interesting discussion.. something else seems to playing out here and that is the conflict between ideas of personal identity and social identity. for those like SirD, for whom personal identity is paramount, the vaccine is an intruder, a foreign body imposed upon the sanctity of the individual (literally injected into the body) by the power and influence of the wider society. It is variously painted as the instrument of a totalitarian regime, megalomaniacs hell-bent on global domination, or hostile foreign or even domestic governments. There is something about brave individuals standing up to collective wisdom and embedded power structures that would normally win my respect. If it weren't for the fact that this view of things is totally misplaced. Microbes really don't give a shit about artificial legal or cultural constructs of personal identity. They are just looking for suitable hosts, no matter what their hosts' political views are. At this level there is no sanctity of the individual. We are all just part of one very fluid and very dynamic ecosystem. Talking about personal rights and liberties only has meaning in a social context, i.e. rights and liberties are predicated on the wider society which gives them salience. But this is just the detritus on the flood, the little rafts of consciousness floating on a wild and chaotic sea, and kind of irrelevant in the middle of an epidemic. Championing your independence from society as the microbes take you down is really no victory for your liberty.
where does trust and credibility come in on this?
and the virus doesn't care about religious or political exemptions either (yet we see mandates and immediate exemptions for politics and religion)
i think he has already said that he will get vaccinated (or is willing to get vaccinated) obviously i wish that he would and would do almost anything to persuade him to do so that includes beer, food and conversation
in general if we see years of top down (and lateral) social smears and insults directed at those we disagree with, does it have an effect on credibility? (i have seen some video of crt followers reject white man's science, math, etc. - wtf does that even mean?)
if otherwise rational people aren't buying in, engaging via snark and insults may not be effective
some people are easier to persuade than others
overcoming bias, less than optimal decision making and tapping into a flexible acceptance process may require some time and effort
from experience, if i'm expecting to have a long term relationship with someone i ask: hey when is the last time you changed your mind on a major issue?
i think i've had very little influence online and much better results in person
interesting discussion.. something else seems to playing out here and that is the conflict between ideas of personal identity and social identity.
for those like SirD, for whom personal identity is paramount, the vaccine is an intruder, a foreign body imposed upon the sanctity of the individual (literally injected into the body) by the power and influence of the wider society. It is variously painted as the instrument of a totalitarian regime, megalomaniacs hell-bent on global domination, or hostile foreign or even domestic governments. There is something about brave individuals standing up to collective wisdom and embedded power structures that would normally win my respect.
If it weren't for the fact that this view of things is totally misplaced. Microbes really don't give a shit about artificial legal or cultural constructs of personal identity. They are just looking for suitable hosts, no matter what their hosts' political views are. At this level there is no sanctity of the individual. We are all just part of one very fluid and very dynamic ecosystem.
Talking about personal rights and liberties only has meaning in a social context, i.e. rights and liberties are predicated on the wider society which gives them salience. But this is just the detritus on the flood, the little rafts of consciousness floating on a wild and chaotic sea, and kind of irrelevant in the middle of an epidemic.
Championing your independence from society as the microbes take you down is really no victory for your liberty.
interesting discussion.. something else seems to playing out here and that is the conflict between ideas of personal identity and social identity.
for those like SirD, for whom personal identity is paramount, the vaccine is an intruder, a foreign body imposed upon the sanctity of the individual (literally injected into the body) by the power and influence of the wider society. It is variously painted as the instrument of a totalitarian regime, megalomaniacs hell-bent on global domination, or hostile foreign or even domestic governments. There is something about brave individuals standing up to collective wisdom and embedded power structures that would normally win my respect.
If it weren't for the fact that this view of things is totally misplaced. Microbes really don't give a shit about artificial legal or cultural constructs of personal identity. They are just looking for suitable hosts, no matter what their hosts' political views are. At this level there is no sanctity of the individual. We are all just part of one very fluid and very dynamic ecosystem.
Talking about personal rights and liberties only has meaning in a social context, i.e. rights and liberties are predicated on the wider society which gives them salience. But this is just the detritus on the flood, the little rafts of consciousness floating on a wild and chaotic sea, and kind of irrelevant in the middle of an epidemic.
Championing your independence from society as the microbes take you down is really no victory for your liberty.
interesting discussion.. something else seems to playing out here and that is the conflict between ideas of personal identity and social identity.
for those like SirD, for whom personal identity is paramount, the vaccine is an intruder, a foreign body imposed upon the sanctity of the individual (literally injected into the body) by the power and influence of the wider society. It is variously painted as the instrument of a totalitarian regime, megalomaniacs hell-bent on global domination, or hostile foreign or even domestic governments. There is something about brave individuals standing up to collective wisdom and embedded power structures that would normally win my respect.
If it weren't for the fact that this view of things is totally misplaced. Microbes really don't give a shit about artificial legal or cultural constructs of personal identity. They are just looking for suitable hosts, no matter what their hosts' political views are. At this level there is no sanctity of the individual. We are all just part of one very fluid and very dynamic ecosystem.
Talking about personal rights and liberties only has meaning in a social context, i.e. rights and liberties are predicated on the wider society which gives them salience. But this is just the detritus on the flood, the little rafts of consciousness floating on a wild and chaotic sea, and kind of irrelevant in the middle of an epidemic.
Championing your independence from society as the microbes take you down is really no victory for your liberty.
immune systems and their responses to natural infection and vaccination can and do vary, it is a spectrum
obviously age and co-morbidities play a huge role in those responses
natural infection produces a soup of antibodies against many parts of the whole virus versus vaccination antibodies which are focused on the spike protein/business end
in the older or immune compromised individuals natural exposure has a much higher risk of undesirable outcomes than do vaccinations
challenges? not everyone knows that they may have a co-morbidity and once youâre exposed to covid itâs probably too late
if we look at the data case fatality rate we see it grows exponentially (example: the leap from 60-64 to 65+ is about 4x and thereâs long covid too)
you will be exposed to covid so the question becomes: what is your strategy? postponing the inevitable? letting someone else decide for you? speak with your doctor regarding and implementing a risk strategy
most countries are coming to grips with the reality and are using best practices to influence the outcome
do what you can to encourage vaccination, especially in the most vulnerable crowd (say 40 and up) and prep your medical facilities to handle expected flows and be willing to adjust your strategy accordingly
Dammit!... don't you know facts and reason are kurtster's Kryptonite?
The C-19 virus reminds me of music, mathematics and physical exercise. The more you practice, the better you get.
Getting sick contributes to immunity. One vaccine injection contributes to immunity. An additional injection enhances immunity. Now, a 'booster shot' increases/restores immunity. Exposure to new variants should also increase/restore immunity.
When the arm feels sore and one feels 'down' after receiving a vaccine injection, think of the body running laps or trail circuits.
Rich western democracies possess the wealth and means to crank out annual 'booster shots' for everybody.
What is missing? The SARS2 virus is a respiratory ailment. Health outcomes matter and yet nobody is talking about physical exercise and the clear, obvious advantage to an active lifestyle. Apparently trashing the temple of the soul in modern Christian America is perfectly acceptable behaviour. Tragic. Perhaps not so tragic if one owns shares in opioid producers and distributors.
interesting discussion.. something else seems to playing out here and that is the conflict between ideas of personal identity and social identity.
for those like SirD, for whom personal identity is paramount, the vaccine is an intruder, a foreign body imposed upon the sanctity of the individual (literally injected into the body) by the power and influence of the wider society. It is variously painted as the instrument of a totalitarian regime, megalomaniacs hell-bent on global domination, or hostile foreign or even domestic governments. There is something about brave individuals standing up to collective wisdom and embedded power structures that would normally win my respect.
If it weren't for the fact that this view of things is totally misplaced. Microbes really don't give a shit about artificial legal or cultural constructs of personal identity. They are just looking for suitable hosts, no matter what their hosts' political views are. At this level there is no sanctity of the individual. We are all just part of one very fluid and very dynamic ecosystem.
Talking about personal rights and liberties only has meaning in a social context, i.e. rights and liberties are predicated on the wider society which gives them salience. But this is just the detritus on the flood, the little rafts of consciousness floating on a wild and chaotic sea, and kind of irrelevant in the middle of an epidemic.
Championing your independence from society as the microbes take you down is really no victory for your liberty.
And I will add one more thought ... It is quite clear now that even with a 100% vaccination rate, CV is not going away and people are still going to become infected and some are still going to die. We must find a way to live with it as has been brought up by miamiz a short while ago.
a couple of thoughts as i understand it
immune systems and their responses to natural infection and vaccination can and do vary, it is a spectrum obviously age and co-morbidities play a huge role in those responses natural infection produces a soup of antibodies against many parts of the whole virus versus vaccination antibodies which are focused on the spike protein/business end in the older or immune compromised individuals natural exposure has a much higher risk of undesirable outcomes than do vaccinations challenges? not everyone knows that they may have a co-morbidity and once you’re exposed to covid it’s probably too late if we look at the data case fatality rate we see it grows exponentially (example: the leap from 60-64 to 65+ is about 4x and there’s long covid too) you will be exposed to covid so the question becomes: what is your strategy? postponing the inevitable? letting someone else decide for you? speak with your doctor regarding and implementing a risk strategy most countries are coming to grips with the reality and are using best practices to influence the outcome do what you can to encourage vaccination, especially in the most vulnerable crowd (say 40 and up) and prep your medical facilities to handle expected flows and be willing to adjust your strategy accordingly
Had my covid shots at rite aid for free through my insurance. Was surprised they paid since they always find an excuse any other time that suits them. Now the booster is here and thinking I should get that too. Too many health problems to mention and it gives me peace of mind.
bigger picture? turns out getting vaccinated is a lot less expensive than getting covid
IMO, deliberately keeping it out of discussions involving vaccination makes these discussions invalid and only drives the thought that there are ulterior motives on the part of those who keep it from even being mentioned, let alone discussed. It is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate. There are no other alternatives. Alternatives are not permitted to be discussed. Sounds authoritarian to me and only spurs resistance rather than ameliorate it.
The idea that ânatural immunityâ is somehow superior to immunity acquired through vaccines has real-world consequences, too, particularly when it is applied to the pandemic. First and foremost, this idea is used by advocates as an intentional argument to oppose vaccine mandates of any kind, as weâve seen many times. The line of argument goes like this: People with previous COVID-19 infection should not be required to get the vaccine as a condition of their jobs, to enter public spaces, or for any other reason. Again, this ignores the science showing that post-infection immunity is far more variable and might not be as long lasting as vaccine-induced immunity, as well as the logistical problems of documenting who has and hasnât had COVID-19 for the purposes of such mandates.
And in a previous discussion of the unmentionable and suppressed topic the logistical problem was pointed out as well.
I think that you and most everyone else is getting this point wrong and attaching your own interpretation to the point that I am trying to make.
It is not about not getting vaccinated and holding out for infection and survival after the fact. It is simply recognizing that having natural immunity after infection does have meaning and value and needs to be included in the overall discussion as valid and meaningful in the big picture. Instead it is summarily dismissed and those who dare to mention it get trashed. And that is everywhere in the media, not just here. Why is that ? You and others keep asking what is it that I fear ? Well I have to ask you and all the others who insist that I am afraid, why are you all afraid of its mere mention let alone discussing it ?
What is the basis of your fear for simply acknowledging it ?
Is natural immunity post infection not real ? Is there no acceptable science to support its existence ?
IMO, deliberately keeping it out of discussions involving vaccination makes these discussions invalid and only drives the thought that there are ulterior motives on the part of those who keep it from even being mentioned, let alone discussed. It is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate. There are no other alternatives. Alternatives are not permitted to be discussed. Sounds authoritarian to me and only spurs resistance rather than ameliorate it.
And I will add one more thought ... It is quite clear now that even with a 100% vaccination rate, CV is not going away and people are still going to become infected and some are still going to die. We must find a way to live with it as has been brought up by miamiz a short while ago.
I haven't seen anyone saying that post-infection immunity doesn't have value, but you really should read the link Richard posted that sets out not only the limitations of post-infection immunity as something to count on but also how the anti-vax crowd hanging onto it misrepresents the situation and has negative impacts on public health. I know you aren't anti-vax but why do you keep harping on this as some sort of major issue? Yeah, people who recover from covid have some immunity that doesn't appear to be as good as vaccine-induced immunity and is a far riskier path. We know from Sweden that allowing more people to get covid is not a successful way to bring overall cases, deaths, and other impacts down in the short term or in the long term.
Had my covid shots at rite aid for free through my insurance. Was surprised they paid since they always find an excuse any other time that suits them. Now the booster is here and thinking I should get that too. Too many health problems to mention and it gives me peace of mind.
It is quite simple really once they develop an effective and safe vaccine that I feel comfortable with, then I will make the personal choice to decide if I want to put that substance in my body. It is a race between that and when the government forces my company against their will to fire me since they have already have in place an excellent plan since we work from home that in order to come back to the office we must supply vaccine proof. This works fine for me as I will wait until an effective suitable vaccine which normally takes years to develop; not one year and then take that when I am comfortable. I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides. There is no convincing me to get vaccinated, this is a non starter. I will proceed with a private health matter when I damn well please thank you and am quite unconcerned with your or anyone else's opinion on what I do with my body. If this makes me selfish and a bad person, that's just your opinion man. If I am forced with threat of unemployment to take a vaccine I am uncomfortable with, it will be with force and coercion and will never forgive all of those who have no issue with that. I am more disappointed in my fellow citizens who are comfortable with the force and coercion than the government that is imposing it. I expect this from governments, not the people. This is so upsetting to me, I really have nothing more to say about the subject. There is nothing more to be said.
The questions of being forced to do something and the actual safety of the thing are separate questions. One can oppose the former while acknowledging the latter. In this sense I am far more radical than you: I don't need an elaborate conspiracy theory (and forgive me, I can't keep track of which you've fallen for) to grant that you should have complete autonomy over your own body. The involvement of governments is irrelevant to the question of the safety of vaccines. Utterly. It seems to figure mightily in your decision, but you should be honest with yourself here—you would oppose a government mandate to breathe. Me breathing (or getting vaxxed and encouraging others to do so) is not acquiescence to an evil totalitarian regime, it's my decision to maximize my time with grandchildren. If governments forbade vaccines I'd break the law to get them for myself and those I care about. If you're basing your opposition to the current vaccines on how long it took to develop them then you need to examine your libertarian bona fides. The process has historically taken a long time because of bureaucratic foot-dragging by agencies like the FDA. In this case they demonstrated that in stark terms by showing how little of that process actually benefits the public. They streamlined the process to grant approval much quicker than usual because so many lives were being lost to their usual obstruction. We need to generalize this, not fear it as an aberration. This should have been normal all along. If you're concerned about the technology involved you could learn about it—from the people who developed it and studied it for decades before it came to bear on this crisis. People, in short, who actually know what they're talking about. That information has never been more accessible. If you want to know it there is literally no excuse not to know it. And even before you do you will have the right to determine what happens within your own body. Even an informed decision need not be a rational one, you just need to own it...and its consequences. You and Kurt keep bringing up natural immunity as if it should change the urgency of the need to immunize people. Sure, they can acquire immunity by getting sick and risking all that comes with it.
If you want a safe alternative to vaccines that absolutely is not it. A vaccine that killed anything close to 1% of the people it was given to and makes them sick for weeks even if they recover would be rejected as horribly dangerous. Encouraging that avenue would be irresponsible in the extreme. Do recovered covid patients need vaccines? Not as badly as the unvaxxed, but it will reduce risk of reinfection. You want this to be a simple yes/no? It's biology, it's complicated. I've heard the numbers of recovered covid patients used as a reason to lift protective measures. Look at the case numbers! It isn't working. Eventually it will but a lot more people will die to get there via artisanal free-range vaccination.
I think that you and most everyone else is getting this point wrong and attaching your own interpretation to the point that I am trying to make.
It is not about not getting vaccinated and holding out for infection and survival after the fact. It is simply recognizing that having natural immunity after infection does have meaning and value and needs to be included in the overall discussion as valid and meaningful in the big picture. Instead it is summarily dismissed and those who dare to mention it get trashed. And that is everywhere in the media, not just here. Why is that ? You and others keep asking what is it that I fear ? Well I have to ask you and all the others who insist that I am afraid, why are you all afraid of its mere mention let alone discussing it ?
What is the basis of your fear for simply acknowledging it ?
Is natural immunity post infection not real ? Is there no acceptable science to support its existence ?
IMO, deliberately keeping it out of discussions involving vaccination makes these discussions invalid and only drives the thought that there are ulterior motives on the part of those who keep it from even being mentioned, let alone discussed. It is vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate. There are no other alternatives. Alternatives are not permitted to be discussed. Sounds authoritarian to me and only spurs resistance rather than ameliorate it.
And I will add one more thought ... It is quite clear now that even with a 100% vaccination rate, CV is not going away and people are still going to become infected and some are still going to die. We must find a way to live with it as has been brought up by miamiz a short while ago.
While in Iceland, the grocery stores were selling home COVID tests for about $5. Compared to the states, that’s a lot cheaper.
heard they're around $7 us here ($14 for a box of two) i was given a few boxes of binax tests (two per box) they were retailing around $20 at the time i haven't tested in a few weeks just using my oximeter, thermometer and noggometer
The following is attributed to Jeff Shuren, M.D., J.D., director of FDAâs Center for Devices and Radiological Health
Today, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued an emergency use authorization (EUA) for the ACON Laboratories Flowflex COVID-19 Home Test, an over-the-counter (OTC) COVID-19 antigen test, which adds to the growing list of tests that can be used at home without a prescription. This action highlights our continued commitment to increasing the availability of appropriately accurate and reliable OTC tests to meet public health needs and increase access to testing for consumers.
Todayâs authorization for the ACON Laboratories Flowflex COVID-19 Home Test should significantly increase the availability of rapid, at-home tests and is expected to double rapid at-home testing capacity in the U.S. over the next several weeks. By years end, the manufacturer plans to produce more than 100 million tests per month, and this number will rise to 200 million per month by February 2022.
Since March 2020, the FDA has authorized more than 400 COVID-19 tests and sample collection devices, including authorizations for rapid, OTC at-home tests. The FDA considers at-home COVID-19 diagnostic tests to be a high priority and we have continued to prioritize their review given their public health importance.
Most antigen tests for at-home use are authorized for serial testing, or testing the same individual more than once within a few days. These authorizations followed the announcement of a streamlined approach to help facilitate the authorization of rapid tests for use with serial testing programs, which has increased consumer access to testing. Notably, based on the data provided for asymptomatic individuals, the ACON Laboratories Flowflex COVID-19 Home Test does not require serial testing. Todayâs authorization will facilitate even greater access and testing capacity.
The FDA wants to remind patients that all tests can experience false negative and false positive results. Individuals with positive results should self-isolate and seek additional care from their health care provider. Individuals who test negative and experience COVID-like symptoms should follow up with their health care provider as negative results do not rule out a COVID-19 infection.
We believe at-home diagnostic tests play a critical role in the fight against COVID-19. We will continue to offer support and expertise to help with the development of appropriately accurate and reliable tests, and to facilitate increased access to tests for all Americans.
âNatural immunityâ versus the vaccine for COVID-19 Antivaxxers have long appealed to ânatural immunityâ as being somehow inherently superior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is apparently âartificialâ. This is a trope that comes from alternative medicine concepts about purity and contamination that is now endangering us in the age of the pandemic.
The bottom line: Contrary to the narrative being pushed, for COVID-19 ânatural immunityâ is not superior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is less variable and more reliable. Even if it were, yet again, I must emphasize that vaccine-induced immunity has a key advantage over post-infection immunity. It doesnât require you to suffer through the illness and face the risks of severe disease and death from the disease to acquire it.
Thanks for the link. Pretty clear article. Given the anti-lockdown narrative that covid will turn into something like seasonal flu that we will just learn to live with, the odds are against you if you depend on post-infection immunity to keep you from dying or long-term consequences.
It is quite simple really once they develop an effective and safe vaccine that I feel comfortable with, then I will make the personal choice to decide if I want to put that substance in my body. It is a race between that and when the government forces my company against their will to fire me since they have already have in place an excellent plan since we work from home that in order to come back to the office we must supply vaccine proof. This works fine for me as I will wait until an effective suitable vaccine which normally takes years to develop; not one year and then take that when I am comfortable. I am also waiting for the inevitable addition of natural immunity that has been acquired by those that have had covid rightfully achieve the same status as the ineffective against immunity present vaccination provides. There is no convincing me to get vaccinated, this is a non starter. I will proceed with a private health matter when I damn well please thank you and am quite unconcerned with your or anyone else's opinion on what I do with my body. If this makes me selfish and a bad person, that's just your opinion man. If I am forced with threat of unemployment to take a vaccine I am uncomfortable with, it will be with force and coercion and will never forgive all of those who have no issue with that. I am more disappointed in my fellow citizens who are comfortable with the force and coercion than the government that is imposing it. I expect this from governments, not the people. This is so upsetting to me, I really have nothing more to say about the subject. There is nothing more to be said.
Oh, I thought when you wrote:
There are many vaccine hesitant people who are concerned about mrna technology and the ticking time bomb of microscopic blood clots. Those who truly are concerned about the health and well being of us all navigating through this pandemic would instead of ridiculing, mocking and attempting to take away the liberties of these people instead be promoting alternatives to mrna to complete the objective of increased vaccination rates of the general public. Scorn, derision, force and coercion is no way to achieve a goal when there are other alternatives
you were actually interested in non-mocking information to navigate through the pandemic. I don't understand why you are uncomfortable with mRNA vaccines when there is strong biochemical understanding why they are safe, not to mention the millions of test cases around the world demonstrating their safety, but anyway, I presented a little information on the alternatives and it turns out you don't really have any intention of acquiring information to make a decision to get vaccinated. Ok then.