The primary reason wages are so low for illegals is because they are illegal. Establishing a guest worker program will raise wages because once legal, the workers can demand more money because there is no one behind them who is illegal and can undercut them. We can do this without amnesty and without a path to citizenship. I have no problems with a guest worker program as long as those who do not sign up and are caught are deported.
We agree on the policy. I don't think it will impact wages much. I do think it will improve the overall situation just by virtue of having a reasonable set of enforceable rules. I think illegal activities tend to be inherently inefficient, they appear efficient by skirting the rules and not paying for the services they use (actually driving up the cost of most enforcement programs).
I'm saying that in California in particular, illegals have quarmed these formerly excellent paying non union construction jobs. Carpentry, drywall, masonry and painting to name a few. I'm married to a displaced California painter. Her ex won a suit against a former employer over being replaced by illegals, via age discrimination. My father is a licensed architect for the state of California. I have much first hand knowledge of this.
We are not talking about union jobs. A good non union painter in SoCal made $35 per hour and up without being in a union. Non union carpenters averaged $25 and up for years. These jobs have been taken over by the illegals. There are some RPeeps who have made similar comments to this effect over the years.
And let's call them what they are, illegal. Undocumented is bs. Either you're legal or you're not. Sorry if the truth hurts anyone's feelings on this, not.
I used to be able to charge $75/hour for AutoCAD work. There weren't many people with the tools or skills to do the work and I was able to pick and chose not only the work but the customers. Times were good. Then ITT started graduating a lot of people with basic AutoCAD skills and Computers got cheaper. I had to drop my rates to stay competitive. Then the customers started deciding that if people would work cheap enough, they would be okay with lots of rework and oversight as long as they didn't have to pay more than about $15/hour. So I stopped doing that work and went back to school.
My competition wasn't illegal, but the lesson is similar. No one is guaranteed a wage for life. Things change, markets evolve and so must its players.
What people are willing to pay for food drives what the cost of production must be. The piece I linked to earlier showed farmers offering $160/day for workers and not being able to get any takers. Illegal workers are just responding to a market condition that is ultimately driven by the customer. Our government is the one who should be making policy that supports a safe and reasonable workplace, not structuring the competitive climate.
So where were all the workers that needed jobs? This article is from last year. We are having the same debate in the state right now. "tough on immigration" policies have caused a shortage of farm workers here. The result hasn't been higher wages and more Americans back at work in the field. It has caused crops rotting in the fields, and ruin for farmers. So now that we know this isn't working, how about some reasonable discussion of a guest worker program?Let's get people to come do work, then go back home without fear of being locked out of the country. Perhaps if we reduced the barrier to entry under acceptable circumstances and allowed more free movement across the borders we could have better compliance with the rules, fewer problems with illegals and more resources available to address the fewer trying to game the system and stay here improperly.
kurtster wrote:
The primary reason wages are so low for illegals is because they are illegal. Establishing a guest worker program will raise wages because once legal, the workers can demand more money because there is no one behind them who is illegal and can undercut them. We can do this without amnesty and without a path to citizenship. I have no problems with a guest worker program as long as those who do not sign up and are caught are deported.
Are you sure you've identified the correct scapegoat on this issue? Are you saying undocumented construction workers come into a unionized construction site and chase away all the unionized workers, scabbing their jobs forcing the construction company to pay them lower wages? Or have "right to work" laws and other lobbying efforts on behalf of construction company owners eager to maximize profits created an environment where demand for unionized workers has dried up and demand for undocumented laborers willing to work for peanuts has increased?
I'm saying that in California in particular, illegals have quarmed these formerly excellent paying non union construction jobs. Carpentry, drywall, masonry and painting to name a few. I'm married to a displaced California painter. Her ex won a suit against a former employer over being replaced by illegals, via age discrimination. My father is a licensed architect for the state of California. I have much first hand knowledge of this.
We are not talking about union jobs. A good non union painter in SoCal made $35 per hour and up without being in a union. Non union carpenters averaged $25 and up for years. These jobs have been taken over by the illegals. There are some RPeeps who have made similar comments to this effect over the years.
And let's call them what they are, illegal. Undocumented is bs. Either you're legal or you're not. Sorry if the truth hurts anyone's feelings on this, not.
In addition each type of crop requires unique knowledge on how to pick/harvest that particular crop at a productive pace. Tomatoes are different than apples which are different t,Han lettuce, etc.
Shade tobacco pickers were required to pick a minimum of 100 bents a day (a bent is the distance between two of the array of poles that hold up the tent cloth that shades the tobacco from direct sunlight, approx. 33 feet apart). That represents somewhere between thirty and forty thousand leaves a day, that had to be carefully picked (without bruising the leaf) and carefully stacked in pads of 6-12 leaves for a dragger to come by and pick up for the drying shed. Some fast pickers were able to pick up to 200 bents a day (I never made it to 200, came close a few times).
There were essentially two techniques used to pick the leaves off the plant: "fan" picking, or "butterfly". In "fan" technique, you placed your palm on the top surface of the leaf while grabbing the stem with your thumb and pressing downward. In the "butterfly" technique, you placed your palms on the underside of the leaves and gently curled your fingers and thumb around the edges of the leaf until your hand almost closed around it, and snapped the leaf stem off the plant. Slow pickers who were not likely to last the season would use the fan technique with one hand and stack their leaves into a pad held in the other hand. You had to take three leaves from each plant at a time (the rest were left for the next "pick" the following week). Fast pickers tended to favor the butterfly technique, and would pick nine to twelve leaves at a time (distributed in both hands) before combining them into a pad deposited on the ground for the draggers. Do the math; in an eight hour day with half hour for lunch and two ten minute coffee breaks, you had 25 thousand seconds in your work day. You also had down time moving from one row to the next, and riding a bus from one field to the next (pickers trying to make 200 bents would often run to their next row and would be the first ones off the bus at the new field). So you had about a half a second or less to harvest each leaf. If you spent more than one second on each plant, you'd never pick anywhere near the limit.
Edit: This old photo shows boys performing the first "pick" of the season. The plants were fairly short in early July, and you were not allowed to stand. You had to scoot backwards down the row on your butt (but you had a lap to assemble your pad in). They marked a line on your forearm 14 inches from your fingertips; any leaves shorter than that were discarded.
By the end of the day, these boys would have the hairs on their head stuck together with tobacco plant residue; their hands would be covered with a dark, gummy mixture of this residue and dirt. Their clothing would also have a layer of this sticky substance on it.
Harvesting produce is extremely hard work and these days few Americans would stoop to do the work (pun intended). In addition each type of crop requires unique knowledge on how to pick/harvest that particular crop at a productive pace. Tomatoes are different than apples which are different t,Han lettuce, etc.
No disagreement, that's why we need a guest worker program.
How about we pay our food harvesters a real working wage so that Americans might be willing to do the work. I hear so much as to how everyone is willing to pay higher gas prices to keep demand down. So how about we pay higher food prices to reflect a living wage for legal farm hands ? When I was a kid, our crops were picked by Americans. I picked fruit as a kid in the summer several times for extra money.
Ceasar Chavez who oganized the farm labor in California in the 60's did so for Americans not illegals. Rememeber the California Table Grape Boycott ?
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
This is a lot more than just about farm labor. They have stolen all the traditional entry level jobs from American youth. If we deported all the illegals our unemployment problem would be solved. Who do you want working ? Americans or illegals ?
So where were all the workers that needed jobs? This article is from last year. We are having the same debate in the state right now. "tough on immigration" policies have caused a shortage of farm workers here. The result hasn't been higher wages and more Americans back at work in the field. It has caused crops rotting in the fields, and ruin for farmers. So now that we know this isn't working, how about some reasonable discussion of a guest worker program? Let's get people to come do work, then go back home without fear of being locked out of the country. Perhaps if we reduced the barrier to entry under acceptable circumstances and allowed more free movement across the borders we could have better compliance with the rules, fewer problems with illegals and more resources available to address the fewer trying to game the system and stay here improperly.
Harvesting produce is extremely hard work and these days few Americans would stoop to do the work (pun intended).
In addition each type of crop requires unique knowledge on how to pick/harvest that particular crop at a productive pace. Tomatoes are different than apples which are different t,Han lettuce, etc.
How about we pay our food harvesters a real working wage so that Americans might be willing to do the work. I hear so much as to how everyone is willing to pay higher gas prices to keep demand down. So how about we pay higher food prices to reflect a living wage for legal farm hands ? When I was a kid, our crops were picked by Americans. I picked fruit as a kid in the summer several times for extra money.
Ceasar Chavez who oganized the farm labor in California in the 60's did so for Americans not illegals. Rememeber the California Table Grape Boycott ?
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
This is a lot more than just about farm labor. They have stolen all the traditional entry level jobs from American youth. If we deported all the illegals our unemployment problem would be solved. Who do you want working ? Americans or illegals ?
Even after deploying 105 prison inmates this week to help pick apples, Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire says growers still need from 3,000 to 4,000 workers to help harvest before the season’s first major freeze.
“We’re sitting on the potential of having the third-largest crop, at around 105 million boxes, and we can’t get them picked,” Gregoire said in an interview.
The Democratic governor defended the plan to dispatch the male offenders to an orchard in Eastern Washington, where they began work Monday, earning $8.67 an hour.
She called it “a one-time deal” but said the nation’s top apple-producing state had little choice when growers could not find enough workers, even after advertising jobs with pay of $120 to $150 per day.
So where were all the workers that needed jobs? This article is from last year. We are having the same debate in the state right now. "tough on immigration" policies have caused a shortage of farm workers here. The result hasn't been higher wages and more Americans back at work in the field. It has caused crops rotting in the fields, and ruin for farmers. So now that we know this isn't working, how about some reasonable discussion of a guest worker program? Let's get people to come do work, then go back home without fear of being locked out of the country. Perhaps if we reduced the barrier to entry under acceptable circumstances and allowed more free movement across the borders we could have better compliance with the rules, fewer problems with illegals and more resources available to address the fewer trying to game the system and stay here improperly.
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
Are you sure you've identified the correct scapegoat on this issue? Are you saying undocumented construction workers come into a unionized construction site and chase away all the unionized workers, scabbing their jobs forcing the construction company to pay them lower wages? Or have "right to work" laws and other lobbying efforts on behalf of construction company owners eager to maximize profits created an environment where demand for unionized workers has dried up and demand for undocumented laborers willing to work for peanuts has increased?
It sounds good, but it's not reality. I think our food is too cheap, and we all throw a lot of it away, won't eat an apple with a dent, etc... but I'm the only person I know who feels that way, and even I like my fruit perfect. Commercial farming, we're addicted, perhaps. So, this is where we are. Farmers need workers, and Mexicans are the only people they can find willing to do it. I'm not making that up. You can say how it was in your day, but kids now won't do it. That's just the facts. Maybe there were more neighborhood farmers back then. But these are things that come from the top. Firing poor illegals won't help anyone and certainly won't increase wages for anyone. How can we do anything to raise wages for farm workers when we don't have unions anymore. It's just not possible. The middle class wages in Wisconson will be reduced if teacher's salaries are reduced. If the educated workers can't expect to be paid a middle class wage, and job security, no laborer can expect it either. Not without a union they can't. People are so fearful that there is one union guy lazing around, or getting a good retirement, that they're ready to throw their own wages and security down the drain. It's pathetic, if you really think about it. You say that people are willing to pay more for gas. I've never heard anything like that, so I don't know.
My apologies for the when I was a kid stuff. I'm finding it hard to keep out of my comments, but the reality of that is what it was like then versus now is no longer relevant. I'll work harder to avoid it.
There are hardly any family farms anymore. Its a big box operation now. Kids will never really work on farms again, even that is being legislated out with new farm labor laws. Kids won't even get off the couch anymore, so its a moot point.
I'll disagree with the part about firing illegals won't increase wages. It certainly will in the construction business. If we can just get a simple guest worker program going, it will solve a ton of problems. Wages will be one of them.
The primary reason wages are so low for illegals is because they are illegal. Establishing a guest worker program will raise wages because once legal, the workers can demand more money because there is no one behind them who is illegal and can undercut them. We can do this without amnesty and without a path to citizenship. I have no problems with a guest worker program as long as those who do not sign up and are caught are deported.
Your thoughts about where all the unions went. They are primarily the casualty of all the mergers and leveraged buyouts that started in the 70's IMO. As companies were bought up, union contracts became void under the new ownership. I don't think that in the beginning of these buyouts union busting was a goal. Buying up a company for diversification was more the goal. The steel companies were the first big ones to try and diversify to save their butts. They bought up businesses they had no business in running, it was outside of their experience and under poor management were run into the ground or sold off.
But union busting sure became a big part of the buyouts later on. Namely because of the pension burdens of the old union employees, more so than the wages. The federal government had to start a whole new agency to handle all these unfunded pensions that got dumped on the government in the process of these buyouts. I forget the name. This is probably where big business first got the idea that they could get the gov to bail them out of mistakes and ugly situations. Now we are seeing a similar thing with pensions and benefits going on in the public sector, some 20 years after the first round from the private sector. The first round was about the same time as the Savings and Loan crisis, in which again, the gov bailed out the banks by buying up foreclosed properties. It took 10 years to sort that out. The Resolute Trust Fund was the org that managed all of that and rather successfully.
The US Census stopped counting farmers in this country in like, 1995 because there were so few of them. As a skill, it is basically dead in this country. Our food is produced on immense, industrial farms owned by immense, greedy corporations who pay their employees shit. These same corporations now own not only the congress and the white house, but the supreme court as well.
Folks, we are screwed, blued and tattooed. It was fun while it lasted.
I would say that having cheap food is a good thing. If corporations are greedy and pay their employees poorly, then surely you can see why people need some entity to represent them, so they can be treated fairly. So what happened to all the unions? Reagan is what happened to the unions. Boy! That one lazy union guy. We sure showed him.
It sounds good, but it's not reality. Farmers need workers, and Mexicans are the only people they can find willing to do it. I'm not making that up. You can say how it was in your day, but kids now won't do it. That's just the facts. Maybe there were more neighborhood farmers back then. But these are things that come from the top. Firing poor illegals won't help anyone and certainly won't increase wages for anyone. How can we do anything to raise wages for farm workers when we don't have unions anymore. It's just not possible. The middle class wages in Wisconson will be reduced if teacher's salaries are reduced. If the educated workers can't expect to be paid a middle class wage, and job security, no laborer can expect it either. Not without a union they can't. People are so fearful that there is one union guy lazing around, or getting a good retirement, that they're ready to throw their own wages and security down the drain. It's pathetic, if you really think about it. You say that people are willing to pay more for gas. I've never heard anything like that, so I don't know.
kurtster wrote:
How about we pay our food harvesters a real working wage so that Americans might be willing to do the work. I hear so much as to how everyone is willing to pay higher gas prices to keep demand down. So how about we pay higher food prices to reflect a living wage for legal farm hands ? When I was a kid, our crops were picked by Americans. I picked fruit as a kid in the summer several times for extra money.
Ceasar Chavez who oganized the farm labor in California in the 60's did so for Americans not illegals. Rememeber the California Table Grape Boycott ?
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
This is a lot more than just about farm labor. They have stolen all the traditional entry level jobs from American youth. If we deported all the illegals our unemployment problem would be solved. Who do you want working ? Americans or illegals ?
The US Census stopped counting farmers in this country in like, 1995 because there were so few of them. As a skill, it is basically dead in this country. Our food is produced on immense, industrial farms owned by immense, greedy corporations who pay their employees shit. These same corporations now own not only the congress and the white house, but the supreme court as well.
Folks, we are screwed, blued and tattooed. It was fun while it lasted.
It sounds good, but it's not reality. I think our food is too cheap, and we all throw a lot of it away, won't eat an apple with a dent, etc... but I'm the only person I know who feels that way, and even I like my fruit perfect. Commercial farming, we're addicted, perhaps. So, this is where we are. Farmers need workers, and Mexicans are the only people they can find willing to do it. I'm not making that up. You can say how it was in your day, but kids now won't do it. That's just the facts. Maybe there were more neighborhood farmers back then. But these are things that come from the top. Firing poor illegals won't help anyone and certainly won't increase wages for anyone. How can we do anything to raise wages for farm workers when we don't have unions anymore. It's just not possible. The middle class wages in Wisconson will be reduced if teacher's salaries are reduced. If the educated workers can't expect to be paid a middle class wage, and job security, no laborer can expect it either. Not without a union they can't. People are so fearful that there is one union guy lazing around, or getting a good retirement, that they're ready to throw their own wages and security down the drain. It's pathetic, if you really think about it. You say that people are willing to pay more for gas. I've never heard anything like that, so I don't know.
kurtster wrote:
How about we pay our food harvesters a real working wage so that Americans might be willing to do the work. I hear so much as to how everyone is willing to pay higher gas prices to keep demand down. So how about we pay higher food prices to reflect a living wage for legal farm hands ? When I was a kid, our crops were picked by Americans. I picked fruit as a kid in the summer several times for extra money.
Ceasar Chavez who oganized the farm labor in California in the 60's did so for Americans not illegals. Rememeber the California Table Grape Boycott ?
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
This is a lot more than just about farm labor. They have stolen all the traditional entry level jobs from American youth. If we deported all the illegals our unemployment problem would be solved. Who do you want working ? Americans or illegals ?
One minute Fox is complaining that illegals don't pay taxes, and that is so SCARY. The next minute Fox writes a SCARY story that illegals are paying taxes but taking the deductions the rest of us take for granted. So SCARY.
If a man is doing a hard hard day's labor to feed his kids, I really don't care if he's illegal or not. I know almost nothing about you, but I'd bet my life you know nothing of working 12 hour days picking our food in 100 degree weather. Complaining that he might get a tax break is discusting to everything I was raised to believe about our country, and freedom and fairness. Shame on you for judging people who do the hard work you do not have the hutzpah yourself to even try.
Donald Trump declared brankruptcy 4 times, avoiding all the taxes he owed. If you're waiting for Rupert Murdoch to write a story to get you outraged about that, don't hold your breath. Fox will never tell you that illegals pay billions into the social security system, and it's money they will never get back. We keep it.
You need to get your head out of Fox. Fox is designed to feed you the false premise that rich people want you to be rich. Rich people couldn't care less about you. They feel about you exactly the way you feel about the guy making a lower than minimum wage job: Does he have an extra $5 a week that he's taking as a deduction to feed his kid? Outrageous! If he wants more money he should go get better work! Who can't save for retirement and needs social security? Slackers, that's who. Romney gives each of his children $100 million dollars, which is nice. But then the King says he's got to shill out 10 million in taxes - for what! - to put a bunch of slackers like you and me through public school, or pay an emergency healthcare. It's outrageous. Vote Romney!
How about we pay our food harvesters a real working wage so that Americans might be willing to do the work. I hear so much as to how everyone is willing to pay higher gas prices to keep demand down. So how about we pay higher food prices to reflect a living wage for legal farm hands ? When I was a kid, our crops were picked by Americans. I picked fruit as a kid in the summer several times for extra money.
Ceasar Chavez who oganized the farm labor in California in the 60's did so for Americans not illegals. Rememeber the California Table Grape Boycott ?
And what about the illegals who take away good paying construction trade jobs that used to pay on average $25 to $35 an hour and up away from Americans. No one talks about that.
This is a lot more than just about farm labor. They have stolen all the traditional entry level jobs from American youth. If we deported all the illegals our unemployment problem would be solved. Who do you want working ? Americans or illegals ?
