehensibly ignorant idea.
@Ohmsen, Man, you can be really tone deaf on occasion. Maybe that applies to me too.
True. In the rich west, the elderly are increasing living by themselves or living in specialized accommodations with other elders. Three generation households are increasingly rare.
That is unfortunate. Very. But it is an irrelevant concern in the context of this pandemic.
As a humane society we ought to pursue public health policies that help and improve the health outcomes of everybody regardless of their individual situation, regardless of lifestyle choices, etc.
Tone deaf or not, regardless of any pandemic, I say we forgot to take care of our elders as a society, and in person. It is a huge mistake. While money seems to buy anything, can't buy me love.
Whenever it comes to these arguments, litigations over (material) heritage are the public norm and narrative, whereas a natural thankfulness towards a mother, through whose body we were born aren't to be found in public, or hardly ever. Where is the love? What a disgrace to our seemingly 'so evolved' humanity that is!
Makes me want to throw up in person, and as a member of society.
And yes, during pandemic times it may be showing all the more as it is a most shameful trait of our society and lifestyle.
Irrelevant in the context of a pandemic you say? - Jeez.
Absolutely and you are not tone deaf. Family is being replaced by the government, or at least that is what the government is trying to do.
Seeing what went down with the elderly in nursing homes, especially in NY (Pa & NJ) with now former Gov Cuomo, who killed thousands of innocent and helpless seniors in nursing homes, my now 94 yo Mom and us are so glad we have done everything we can to provide for her health and keep her at home. Nursing homes are not the best things to begin with, but have their purposes when things are too much for simple basic support to mitigate. We have promised to do as much as we can to keep her going, in her own home. She lives by herself with her cat, is still sentient, and still drives. She also plays Bridge online and in person and recently went to a week long tournament and stayed at the premises for the entire time. Had she been in a nursing home during all of this, she more than likely would not be with us today, looking back. Better to die trying than as a helpless prisoner.
20 years ago when the wife and I got back together we debated where we would live, back to California or stay here in Ohio to be there for my parents. The wife's parents were already long gone and it was she who advocated for staying here. So here we are, doing what we decided to do. It has not been easy, but it is what family does. At least as I understand how families should be.
@Ohmsen, Man, you can be really tone deaf on occasion. Maybe that applies to me too.
True. In the rich west, the elderly are increasing living by themselves or living in specialized accommodations with other elders. Three generation households are increasingly rare.
That is unfortunate. Very. But it is an irrelevant concern in the context of this pandemic.
As a humane society we ought to pursue public health policies that help and improve the health outcomes of everybody regardless of their individual situation, regardless of lifestyle choices, etc.
Not really. While it's nice to think grandma is home cooking, watching the kids...chances are if they are in a type of institution, it's often because they have health/mental issues, or are not physically able to contribute much to home life. So instead of being tucked away in some domestic setting with children too occupied to fully care for their parents, these institutions will often offer a more vibrant, social setting for them...often after years living alone, they thrive with their peers, making new relationships...
Of course, it is always 'them' in a world of money-mongers, as today. 7.5k monthly is a sure materialist indicator. What of taking care of one's elders in person? What about living life on simpler (and less costly) terms? Turning one's own lifestyle to a more sustaining one?
Uh... what a hastle, I'm so lazy and irresponsible!
@Ohmsen, Man, you can be really tone deaf on occasion. Maybe that applies to me too.
True. In the rich west, the elderly are increasing living by themselves or living in specialized accommodations with other elders. Three generation households are increasingly rare.
That is unfortunate. Very. But it is an irrelevant concern in the context of this pandemic.
As a humane society we ought to pursue public health policies that help and improve the health outcomes of everybody regardless of their individual situation, regardless of lifestyle choices, etc.
Of course, it is always 'them' in a world of money-mongers, as today.
7.5k monthly is a sure materialist indicator.
What of taking care of one's elders in person?
What about living life on simpler (and less costly) terms?
Turning one's own lifestyle to a more sustaining one?
Uh... what a hastle, I'm so lazy and irresponsible!
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Just consider yourself lucky....and stupid.
A friend just posted this from her personal experience:
"why is it that care centers canât mandate vaccines because of personal freedom, but they can lock down said care centers so my mom, grandma, father canât leave her/his room or leave the facility to visit family because those âfree to chooseâ employees have tested positive to COVID thus requiring yet another âlock downâ of vaccinated residents. Where is the personal freedom for the resident who wants to see loved ones or go to church? Do we need to get all our elderly loved ones to form a picket line (âsay no to Lock downsâ, âthis is my home not a prisonâ)!
"For $7,500 a month a personâs loved one should not be locked in their bedroom because of the irresponsibility of the employees."
There is also the reality that some can't leave, but lockdowns also prevent visitors. My mother is in a memory care unit and was literally locked away from seeing family for a year (except the occasional window visits that were pretty much pointless). By the time we got back in to see her in person, there was no recognition...only fear that these "strangers" were trying to hug her or hold her hand.
Every time someone tests positive (it's always a staff member now...the residents and their families are all vaccinated (without any breakthrough cases) or don't leave), the place goes into testing and isolation protocols. They usually last about a week to 10 days. Luckily they haven't had too many back-to-back positives.
The facility has a requirement for vaccinations by October 15. There still remain about 20% of the staff who won't do it...and they are now "converting" to Christian Science in record numbers. The other problem is that it's difficult to hire healthcare workers right now, so many are playing chicken with their employers to see if they'll really get fired.
A friend just posted this from her personal experience:
"why is it that care centers canât mandate vaccines because of personal freedom, but they can lock down said care centers so my mom, grandma, father canât leave her/his room or leave the facility to visit family because those âfree to chooseâ employees have tested positive to COVID thus requiring yet another âlock downâ of vaccinated residents. Where is the personal freedom for the resident who wants to see loved ones or go to church? Do we need to get all our elderly loved ones to form a picket line (âsay no to Lock downsâ, âthis is my home not a prisonâ)!
"For $7,500 a month a personâs loved one should not be locked in their bedroom because of the irresponsibility of the employees."
Would like to thank R_P for posting data on this on-going natural experiment. Canada is generating similar data but does not jump off the page quite like the American data does.
A friend just posted this from her personal experience:
"why is it that care centers canât mandate vaccines because of personal freedom, but they can lock down said care centers so my mom, grandma, father canât leave her/his room or leave the facility to visit family because those âfree to chooseâ employees have tested positive to COVID thus requiring yet another âlock downâ of vaccinated residents. Where is the personal freedom for the resident who wants to see loved ones or go to church? Do we need to get all our elderly loved ones to form a picket line (âsay no to Lock downsâ, âthis is my home not a prisonâ)!
"For $7,500 a month a personâs loved one should not be locked in their bedroom because of the irresponsibility of the employees."
Red Covid Covidâs partisan pattern is growing more extreme.
During the early months of Covid-19 vaccinations, several major demographic groups lagged in receiving shots, including Black Americans, Latino Americans and Republican voters.
More recently, the racial gaps â while still existing â have narrowed. The partisan gap, however, continues to be enormous. A Pew Research Center poll last month found that 86 percent of Democratic voters had received at least one shot, compared with 60 percent of Republican voters.
The political divide over vaccinations is so large that almost every reliably blue state now has a higher vaccination rate than almost every reliably red state: Because the vaccines are so effective at preventing serious illness, Covid deaths are also showing a partisan pattern. Covid is still a national crisis, but the worst forms of it are increasingly concentrated in red America.
With the death count rising, at least a few Republicans appear to be worried about what their party and its allies have sown.
In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
His argument is certainly bizarre, given that Democratic politicians have been imploring all Americans to get vaccinated and many Republican politicians have not. But Nolte did offer a glimpse at a creeping political fear among some Republicans. âRight now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine,â Nolte wrote. âIn a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?â
Red Covid Covidâs partisan pattern is growing more extreme.
During the early months of Covid-19 vaccinations, several major demographic groups lagged in receiving shots, including Black Americans, Latino Americans and Republican voters.
More recently, the racial gaps â while still existing â have narrowed. The partisan gap, however, continues to be enormous. A Pew Research Center poll last month found that 86 percent of Democratic voters had received at least one shot, compared with 60 percent of Republican voters.
The political divide over vaccinations is so large that almost every reliably blue state now has a higher vaccination rate than almost every reliably red state:
Because the vaccines are so effective at preventing serious illness, Covid deaths are also showing a partisan pattern. Covid is still a national crisis, but the worst forms of it are increasingly concentrated in red America.
Then use your Libertarian ideals to justify mandates and discriminatory applications of these mandates.
No.
Libertarians believe your body is your property, period. No one should be allowed to force you to put anything into it under penalty of law. Why is this even a question? Why would you think I support that, despite repeated statements opposing it?
Particularly how it is okay to force someone to get vaccinated in order to simply work and make a living for openers.
Force? As in penalty of law? See above.
Require as a condition of employment or association? Fine by me. If you want to take care of old people in a nursing home or infants in a prenatal ICU or do massage therapy or give lap dances at a strip club? Want to take part in a dance weekend? Damn right you should be vaxxed, and if you want other people to work with you in close quarters they may insist too. I wouldn't blame them.
And why natural immunity established and documented via testing should be ignored as a valid reason for not being vaccinated in order to work.
Can you document natural immunity? You can document vaccination.
Testing is expensive, time-consuming, offers no protection between tests, and is prone to both false negatives and false positives. How long do you keep it up? Who pays for it? This is like refusing to build to fire code but saying "I'll look once a week to see if it's on fire."
Then use your Libertarian ideals to justify mandates and discriminatory applications of these mandates.
Particularly how it is okay to force someone to get vaccinated in order to simply work and make a living for openers.
And why natural immunity established and documented via testing should be ignored as a valid reason for not being vaccinated in order to work.
I think it was brought up earlier in the licensure discussion I didn't read, but the government forces you to have certain certificationsâall to protect the people you serveâeven though you are clearly qualified and pose no risk to your customers. If you all of a sudden rejected the idea that professionals in your line of work should have any sort of certification and your office conceded to that, I would expect your business to taper off quickly as your customers fled to the competition. Oh, hey, a libertarian ideal!
The facetiousness of your reply is truly beneath you, however people can and do change. Apparently you are devolving and abandoning your so called Libertarian principles. You have become a LINO as far as I am concerned.
Have a nice day.
LINO, I had to look that up. Hmm.... them's fighten words. Lazy8 probably cried into his Made in China handkerchief.
You are wrong kurtster. The government is not forcing you to do anything. It is strongly urging all citizens to adopt public health measures designed to protect everybody, especially the most vulnerable. It is enforcing restrictions in specific areas and for specific activities.
The state is the logical coordinator of the broad response to the pandemic. Much actual policy is being driven by medical professionals and experts. The state has in effect delegated or if you prefer decentralized control of the pandemic response to the relevant experts. The model still carries risk but I see no conflict with a libertarian approach to public policy.
Tell me about the cost of freedom. In order to slow the rate of vaccination in the name of 'freedom', how many additional fellow Americans are you willing to see die or get sick and risk long lasting symptoms? Soon 0.7 million Americans will have died. In 2022, mortalities could total over a million. In the context of American history, this pandemic is more destructive than the destruction wrought by several wars combined.
